Over the years, I have read similar questions many times. My only answer is that (barring some physical problem), WHY? WHY? WHY? It doesn't make the least amount of sense when the same size guns can be had in MUCH more suitable calibers. Yet folks continue to carry these guns. I just don't undertand, unless possibly the gun was purchased for another reason (plinking), and had to be brought into service for self defense in an emergency or for financial reasons (can't afford a second gun).

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the general impression I've developed over the years is that the .22 mag. tends to be less accurate than the .22 lr.. Comments anyone? If that's the case It would perhaps negate any ballistic advantage that the cartridge would have by compromising accuracy, and leave little reason to justify it's existence.

I like my 351PD. It's accurate and a neat little gun.

From a handgun it will generate over a 42% one shot stop ratio on human targets, according to Marshall and Sanow.

So, I don't know if it's all that bad for self-defense. But you know it won't be as good as the other calibers the members have suggested.

However, it is a neat little gun and easy to shoot IMHO. Accuracy is very good in mine.

Oh, I forgot to mention that the .22 magnum velocity is about 1,000 ft./sec. out of a two inch barrel IIRC. Foot pounds in a rifle is about 295, so with a two inch barrel.....?

quote:

42% one shot stop ratio on human targets, according to Marshall and Sanow.

M&S throw out data if more than one shot was fired. So any data where the whole cylinder (or magazine for semi-auto's) was used and still failed to stop is simply thrown out. I would have liked to have seen this real world data.

I would try to talk any friend of mine out of using the 22mag for self defense.

A .22 LR and the .22 MAG are much more effective when shot out of a long gun with at least an 18-inch barrel. If you are looking for something with less recoil than a .38 Special handgun, Charter Arms manufactures a .32 MAG snub and Ruger makes one in a longer barrel. Smith dropped it's two models, unfortunately. I believe you will find the .32 MAG handgun ballistics much better than any .22 round from a short barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by RDak:
From a handgun it will generate over a 42% one shot stop ratio on human targets, according to Marshall and Sanow.

M&S also advise against using a .22 as a primary.

quote:

Originally posted by ladder13:
Have a friend looking to buy a 351PD and load it with 7 rounds of 22 mag. Comments?

He is very foolish.

quote:

...
From a handgun it will generate over a 42% one shot stop ratio on human targets, according to Marshall and Sanow.
...

I have all 3 of their books, and couldn't find that number. Can you give me a book & page number? More importantly, does that number come from just handguns, or from a mix of handguns and (mostly) rifles?
EDITED TO ADD:
I found it, page 351 of "Street Stoppers".
However, that is a calculated number and not based on actual shootings. It appears to be based on handgun-length barrels, although a 2" would drop the velocity even more, I'd worry some about failure to expand at a velocity so far below what the bullet was designed for. But, interesting...

There will always be someone who can point out a case where a 25 auto or something similar caused an assailant to drop like a rock.

I personally know several people who've been shot with such small calibers who didn't even know they'd been shot until they noticed blood.Several have literally walked into the emergency room.

In my opinion,anyone who carries a 22,25,32 must plan on being very lucky.The inconsistancy with that line of thought is that if they're going to be that lucky,why would they need to be armed at all.

I'd suggest not relying on the Marshall/Sanow data. (There's a reason it's vanished from even the gun mags...)

Other than actual trauma - ie destroying/damaging the heart, brain, spine or someone simply running out of blood - "stopping" is a psychological mechanism. What tends to happen, and can't be predicted, is that some people will drop with trifling wounds whereas others will get mad and throttle you.

Thus the key question is whether a bullet will penetrate deeply enough (and second have sufficient mass) to get to the brain. .22 Mags are light and fast, which means that they risk glancing off the skull. The best way to use them, if you have to, is to aim low for the soft squishy parts. This isn't a sure stop per se, but is painful and can result in blood loss. (Just hope that they aren't wearing a vest.)

Remember, the skull evolved to protect the brain, and does a pretty good job of it.

I don't know about the Smith revolvers, but the High Standards and NAA's will tend to keyhole, so I'm told will other Derringers. This makes a bad situation worse, as it ruins what penetration the .22 mag has.

Guns that are traditionally good "stoppers" tend to simply be bullets that go deep enough to hit vital things. Beyond that, a larger hole and great mass (to smash through bones and such) are nice.

Anything less than a 9mm/.38spl is probably a "squishy parts" gun and thus marginal. (Exceptions exist for the 7.62x25mm and some other exotics.)

It's a great rifle round.

Hello. Don't know if it is of use, but here's some of the very limited information I do have on the .22 Mag from a short-barrel handgun.


Fired from an old Hi-Standard .22 Magnum Derringer, this Winchester 40-gr. HP expanded to 0.29 x 0.31 x 0.24" tall with recovered bullet weight at 27.6-gr. It was fired into water and its average velocity was 1162 ft/sec.

Though it did better than I expected, I honestly believe that there are considerably better choices available for self-protection from a handgun.

Best.

I'd love to hear all the .22 Magnum naysayers explain this one.

South Carolina Trooper Mark Coates was killed in the line of duty by one shot from an NAA .22 LONG RIFLE mini revolver. Officer Coates had five center of mass hits on the perp with his .357 magnum revolver yet the perp lived. Officer Coates was wearing a vest yet died from one hit by a .22 LR.

Story

Does any here think shot placement is more important than caliber?

Hello. Yes, I have long said, "Placement is Power", but there are some calibers I feel a little luckier with than others. I leave decisions as to which to individuals w/o asking them to accept my choices. It is each individual's personal choice, those that have a choice.

It is sad that the shot under the armpit killed the trooper...regardless of caliber, but no two gunshot wounds are the same...at least according to what I've read and seen in post mortem reports. FWIW, a friend of mine was hit through the arm with a .380 ACP FMJ (no bone hit), entered his side just below the arm pit, traversed his chest cavity along the inner ribcage (no lungs or vessles hit, and no bones broken), exited below the armpit on the opposite side and then exited his other arm. No bones were hit anywhere! The bullet enter between ribs and exited the same way on the opposite side! He spent 3 days total in the hospital and that was mainly to make sure no infection took place! Sadly, the murdering shot to the trooper obviously punched something vital.

Worked another case in which a fellow severely miffed another (don't remember the reason) and was shot seven times in the chest with a .22 LR from a rifle. He was drunk to be sure but had to be restrained for medical attention. He lived, though I don't remember if he had any permanent problems or not.

In another instance, I interviewed a fellow sitting on a curb holding his head like he was sick. He was; he'd been hit through the heart (off-center) with a 148-gr. .38 Special wadcutter from a snub. He died 4 mins later in the ambulance but we'd gotten a vehicle desciption and suspect names.

Another fellow was being chased by a drunk with a knife. The "chasee" was running round and round his car which was parked in front of his house. His son pitched him a Raven .25 ACP which he shot over his shoulder w/o aiming or even looking. He hit the "chaser" smack dab in the heart with the FMJ round (don't remember brand) and he dropped dead right there!

Go figure.

I don't trust any handgun round very much but some I am more willing to bet on than others.

Go with what one has faith in and can shoot well. This is consistently been my position.
.22 Magnum is not on my own "short list" of cartridges for personal protection but may very well be the pick for others.

Best.

quote:

Originally posted by SmithNH:
I'd love to hear all the .22 Magnum naysayers explain this one.
Does any here think shot placement is more important than caliber?

I'll explain it. It's called "bad luck", in this case "very bad luck". People are sometimes killed by errant shots from pellet rifles too (that's why there are warnings in the manual), but it doesn't make them a good choice for self defense.

Shot placement alone won't win the day if the rounds being placed aren't capable of reliably reaching vital organs and doing serious damage to these organs when they do.