quote:

Originally posted by Erich:

quote:

A 125gr SJHP bullet is the time tested .357 Magnum "man-stopper" hands down.

So say Marshall & Sanow. Out of a 4" tube, that might be true. Out of a 2.5" . . . I get skeptical about why a bullet travelling slower than a 9mm 124-gr but with much more blast, fewer rounds on-board and slower reloads is held to be such a great thing.
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I don't have a 2 1/2" Magnum to chronograph the loads, but the old Remington 125 gr Mid-velocity magnum averages 1074 fps from my little 340, and the full strength load averages 1442 fps from my 4" 66. I would expect the full power load to load to average about 1250 fps from a 2 1/2" barrel, which is about what the 9mm 124 gr +P+ loads are doing; those 9mm loads seem to be very effective.

Soft points have their place, but this probably isn't it.

I absolutely agree with you about the other disadvantages of a snub .357.

I don't disagree: I should have been more precise.

Last time I chrono'd RA9TA 127-gr +P+ from a Glock 19, I got 1350 fps. I guess maybe I shouldn't have put "slower" in my post, though - there are certainly 124-gr 9mms that are slower than full-house .357 125-grainers from a 2.5" tube. But there are also 9x19s that are heavier and faster from a gun that's the same size (and lighter). I should have said, "more or less the same," I suppose.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with such a load in a 9x19 . . . I note don't hear the same peanut-gallery hoo-haw praising it that I do about the 125-gr .357. And I'd note for those generating the hoo-haw that what a .357 bullet does at 1400 fps from a 4" tube is likely to be somewhat different than what it does at 1250 fps from a 2.5" gun.

Macht nichts. Both loads under consideration are probably fine (see my signature line ). I do get concerned when someone talks about the 125-grain .357 Mag loads as if they're the answer to every problem from every barrel-length - they're not, and I'd be troubled if someone less informed were to read such a statement and take it as gospel.

I've gone to 158s for year round carry in my 4" Model 65.

I prefer Remington's Express load with the 158 semi-jacketed hollow point. The front half of this bullet is all lead with an agressive cavity.

While I have no data to back it up, it seems reasonable to assume the large amount of hollow, soft lead nose will expand rapidly on contact while the longer (than a 125) copper shank behind it will drive it through to the vitals while still not overpenetrating dramatically.

I wonder if anyone out there (Stephen A. Camp maybe?) has info on gel penetration tests on this ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by Erich:
I agree that there's nothing wrong with such a load in a 9x19 . . . I note don't hear the same peanut-gallery hoo-haw praising it that I do about the 125-gr .357. And I'd note for those generating the hoo-haw that what a .357 bullet does at 1400 fps from a 4" tube is likely to be somewhat different than what it does at 1250 fps from a 2.5" gun.

Macht nichts. Both loads under consideration are probably fine (see my signature line ). I do get concerned when someone talks about the 125-grain .357 Mag loads as if they're the answer to every problem from every barrel-length - they're not, and I'd be troubled if someone less informed were to read such a statement and take it as gospel.

I'm as big a fan of the 125 gr. .357 as you'll find and I agree with what you say, Erich. I'm certainly not going to bash the 9mm. When good ammo is used the 9mm is right in there with all the big boys. In fact, if I carried a full size auto, I would probably use a 9mm. While it isn't quite up to the sizzle that the .357 gets in full size guns, you're right that the 9mm and the .357 are oftentimes quite similar in smaller guns and the real tie breaker between them ought to be a preference for one type of gun (auto vs. revolver) over the other. I like revolvers, so I have a Taurus 605 (and yes, it's loaded with 125 gr. Remingtons ) in my pocket right now.

Groo here
The rem 125 sjhp is not built like a 9mm bullet.
The lead is soft and almost half of it is out
side the jacket so that if the round is
fast enough to expand,it will very well.
The speed window for deformation is not as large with an auto bullet that must also withstand the trip from the mag up the ramp and in the barrel. This is not to say that modern auto bullets aren't good, just that they are different.
The softer the bullet at the same speed the
more likely it will expand and or the faster it
will expand.

quote:

Originally posted by Wyatt Earp:
I've gone to 158s for year round carry in my 4" Model 65.

I prefer Remington's Express load with the 158 semi-jacketed hollow point. The front half of this bullet is all lead with an agressive cavity.

While I have no data to back it up, it seems reasonable to assume the large amount of hollow, soft lead nose will expand rapidly on contact while the longer (than a 125) copper shank behind it will drive it through to the vitals while still not overpenetrating dramatically.

I wonder if anyone out there (Stephen A. Camp maybe?) has info on gel penetration tests on this ammo.

Here is the Federal 158gr jhp from this link

357MAG Fed JHP |158@1200, 27.1 mv, 505 E|BR 16.5", 0.50", 3.24cu|CL 15.9", 0.64", 5.12cu|avg 4.18, 6.07 re, 0.69

Eric, agree with you that this day and age little rational argument can be made in favor of snubby revolvers. I won't be suggesting that local cops surrended their glocks and armed themselves with wheelguns any more than I'd be recommending bow and arrows for duty carry. Science has spoken - cops should stick to their glocks.

But civilian self defense isn't really driven by calculation. It's rather cultural thing than scientific. That's the only reason why a wheelgun loaded with 125 gr. SJHP's is on my belt when I am out walking my dog in a dark alley. Truth is that any person who shoots thousands of rounds a year in countless drills and matches (you know the type, right? ), if it comes to that will dispatch a group of thugs with any reasonable weapon available to him. And people who choose to carry with little or no skills at arms are anyway better of with a can of maze and a cell phone.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by rozenbem:
Eric, agree with you that this day and age little rational argument can be made in favor of snubby revolvers. I won't be suggesting that local cops surrended their glocks and armed themselves with wheelguns any more than I'd be recommending bow and arrows for duty carry. Science has spoken - cops should stick to their glocks.

I don't agree (politely ofcourse). No one thinks cops should trade in their full size autos for a snubby, but I would contend that the snubby is the perfect back up to the big gun. Snubbys have certain advantages that autos don't. I pack a snubby over my P3AT whenever it's pragmatic.

quote:

Originally posted by pps:
Here is the Federal 158gr jhp from this link

357MAG Fed JHP |158@1200, 27.1 mv, 505 E|BR 16.5", 0.50", 3.24cu|CL 15.9", 0.64", 5.12cu|avg 4.18, 6.07 re, 0.69

Nice. 16.5" in bare and 15.9" in clothed gelatin. Even if the Remington load penetrates an inch less due to the softer, more exposed lead nose, that's enough to run enyone through regardless of which angle of entry the bullet takes.

I don't see a barrel length mentioned there . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Erich:
I don't see a barrel length mentioned there . . .

I didn't see the barrel length either, but that muzzle velocity looks like something one could reasonably expect from a 4" barrel...of course I know the whole saying about assumptions....

I would only use a 158grLSWC if it were hollow pointed. The 125grJSP will likely not expand from the 2.5", a 125gr JHP would be a better choice IMO. The 135gr SpeerGd & WW145grSTHP are also good performers in short bbls.

I think the Federal round that was so effective on the street from a 4-inch gun was the Federal #357B - a 125gr JHP (semi-jacketed LHP). I use it in a 340PD and get 1170 fps. I was told that this would be about an 82% stopper. From my 640-3 I get about 1245 fps, and I'm told this would be a 91% stopper.
Both of these estimates for this round came from people familiar with the Marshall and Sanow methods. I've read that some prefer the Remington 125gr round because the scalloped jacket fragments the bullet in an effective way.

Thanks, Nitesite & Erich for insightful posts. I'd ignored part of the original question in posting earlier, but the original question was whether semi-wadcutters or jacketed soft points would be best as a self defense round. And I have to say, along with the consensus I've read here, that the answer to that question is, "false".

I have a mixed answer. The 125gr Jacketed .357 Magnum round is a proven man stopper when fired from a 4" barrel. There are decades of data to back that up. As for the 2.5" barrel revolver, for the most part you won't get the same velocity so a 158gr LSWC is probably a better choice for that revolver. If you are only going to buy one of them I would buy the 158gr Lead round.