Last night I happened to find myself involved in a domestic gone bad with shots fired at the responding officers. I was off to one side and had a very good line of sight on the malefactor. The police captain on the scene, who knows me, told me to “take the shot.”

Since I’d been reading these forums, I was uncomfortable using my Model 60 loaded with 158 grain Hornady JHP/XTP. I decided my Winchester 94 30-30 was the weapon of choice, so I left the scene and drove home to get my rifle. Half way home, I realized I had previously sold my Winchester. I then settled for my S&W 67 using 125 grain Golden Saber +P. By the time I returned to the scene, I had lost the advantage.

The above scenario was a dream (no doubt brought on by reading these forums). While some Glock owners may disagree, I do not think there is a dream firearm or ammunition. Concealment restricts our choices even more. J-frames are easily concealed defensive weapons. I strongly believe in the “halo effect” which adds another advantage to carrying an effective concealed firearm.

What’s the best ammunition? There’s plenty of evidence on these forums to make me think there isn’t an answer to this. Since most armed confrontations don’t require firing, almost any ammo would probably suffice. I think the best answer is to carry what performs well in the particular firearm, and what performs well in the shooter’s hands.
If a situation degrades to the point of having to fire, the first 1-2 shots are the most important. Cranking out +P from an uncontrolled snub nose, may scare someone, but are not a substitute for well placed slow moving bullets.

I don’t like a lot of muzzle flash either. I have a Brown Bess flintlock that I use when I want a lot of flash.

I think I’m going to continue reading and gleaning what I can from others. I’m particularly interested in Osprey’s test. I don’t expect his airweight to fall apart, but find his comments enlightening. I think I need to conduct my own tests as well, so I see my range time increasing.

I have been away from the practice of regular carry for several years, so I am open to advice.

When military 38 special was modified in the 1970s from the M1943 ball (130 grain FMJ) to PGU-12 (same 130 grain FMJ seated deeper with a grain of powder added to the load); the consensus was the combination entered the +P realm. As PGU-12 was used for the 50 round USAF qualifications, the small arms training guys were convinced it was causing more maintenance issues with the M15s. A range gun was fired a lot, perhaps 100 rounds a day at least 5 days a week; you get my drift.

I have to ask myself if there is some sort of reference loading wise in the 38 special world. What about the wadcutter target load? Has that changed much and is it not consistently loaded across the board by the major manufacturers? And if it has not, what does that say about what pressures are appropriate for long term endurance and performance in a medium frame size revolver?

Hmm...well placed slow movers, I am with Pocketman38 with that thought.

Pocketman38, I'll take Evan Marshall's advice that muzzle flash is a range issue, not a gunfight issue, being that he's been in several. You're right about controllability. Shoot the most powerful thing that you can control and try to increase the amount of power as you practice and gain proficiency.

quote:

In the late 1970's the industry changed the methods of testing FACTORY ammo and for revolvers went from long unvented barrels to 4" vented barrels. The previous unrealistic published velocities naturally dropped down to realistic numbers that everyday shooters of factory ammo could expect to achieve. But, some interpret that as lowering the power of the loads, when it was just giving honest results.

That may be true for some shooters but that's not what I look at. It's not the velocity that tells us the current load data and current Factory ammo is anemic, it's the charges in the loading manuals that tells us.

For example, back in the day:
.38 Special 158gr LSWC .358"
HS-6 -- 7.0gr Starting charge -- 8.0gr Max charge
For a 2" barrel with the same bullet 8.5gr HS-6 is recommended.

Today's Load data:
.38 Special 158gr LSWC .358"
HS-6 -- 5.7gr Starting charge -- 6.3gr Max charge

So as you see, it's not the velocity or the manner in which velocity is measured that tells me the current load data is anemic, it's the charge numbers telling me the loads are anemic.

ArchAngel,

There is a related thread in Reloading section "old .38 special data" (wish we could just joint the two). Obviously this is a subject of considerable interest to some members.

Paul and I had agreed to join forces, and compile a comprehensive comparison between older and newer loading recipes. We'll do that but I think we all know what the answer will be...

There still is a loosely related question if old and new ammo are loaded to different levels. This one we (or at least some of us ) can actually get definitive answers for.

Mike

quote:

...I'll take Evan Marshall's advice that muzzle flash is a range issue, not a gunfight issue...

If anyone would know, Marshall would. Yes, muzzle flash isn't much of an issue outdoors in daylight, but it could interfere with a second shot at night. My point was, and it may not be completely valid, is excess fire out the muzzle of a short barrel is indicative of wasted power. Of course, no matter what load is being used, there will be some flash.

quote:

So as you see, it's not the velocity or the manner in which velocity is measured that tells me the current load data is anemic, it's the charge numbers telling me the loads are anemic.

Arch, are those factory loads you quote or for reloads? If reloads, how does that apply to factory loads? I'm asking because I don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by Pocketman38:

quote:

...I'll take Evan Marshall's advice that muzzle flash is a range issue, not a gunfight issue...

If anyone would know, Marshall would. Yes, muzzle flash isn't much of an issue outdoors in daylight, but it could interfere with a second shot at night. My point was, and it may not be completely valid, is excess fire out the muzzle of a short barrel is indicative of wasted power.

That and sight radius are why I prefer longer barrels if possible. More powerful ammo such as .357s as opposed to +p .38s will yield a considerable increase in power out of even a two inch barrel. Obviously an increase in recoil, muzzle flash, and muzzle blast are the price for that power. Only you can decide if it's worth it or not. I use .357s in my snubbies. E M has addressed muzzle flash many times and I can only recall him saying it's a non-issue. In my infantry days I would sometimes line my sights up on muzzle flashes during sustained contacts while training. I don't think that type of tactic would be of much use in the civilian world. 99% of fights would be over in seconds. There you have it, one man's opinion. If you think it's worth what you paid for it, no big deal.