I know zero about the load, but I've long wondered about something. I always see bullets listed in the 115-125 grain weight class, then seemingly nothing until the 147's? Is this due to sectional density/accuracy issues. Or is there an inherent difficulty at making them feed when certain weights are used? For the life of me, I can't seem to get a handle on why that wide a hole exists in the listings?

Could it be possible that the 147-gr weight was chosen to give sub-sonic velocities even at MAX pressures?

Perhaps bullets in the 130-140 range still broke the sound barrier and therefore weren't good for use with suppressors.

Just a WAG.....

I have no clue, but Federal made a 135-grain HS for a while in 9x19.

The Germans developed the 9mm Parabellum and standardized on the 123-125 grain ball load. In WWII, due to material shortages, they developed the mild steel core bullet and standardized it at 115 grains.

The heavy ball loads of 135-147 grains are relatively recent developments in an attempt to get more stopping power in 9mm pistol bullets. I believe they represent the SAAMI limits for form factor and chamber pressures.

Your right, there should be other bullet weights. Having recently purchased 9MM Federal Hydrashocks 135gr PDA I know they do exist. If 135 Gold Dots are good for the .38 then they should be just as good in the 9MM. What about the .38 Super loads with a 130gr bullet as the standard load? I don't see a 130-135grain bullet offered by Hornady,Sierra or Speer. Maybe they will offer them at some point. BTW I agree that the 147gr bullet started out as a subsonic load. They sure are fun to shoot in the 900fps range. Bruce

quote:

If 135 Gold Dots are good for the .38 then they should be just as good in the 9MM. What about the .38 Super loads with a 130gr bullet as the standard load?

As good as the 9mm Luger (9X19) is, it would have been nice ballistically to have a little longer case (9X21mm). Just ask anybody who shoots the 9X21 cartridge in competition.

The Luger cartridge was originally a 7.65X19mm and was rejected by the German Army as too weak. The largest case that would fit into the existing gun at the time was 9X19mm (this was 1903).

The German designers had it right: about 124 grains is the optimum size for the Luger case, unless you have a special purpose in mind (like subsonic).

As much as we brag on the 9mm Luger, the .38 Special in fact achieves greater power with heavier bullets, simply because the 9mm case runs out of room.

We sometimes forget that the "modern" 9mm Luger was actually designed to save the Luger company in 1903, and if we started with a blank piece of paper today it might be different.

The .40 S&W is essentially the Luger 9 but "a silly millimeter bigger(10 mm)." And it shoots bullets up to 180 grains.

OKFC05 I will agree with you on all points. Sometimes everything works out just right due to necessity. However we can't over look the fact that the .38 works at 15,000psi and the 9MM at 30,000psi. We won't be loading the 9MM with a 158LSWC but within it's operating pressure it is a very efficient cartridge. Bruce

Thanks Gents!,
I think due to your efforts, I may be (just) starting to understand the caliber a bit better.

For the record there was or is AFIAK
no "Luger" arms company. The Luger
P-08 was designed by George Luger, but it
was made for the German Army by DWM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Waffen_und_Munitionsfabriken

as well as Mauser. The bullet weight was arrived at in or for WWI, not WWII.

The 147 gr. bullet weight was developed for
SMG with suppressors loaded to sub-sonic velocities. The usual loads you will find are around 1,000 FPS Double Tap offers the 147 gr. Gold DOts at 1100 FPS just under supersonic.

Some believe the CZ 75 and variants with the 1 in 9.7 inches twist rate have are a superior platform with the greater twist rate for heavier bullets than most other 9x19 platforms
with a standard and slower twist rate..

Randall

The gent who suggested the 147 gr 9mm load was developed for use with suppressors is correct. The comment about subgun usage is suspect. Suppressed pistols for elimination of sentries-2 or 4 footed -is much more likely.

The generally accepted lower limit on 9mm bullet weight overseas seems to be 108 gr and may well be the original design.

As to the weight gap, 115/124 were the standard bullets until a requirement for subsonic ammunition developed. If there's no perceived need, why risk resources on speculation. For many years the only .38 bullets were 158 gr LRN and 148 gr wadcutters.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: WR Moore,

Once again, THANKS!
Sounds like a healthy dose of "don't fix it, if it ain't broke" was in play? The twist rate question is one I wondered about. My initial thought was that for some reason due to physics, the intermediate weights were unsuitable at the typical twist rates? (Still in learning mode!)

Can't dig through any relevant references just now but I was thinking that the 9mm originally featured the 115 grain bullet and used that bullet throughout World War I. Bullet weight was increased to 124 grains sometime in the 1930s, perhaps for greater efficiency in submachine guns.

Whether it is true or not I cannot say for sure, I was told a long time ago in a land far away, that the 147 grain 9mm was developed for this:
http://www.bellum.nu/armoury/SWMk22Mod0.html
And the later based on the 59.

Project Hush Puppy

I have always understood it backwards. Apparently the 124 grain bullet came first.

Here's a cool link on the 9mm gleaned from the Luger forum where it was kindly provided.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/intro9mm/

quote:

For the record there was or is AFIAK
no "Luger" arms company. The Luger
P-08 was designed by George Luger, but it
was made for the German Army by DWM

Georg Luger, an employee of Loewe & Co., took the Borchardt pistol as a starting point for designing the first pistols resembling what we would call a "Luger." He retained the toggle-locking action of the Borchardt, but replaced the Borchardt's bizarre mainspring and the large housing it necessitated with a leaf spring in the grip, improving the balance of the pistol. He also angled the grip for better pointability. A grip safety was added to the rear of the frame by 1904.

After making the changes described above, Loewe vigourously sought military contracts for production of the pistol. The first major success came in Switzerland, which adopted the Luger as its service pistol in 1900.

In an attempt to allay concerns about poor stopping power with such a small-caliber bullet, Georg Luger developed a second cartridge, the 9mm Parabellum. The 9mm Parabellum also goes by the names 9mm Luger and 9x19mm, and is distinct from a number of other cartridges that use the designation "9mm" in their names (such as 9mm short, 9mm Makarov, 9mm largo). The 9mm Parabellum cartridge cartridge case has the same base dimensions as the 7.65x23 Parabellum cartridge, but is not necked down, and is shorter, only 19mm long. A number of design changes to the Luger were made in the early 1900's, including replacing the leaf mainspring with a coil spring, and deleting the grip safety. Some pistols were produced with a lug to attach a shoulder stock. The so-called "new model" Luger of 1904 in caliber 9mm Parabellum was accepted by the German navy and later the army and designated the P08. Thereafter, German military sales accounted for the vast majority of Lugers ever produced.

In the pre-WWI period Lugers were produced by the German government arms factory in Erfurt as well as by Loewe's company, which was at that time named Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM). The DWM monogram or Erfurt Crown logo can be found on the toggle of the pistols they manufactured (usually... in the world of Luger markings there are always exceptions).