SEE PAGE TWO FOR CHRONO RESULTS FROM TEST BY NFRAME

Due to some narrow minded NFA regulations I don't own a submachine gun, and the government no longer lets me use their's. I would like to chrono these, but don't know what it would be safe to shoot them in, what do you think?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: stiab,

That Winchester box label "for use in sub-machine guns" does not indicate some super-duper powerful 9mm Parabellum load for use in submachine guns only.

What it indicates is that the powder charge and velocity is sufficient to reliably operate the mechanisms of blowback-operated submachinegun as well as pistols.

Pre-WWII 9mm ammunition loaded in the USA was considered underpowered for reliable use in blowback-operated guns. European 9mm ammo has long been suitable for both pistol and subgun use.

After WWII when surplus european submachine guns were available for military and police testing, it was discovered that commercial 9mm pistol ammo did not function reliably. The research resulted in loads that functioned better in the longer barrels and heavy breechblocks of subguns as well as pistols.

Your ammo is safe to use in pistols of course. I've shot many thousands of rounds of surplus ammo like that in Browning High Powers, Lugers, Walther P38s, Stars, Broomhandle C96s, Polish P35s, etc.

I think a 357 Ruger Blackhawk with a 9mm cylinder would hold them safely. Mine has a 4 5/8" barrel.
I'd chrono them if you want to send me a few.

Thanks for the info John, and thanks for the offer Grinder. I would like to chrono them locally, and just sold my Ruger SP101 in 9mm, maybe it would have been a good candidate.

John, are you saying that it would be OK to shoot these in any modern alloy frame 9mm, like a S&W 5943? What do you think the velocity would be, as an estimate?

Stiab,

You are welcome to shoot'em in any 9mm submachine gun from my collection. Just don't tell anyone, okay?



Mike

Glocks can eat subgun ammo easily, FWIW.

A year ago some guys at work and I were going to buy into some cheap 9mm submachinegun ammo from J&G Sales (manufactured by IMI if I recall). The salesperson specifically warned us not to buy it if it was to be used in conventional pistols because the primers were so much harder that it was unlikely we'd get positive ignition.

Pressure wasn't the problem, it was the primers.

quote:

Glocks can eat subgun ammo easily, FWIW.

I decided to post it over at GT and see if they agreed, and there was a mixed bag. Some said definitely yes and some said definitely no in the glock.

If you do decide to shoot it be sure to clean afterwards. That stuff looks like WWII vintage and is likely corrosive.

Let us know how it works if you do burn it up.

quote:

Originally posted by john traveler:
That Winchester box label "for use in sub-machine guns" does not indicate some super-duper powerful 9mm Parabellum load for use in submachine guns only.

What it indicates is that the powder charge and velocity is sufficient to reliably operate the mechanisms of blowback-operated submachinegun as well as pistols.

Pre-WWII 9mm ammunition loaded in the USA was considered underpowered for reliable use in blowback-operated guns. European 9mm ammo has long been suitable for both pistol and subgun use.

After WWII when surplus european submachine guns were available for military and police testing, it was discovered that commercial 9mm pistol ammo did not function reliably. The research resulted in loads that functioned better in the longer barrels and heavy breechblocks of subguns as well as pistols.

Your ammo is safe to use in pistols of course. I've shot many thousands of rounds of surplus ammo like that in Browning High Powers, Lugers, Walther P38s, Stars, Broomhandle C96s, Polish P35s, etc.

John's answer is correct. This ammo was all over the surplus market in the '60s and I put close to a case of it thru a period M39 at the time, before I'd acquired a chronograph.

Lee Jurras, of Super Vel fame, wrote an article in the March '72 SHOOTING TIMES, listing 9 mm Px data from his lab. The WRA load was very close to the S&W commercial offering at the time.

The July '69 Rifleman listed the WRA velocity out of a 4" Luger at 1169 fps.

The Dec.'63 Rifleman shows WCC'42 @ 1124fps, noting that it is non-corrosive non-mecuric primed.

If you have any qualms about shooting it-DON"T!

Hope this helps.

It's been many years since I've seen chronographed test results of surplus 9 mm Parabellum ammunition. As I recall (always a dangerous thing), european standards called for a 123 grain bullet at over 1100 fps in pistol length barrels. US standards were for 115 grain bullets at just over 1100 fps. The surplus German sintered iron bulet ammo which Lee Jurras wrote about in his 1972 Shooting Times article was to establish that chamber pressures were safe for ue in pistols, but the slightly slower powder for use in smg length barrels gave more flash and bang, thus giving the false impression that the ammo was too powerful in pistols. His tests proved that surplus smg ammo was safe for pistols, but often gave substandard (900-1100 pfs) velocities.

Update: in the late 1980s-early 1990s American Rifleman had a column warning shooters to not use a lot of specially-marked 9mm P ammo that was inadvertently released for surplus sales. The British-made ammo was definitely overpressure and not safe to use in pistols. The warning was for specific headstamps and markings which I do not recall.

All other surplus 9mm P ammo was declared safe for use in both pistols and carbine smg barrels.

quote:

The WRA load was very close to the S&W commercial offering at the time.

The July '69 Rifleman listed the WRA velocity out of a 4" Luger at 1169 fps.

I appreciate the information, but am not sure the basic question is being addressed. WRA simply stands for Winchester Repeating Arms, and I'm sure they made regular 9mm ammo in addition to this smg ammo. Are you saying that all WRA 9mm ammo was the same, whether labeled for smg or not?

Stiab,
Sorry my post wasn't as clear as it could have been.

The WRA I shot and the Jurras article pictured was the same white box you posted. It was identified as U.S.A. WWII, headstamped W.R.A.9mm. The average pressure was 32,300 psi. The S&W Fiochi 100gr. JHP load of 1970 vintage mentioned produced 32,100 psi. Jurras mentioned that the SAAMI max at the time was 33,000 psi. I wasn't referring to any other WRA ammo.

Good shooting.
Good shooting

Thanks for the clarification Homie, I'm going to shoot 5 rounds for chrono testing in my 3G S&W.

Steve,

I have a Blackhawk convertable that we can shoot some of that stuff through. Are you coming down any time soon?

Chris