quote:

Originally posted by dannyeller:
Thank you all for the posts. After sneaking the Harley past my wife I am very limited on any gun purchases (Got away with it for about a month, dirty rotten insurance agent let the cat out of the bag). When I get a firearm I keep it. The few that I have let go I have regretted. So the very few I can now buy both my kids and I will be stuck with. 38-44HD45... Your post about your issues with the 40cal Kahr are what I am looking for. Most of my shooting with the 40 has been with my G22 and G23. I have fired some very hot loads through them and so far have not been bothered by anything but the noise. What made the Kahr in 40cal less usable, the shorter grip of the PM or the general recoil? If it was the recoil, what loads were you using? My G23 using any of the Corbon 40cal loads recoils with authority but not beyond usability.

Hey Danny; sorry I didn't see this earlier. The problem I had with the P40 Covert was primarily due to the very short, narrow grip frame, I believe. Please understand, I am not very recoil-sensitive. I enjoy recoil less than I used to before I got some arthritis in my hands, but I still enjoy shooting the big boomers sometimes. However, the very narrow and very short frame of the PMs just is not enough for me to hold onto well enough under .40 Cal. recoil. Shot-to-shot recovery times were too long to suit me. As I recall, it did not much matter what loads I shot in it, the results were about the same. I know I shot it with Federal AE ball and WW white-box stuff, as well as some Mag-Safe Mini-Glock loads and some Cor-Bon 135gr. JHPs. (The Cor-Bon REALLY jumped!) I hated to trade it off, since it was probably the most accurate Kahr I ever owned, but I knew I wouldn't carry it much. You may find that a PM40 is just the cat's meow for you, however.

quote:

Originally posted by dannyeller:
So until I have to shoot someone and have a failure I'll have to go with the extensive testing that has been done with the Glasers and MagSafes. From the one shot stops in real world shootings to the live animal tests with these type of rounds they must be considered the smart choice when the issues of concealed carry places limits on caliber and type of weapon. But I am surprised at the consternation by many in this forum on their use when the evidence of effectiveness in both real world shootings and live animal trials have been so overwhelming.

I'm curious about the live animal testing reference. Are you referring to the Strasbourg tests conducted some years ago on alpine goats? Dean Speir had published some interesting information on them, as he's seen the full report. Unlike some, who don't believe the tests were real, he tracked down information to suggest that they took place including someone who helped finance them. However in reading the whole report, he believes that individuals have made more of them than is there as the scope of the tests was limited to unobstructed lung shots and the report itself says that the applications of the data are very limited. Where others have challenged the frangibles in relation to that is owing to fact that to get to the lungs a round has to get past the ribs unless it slips past.

I'm not sure if there have been other animal tests, but that's the one most associated with support for frangibles. It was somewhat misrepresented by some of the makers of frangibles as well as in the popular gun press.

The biggest proponents of "real world" data are Marshall and Sanow. The search function will turn up some problems with/questions about their data over the years and makes many shooters tend take their multiple volumes on supposed real world data with a grain of salt (or a shaker). To be fair, not all criticism of them is justified and there is a great deal of animosity between different researchers that clouds many issues.

Which isn't to beat up on you for your choice of carry load, as everyone is free to do as they wish. Many others have simply chosen differently, and the short answer as to dislike for frangibles by so many here has been distrust of the mechanisms by which the frangibles would have to work and of the research in the "pro" camp. Since frangibles usually can't guarantee adequate penetration, they have to rely on (depending on who's promoting them): temporary cavities, "shock"/"energy dump", or some combination there of. These are problematic wounding mechanisms in terms of supporting evidence compared to the relatively well documented idea of "poke a hole someplace vital". Since a failure in an actual gunfight can be fatal, a great many folks prefer to go with conventional ammunition of one type or another.

The other usual objection is cost. The odd bullet weights make finding practice stand ins difficult and the rounds themselves are rather pricey to both carry and practice with. Many prefer to carry and practice with the exact same ammunition anyway. With autos, there's the problem of the cost of firing 200 or so rounds of it to guarantee function/feed (if not more if one has a lot of mags for use, a seach mag should probably be used to feed at least 50 rounds before relying on it). Relatively few users of frangibles report on actually firing this many of them. I sometimes ask people if they've tested this many rounds in their carry gun (even revolvers can bind up because of bullet pull or other factors with certain loads, so even they need a fair number to be test fired). It's not to be smug that I sometimes inquire, but a legitimate curiousity as to how well "X" loading of frangible did in fact function in "Y" weapon. If you can afford to fire a regular diet of them, so much the better. The average user can't or won't, further limiting the application for most people. (My theory is that it is better to have a generic loading that one knows will work and is proficient with, preferably stockpiled in bulk, than a small sampling of a theoretically better load that hasn't been thoroughly tested and used in their particular firearms.)

Some people tend to be dismissive of them automatically, but I think that there's no reason they can't be discussed as there's always the chance that other people are aware of additional data not so far considered or generally known.

38-44HD45, Thank you very much for the info. Bottom line is that I am just going to have to try both before I figure it out. The Corbon 135s had a sharp rap to them in my G23 also. For some reason the 165s are a little less. Or at least they feel that way. Corbons have always been my favorite conventional load. I'll try the similar Tritons when I get a chance. How did the MagSafes shoot in relation to the sights? I'll probaly get one of the Kahrs next month. A local gunshop had the PM4043 and S&W 342PD in stock. The price was way to stiff or I would have bought the S&W right then. That is what I went in for. But knowing me that S&W revolver will taunt me until I go ahead and get one.

I really appreciate the conversations. I got a little spoiled being at Fort Bragg for so many years. Someone always had something I wanted to shoot and were willing to let me do a test drive. Now that I am in Tampa I'll have to do allot more research than before.

It has been awhile since I owned the little Kahr .40, but as I recall, the difference between POI with MagSafes and conventional weight bullets (135-165gr.) was negligible, unlike the case in pretty much any revolver. In my PM9, the POI for MagSafes is so near to that for 124-127gr. bullets that no hold corrections are really needed out to any reasonable range for the little gun, say to 15 yards or so. Nonetheless, I usually keep it loaded with Speer 124gr. Gold Dots in +P persuasion. I still own an MK-40 stainless, and in it, the same is true as to POA/POI. FWIW, the all-steel short .40 is quite controllable.

quote:

Originally posted by dannyeller:
I would like to try the 357mag MagSafe in it but I am confused as to why you can fire 180gr 357mags (why would you!!?) in the 342PD and not the lighter weights.

The 342 models are for .38 only. The 340 models are the .357 magnum version. The 342 has been discontinued due to the fact you can shoot either in the 340.

I stand corrected. A little misstep due to having a 642. Thanks for keeping me straight.

To Gatorfarmer: Your right about the Strasbourg test as being the one using the animals as one of my sources. And you are certainly right about the gun writers back stabbing each other. Before I joined the Army I got involved in the distribution of an Australian Military Style Rifle that used M16 mags. It has been about 30 years so the name of it escapes me but I think it was called the T6. It was kind of a cross between a AR-15 and a AR-180 using a three lug bolt. It was during the course of demonstrating and distributing the firearm that I met several prominent gun writers that were living in the Southern California area. I must say that I was not impressed by their affection or should I say the lack there of they showed each other. For the most part, they thought they were the holder of all gun knowledge and all of their contemporaries were idiots.

I am really enjoying the conversation and the wide range of views. Unlike the SoCal gun writers I do not think that "all" of those that disagree with me are idiots.

In relation to your user name; I've got a 2 1/2 foot gator living in the pond behind my house. He is already freaking my kid out by swimming over to watch him cut the grass. How long to I have before I've got to worry about my little boy mowing the back yard?

Re: Glazers

For a variety of reasons, I used them extensively for putting down a variety of animals on the farm. (Not all the critters were farm animals.) While effective on an unobstructed chest shot, this is not always available. I don't use it anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by dannyeller:
In relation to your user name; I've got a 2 1/2 foot gator living in the pond behind my house. He is already freaking my kid out by swimming over to watch him cut the grass. How long to I have before I've got to worry about my little boy mowing the back yard?

When he gets this big
[IMG][/IMG]

Actually your son will grow up faster than the gator. Just don't feed him to make him unafraid of humans. That is when the trouble starts.

Danny, was that australian rifle the Leader (mk1?).

Were you in the 82nd? SF?

I'd say a small gator is easier to deal with than a big one. I'd say now would be a good time to relocate it.

Thanks for starting a most interesting thread.

quote:

Originally posted by dannyeller:
In relation to your user name; I've got a 2 1/2 foot gator living in the pond behind my house. He is already freaking my kid out by swimming over to watch him cut the grass. How long to I have before I've got to worry about my little boy mowing the back yard?

I'm actually from Michigan and grew up far from alligators. The back story is that I used to sell accident insurance (for a company not named, but let's say there is a duck quack involved in marketing). We were given all purpose anecdotes to use to sell the stuff, along with the cancer policy. Instead of the usual by rote story about a family with cancer really being helped out (everyone was to tell the same story), I decided out of sarcasm to tell my own, which involved fictionally describing growing up on an alligator farm and why accident insurance was important in relation to those experiences. I thought someone would "get" that all the sales stories were crap and that this was a protest of sorts agaisnt the practice. Instead I was encouraged and told to keep at it, and people actually believed it. Strange world. Later a friend of mine thought alligator farming would be a great get rich quick scheme and I followed along with the idea for a bit, thinking he meant to do it in Florida, unfortunately he thought we could do it in Michigan, not realizing that reptiles are cold blooded. Business schools need more classes on biology. Anyway, I needed a user name that I could remember, thus...

Anyway, if you ask in the lounge some other folks live far closer to alligators. I'm told that even the small ones can bite and not to play with them as some are wont to do.

Anyway, here's the link to Dean Speir's article on the Strasbourg tests, which I referenced earlier but forgot to include the link for. (If nothing else, this will help the next person using the search function hopefully.) http://www.thegunzone.com/strasbourg.html

OK, I've already screwed up. I've never had an alligator before so the first thing I did once I noticed it had taken up residence was aggravate it. I quickly learned two things.

1. Little gators are lighting fast.
2. They have more teeth than a Doberman.

So now I use a stick.

As far as my time at Bragg I was in a PSYOP unit. We were the Low Speed-High Drag part of Special OPS. Although during my first eight years I spent as a Loudspeaker Paratrooper in some capacity, I did things far more Hoo-ah than I ever did as an Infantryman. Ever turn on a 350 watt manpack loudspeaker during a firefight at night? That can get exciting.

We were always getting attached out to other units and since there were not that many of us you pretty much were going to get involve in any squabbles that came along. I was attached to 1st Ranger Bn and jumped into Tocumen, Panama during JUST CAUSE. We later air assaulted into Patilla Airport via CH47s to relieve the Seals that got beat up there. That's not saying they are not tough guys, it's just that they got sent to do a job that required one or two Companies of Rangers to do.

I was attached to the 82nd during the 1st Gulf War and was involve in the taking of Talil Airbase, also the blowing up of Kamasiha Ammo Supply Point. And yes we gassed ourselves during that OP. There were hundreds of Rockets marked High Explosive but actually contained Sarin Nerve Gas.

After being home for about a week several of us were sent back out to the mountains of Northern Iraq with 10th SF Group to herd the Kurds back out of the mountains and into camps that could be better supported. Those mountains up by the Turkish and Iran border are beautiful!

I was with 3rd Army on what I thought was a desk job but found myself freezing my rear end off in Afghanistan starting in February 2002. I left as the weather was warming up. I was home for about a month and went back into the sand box and ultimately found myself going all over Baghdad in a soft toped unarmored no doored HMMWVE starting in April 2003. The weather was pretty nice but quickly turned into 130F degree plus. I just took it for granted that I was going to die in all that body armor but I didn't. Although my wife insist I boiled off several IQ points. I've been back to Baghdad two more times.

But jumping out of airplanes for about 20 of my 25 years in the Army started catching up to me and I had to drop my retirement packet. Now I'm one of those evil Defense contractors the Democrats keep talking about.

I did do some time as a Reserve Deputy Sheriff but that didn't synch with my deployment schedule. That was my after Army dream job but it didn't work out with my lower back and the $27K they pay.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dannyeller,

Thanks for your service, bro. It sounds like you had an interesting hitch.