Merwin Hulbert .38 (updated pictures)

Modelof1891 · #51 11-24-2009, 01:23 AM

Pocket Model .38 Folding Hammer

Modelof1891 · #52 12-01-2009, 11:14 PM

Merwin Hulbert 4th Model Frontier Army in DA with folding hammer and Pearl stocks.
The butt has J.G.H engraved on it. Researched but no ownership meaning for initials.

twaits · #53 12-02-2009, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modelof1891

Merwin Hulbert 4th Model Frontier Army in DA with folding hammer and Pearl stocks.
The butt has J.G.H engraved on it. Researched but no ownership meaning for initials.

Terry, thanks for posting this and the engraved one. Both are stunning MHs! Keep them coming if you have more

Modelof1891 · #54 12-02-2009, 10:37 PM

The .32 cal. 7shot M&H is made on the .38 frame. The Peters Cartridge Co. ammo is .32 Long for the M&H.

Modelof1891 · #55 12-02-2009, 10:59 PM

The M&H Pocket Army shown here is the short barrel 2nd Model .44-40. The first issue of the open top Pocket Army was made on the Frontier Type 2nd Model Frame, difference in the butt style. Sometimes called the skull crusher frame. Therefore, there was NO 1st Model Open Top Pocket Army.

Modelof1891 · #56 12-02-2009, 11:19 PM

This is the (small frame) of the Merwin Hulbert center fire. The number on the butt, cylinder and barrel all match 7938. The lone number under the left grip panel, on the frame, is 2963. The lone number is what I consider the serial number.
I found this little beauty about 20 years ago , in the box, with a full box of ammo. It was in Vermont.

Modelof1891 · #57 12-02-2009, 11:55 PM

This Merwin Hulbert .38 SA Pocket Model (still considered a small frame) is one of five known skull crusher frame, single action, with a trigger guard. There are some known Hopkins & Allen small frame .38's known but they do not have the skull crusher or birdshead frame and are not marked Merwin & Hulbert under the cylinder on the right frame.

twaits · #58 12-03-2009, 10:16 AM

Terry,

Outstanding stuff. Thanks so much. If more pics like this were on the MH forum I would visit it a lot more often.

I may have asked you before but what is your take on the lone second sideplate screw on my Dads blue one? Most MHs I see seem to have the middle screw and then TWO other screws on either side of the top of the sideplate, but his only has one.

Thanks again. I never get tired of seeing your fine examples of MHs!

-Erik

Modelof1891 · #59 12-03-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaits

Terry,

Outstanding stuff. Thanks so much. If more pics like this were on the MH forum I would visit it a lot more often.

I may have asked you before but what is your take on the lone second sideplate screw on my Dads blue one? Most MHs I see seem to have the middle screw and then TWO other screws on either side of the top of the sideplate, but his only has one.

Thanks again. I never get tired of seeing your fine examples of MHs!

-Erik

Erik

The single screw side plate is more common on the early serial numbered production. Art Phelps stated in his book on Merwins that this was somewhat rare, but more common on early .32's or .38's.
The .38's used two frames of great difference and around four variations. Notice the distance from the top side plate screw and the frame at the top at the hammer. You can tell the tall frames from the short.

Terry

Tom K · #60 12-16-2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaits

Terry,

Outstanding stuff. Thanks so much. If more pics like this were on the MH forum I would visit it a lot more often.

Erik, I just submitted a cranky post to the MH forum, asking for at least some screenshots of their CAD models. Maybe we can light a fire under them and get them to show something, anything that indicates that they're making progress. As it is now it's all just words, and pictures of the originals.

Merwin Hulbert & Co. Forum: How is production coming along

Modelof1891 · #61 12-25-2009, 09:16 AM

Twaits,
I posted more pictures in the History area under your Picture thread on the MerwinHulbertCo.com site.
Terry

twaits · #62 12-29-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modelof1891

Twaits,
I posted more pictures in the History area under your Picture thread on the MerwinHulbertCo.com site.
Terry

Thanks Terry! I haven't been over to that forum in a long time. I will go check it out.

Tom K · #63 02-03-2010, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom K

Erik, I just submitted a cranky post to the MH forum, asking for at least some screenshots of their CAD models. Maybe we can light a fire under them and get them to show something, anything that indicates that they're making progress. As it is now it's all just words, and pictures of the originals.

I'm reviving this old thread for those interested in the new Merwin Hulbert. I submitted a post complaining about a lack even CAD screenshots to indicate progress, and Montanian sent me one. Here's the thread I posted in:
Merwin Hulbert & Co. Forum: new Merwin production updates

And here's a copy of the screenshot:

So, looks like they really are making progress.

Tom K · #64 02-03-2010, 11:59 AM

Montanian emailed me a few more screenshots. Cool!

bellevance · #65 02-03-2010, 12:11 PM

There's a nice clip from an old "Gunsmoke" episode posted over in the Lounge of a bad guy handling an MH. Worth checking out:

What pistol is this?

twaits · #66 02-03-2010, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellevance

There's a nice clip from an old "Gunsmoke" episode posted over in the Lounge of a bad guy handling an MH. Worth checking out:

What pistol is this?

Notice that the guy seems to be checking to make sure it's UN-loaded

If it were loaded you would see the bullets being held back against the recoil sheild.

CNCforLife · #67 02-03-2010, 01:23 PM

Does anyone else think this Merwin Hulbert revival is a ruse? I have been watching their site (along with several others they have) and can't believe that folks are willing to believe what is posted and place a deposit. As mentioned on the site, the excuse provided concerning CATIA (CAD) did not pass the smell test. Anyone paying attention to our economy would quickly figure out that there is plenty of manufacturing capacity in the US (this will be countered that only .001% of shops are capable of producing our incredibly complicated and demanding parts). Montanian sounds like a politician and that should worry the most trusting souls...

bellevance · #68 02-03-2010, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaits

Notice that the guy seems to be checking to make sure it's UN-loaded

If it were loaded you would see the bullets being held back against the recoil sheild.

Maybe he's double-checking to make sure the cartridges are all unfired.

Modelof1891 · #69 02-03-2010, 11:02 PM

BUT...If there were cartridges in that gun, it would not close!!!

twaits · #70 02-04-2010, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modelof1891

BUT...If there were cartridges in that gun, it would not close!!!

EXACTLY. The gun is bone dry, EMPTY

Montanian · #71 02-04-2010, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNCforLife

Does anyone else think this Merwin Hulbert revival is a ruse? I have been watching their site (along with several others they have) and can't believe that folks are willing to believe what is posted and place a deposit. As mentioned on the site, the excuse provided concerning CATIA (CAD) did not pass the smell test. Anyone paying attention to our economy would quickly figure out that there is plenty of manufacturing capacity in the US (this will be countered that only .001% of shops are capable of producing our incredibly complicated and demanding parts). Montanian sounds like a politician and that should worry the most trusting souls...

Sorry, I didn't realize YOU decided if we were real, let alone incompetent lying politicians, based on browsing our website content which has admittedly lagged our actual progress and certainly understated what we're doing in firearms and ammunition manufacturing. We're known by senior management, generally the CEO, at every major gun and ammunition manufacturer, many of the mid-tier and supplier firms, ATF-licensed, members of the standard-setting and research organizations, many gun magazine editors and senior writers...and the poor naive rubes you pity for "falling for our ruse" are veteran law enforcement, engineers, designers, gun mag editors, dealers, collectors, and in general a very savvy bunch. We did think there were a lot of machine shops with excess capacity for doing some of this work, hence the blind alley with the CATIA shop with 9-axis machining centers, and helping them get ATF licensure to make gun parts takes months along with adapting their methods. We bought SolidWorks, brought in rapid prototyping engineers, hired a veteran world-class weapon systems engineer with 40 years experience, added a ballistics lab-heck we make the testing ammunition for most major gunmakers...it's a pretty dumb way to run a "ruse" but it's how you work your way through bringing back a complex (that's what all of the master machinists and gunmakers say when they examine a Merwin closely, apparently only you think these are fast and easy.) Smith & Wesson have been extremely supportive to this effort, maybe you can straighten them out too with your untapped expertise...but don't call them the same names, although Horace Smith, Sam Colt, B. Tyler Henry, John Browning, Bill Ruger, etc. wouldn't meet your high standards either.

deadin · #72 02-04-2010, 09:23 PM

I think what bothers a number of folks is your $250.00 NON-REFUNDABLE deposit. If you are as successful as you indicate in your post above, why are you taking deposits before you even have a working prototype to show. I would think that you should be able to swing it just with shareholders alone that want a part of the company.
(Kind of like Horace Smith, Sam Colt, B. Tyler Henry, John Browning, Bill Ruger, etc. did.)

CNCforLife · #73 02-04-2010, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montanian

Sorry, I didn't realize YOU decided if we were real, let alone incompetent lying politicians, based on browsing our website content which has admittedly lagged our actual progress and certainly understated what we're doing in firearms and ammunition manufacturing. We're known by senior management, generally the CEO, at every major gun and ammunition manufacturer, many of the mid-tier and supplier firms, ATF-licensed, members of the standard-setting and research organizations, many gun magazine editors and senior writers...and the poor naive rubes you pity for "falling for our ruse" are veteran law enforcement, engineers, designers, gun mag editors, dealers, collectors, and in general a very savvy bunch. We did think there were a lot of machine shops with excess capacity for doing some of this work, hence the blind alley with the CATIA shop with 9-axis machining centers, and helping them get ATF licensure to make gun parts takes months along with adapting their methods. We bought SolidWorks, brought in rapid prototyping engineers, hired a veteran world-class weapon systems engineer with 40 years experience, added a ballistics lab-heck we make the testing ammunition for most major gunmakers...it's a pretty dumb way to run a "ruse" but it's how you work your way through bringing back a complex (that's what all of the master machinists and gunmakers say when they examine a Merwin closely, apparently only you think these are fast and easy.) Smith & Wesson have been extremely supportive to this effort, maybe you can straighten them out too with your untapped expertise...but don't call them the same names, although Horace Smith, Sam Colt, B. Tyler Henry, John Browning, Bill Ruger, etc. wouldn't meet your high standards either.

Seems a nerve was struck. I don't believe my post mentioned anything about lying or incompetent but you certainly have tripped over your own words. CAD has nothing to do with driving the machine (2 axis or even the 9 axis you mentioned). Those of us that actually use CATIA and/or Solid Works (both owned by Dassault) know that it takes the same effort to design in either package. Yes, the Merwin is a very complicated design which begs the question why any manufacturing company would tackle this endeavor - one would assume due diligence would have uncovered the folly of this venture (unless one was involved in firearm manufacturing, the startup costs would be prohibitive). If you are known by your CEO, why is that not mentioned on your website? Maybe his name is Colt or Browning? The warm and fuzzy leaves quickly when CAD models must be posted by a forum visitor (something my grandson could do and he is not even a rapid prototyping engineer - whatever that is). I might suggest you drop a few of those names rather than hide behind several websites that go no where.

Modelof1891 · #74 02-05-2010, 01:12 AM

Well, lets take it easy here guys. I am thinking that I may be the reason Montanian responded here to the first post that had questions about the new Merwin Hulbert Company. I went to the Merwin Hulbert site and looked him up just to get a few questions answered here. So I feel responsible for getting Montanian involved on this site.

I am the president of the Merwin-Hulbert Collectors Association, only because appointed in 1997 by Art Phelps, author of "The Story of Merwin, Hulbert & Company. I was contacted by these M&H Company guys about 8 years ago with questions about remaking the old firearm that I love almost as much as the old Smiths. They talked about starting a forum at that time. My response was "good luck" because the total number of members over the first five years was appx. 65. I was writing a newsletter about three times a year, of mostly information donated by members and other info I thought would be good for the group. I ran out of information contributed by members after the second newsletter. This is why I thought a forum for the M&H would have very little activity but may have been a good idea in order to stir up the interest. Well, over the few years that forum has been around, there is still just a few willing to talk about Merwins. I fully understand that because of the lack of old company records to prove or disprove which model was introduced when, and what features or special orders were available. There are very few models and also very few in number.

I can understand everyones concern about the New company. I understand the owner and Montanian are busy with the makings of this unique old firearm.
I think the new drawings were posted here by another interested party simply because it would not have been the proper thing to do, on this site, posting their own pictures. I would have posted them if I had checked my emails sooner and they were not already here when I looked.

I have respect for all in the industry and I think the product is underway. I think enough so that I placed my order, after they had finished their research of several years, when the OPTION became available to the public.

I am not part of the new Merwin Hulbert Company but I am glad to have the option to own one of thier new M&H's. It was my choice to put the deposit money out and I hope to enjoy my new .44-40 with the extra .38 barrel and cylinder.

Just wanted to state a few facts and my opinion. Thank you for your time!

Terry

CNCforLife · #75 02-05-2010, 01:23 AM

Terry,

I appreciate the information and sincerely hope that you will receive a newly manufactured Merwin. If you visit the MH forum, you will see that the renderings were posted by a visitor. As someone that works with all of the technologies mentioned on the MH website and above post, there is just a little too much "skewed" data. I was compelled to write as our industry does not need another black eye and sincerely hope that additional dialog will prove this new adventure as legitimate.

CNCforLife · #76 02-11-2010, 12:26 PM

As previously state, buyer beware. The latest clue as to the competence of these guys is posted on their website - good catch by Tom who also posted CAD drawings to this site. I realize this is not the place but hate to see others get caught.

twaits · #77 02-11-2010, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNCforLife

As previously state, buyer beware. The latest clue as to the competence of these guys is posted on their website - good catch by Tom who also posted CAD drawings to this site. I realize this is not the place but hate to see others get caught.

Are you talking about the Merwin Hulbert forum? I'm looking through there and I'm not catching the clue. Can you give me a hint?

WildCard ZX6R · #78 02-11-2010, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaits

Are you talking about the Merwin Hulbert forum? I'm looking through there and I'm not catching the clue. Can you give me a hint?

I think he means this thread : Merwin Hulbert & Co. Forum: .45 Caliber for Merwin Open-Tops Change

CNCforLife · #79 02-12-2010, 01:08 AM

Precisely...

twaits · #80 02-12-2010, 08:18 AM

Hmmm. The plot thickens...

CNCforLife · #81 02-12-2010, 11:12 AM

Hard to believe that there is a plot other than an effort to get into the firearms manufacturing business with funding from unsuspecting collectors. Just pencil out the number of claimed customers time deposits and it is clear they don't have any where near enough funding to even purchase what they claim. So that leaves deep pockets to make this work - then why did they need the deposits? Who is this Blank guy? Their site claims he is will known for his efforts to save Winchester - household name in the firearms industry?? The websites go no where but seem to have a gun theme. It appears to those of us that actually make stuff that this is nothing more than an instrument to turn a hobby into a job. If the deep pockets are present, go buy one of the many vintage firearm manufacturing companies. Just doesn't add up....

twaits · #82 02-15-2010, 01:16 PM

No rebuttals. I was hoping to see where this was going but it appears to be dead.

CNCforLife · #83 02-15-2010, 02:38 PM

My apologies to this forum, but just check out the reply from staff on the 45 topic - typical convoluted BS.

Modelof1891 · #84 02-18-2010, 04:43 PM

The Merwin, Hulbert & Co. 4th Model, Folding Hammer Frontier Army in .44-40 with serial numbers 4487 and 4488. One was found at the Baltimore, MD show and the other five or six years later in CA. Brought them together about two years ago after they parted ways 118 years ago.

twaits · #85 02-19-2010, 01:44 PM

Wow impressive pair of MHs!!
I LOVE stories like this

Thanks so much for posting!

Tom K · #86 02-20-2010, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNCforLife

My apologies to this forum, but just check out the reply from staff on the 45 topic - typical convoluted BS.

Have you read my replies, to their reply? Merwin Hulbert & Co. Forum: .45 Caliber for Merwin Open-Tops Change
Have you looked at the SAAMI specs? It may be convoluted but it's not entirely BS. A .45 Colt chamber cut to the maximum size of the SAAMI spec may be able to accept a .454 Casull cartridge – my S&W Model 25-13 Mountain Gun will. Frankly it gives me the willies to find that out, but better to know it than not.

The part that’s BS is not chambering their open-top model in .45 Colt because of this. A .45 Colt chamber cut to the minimum end of the tolerance range should be safe from unintentionally chambering a .454 Casull round. I haven’t worked out how much tolerance is available before it becomes a problem – that's their job, not mine. However there seem to be plenty of gun companies such as USFA that have figured it out.

And, whether a .45 MH is open-top or with a topstrap should make no difference. If a 60,000psi Casull round gets chambered, either way it’s gonna kaboom.

CNCforLife · #87 02-20-2010, 02:49 PM

Tom, great post and documentation. However, data is moot until an actual piece is produced. My old pappy warned me to be aware of those that answer simple questions with long responses. I am only guessing, but my gut tells me this is a couple of guys with a nostalgic love for guns trying to find a business. You also proved the point concerning CAD - anyone with real experience would call BS on their explanation of production delays. Where is the market? Reminds me of our current administration...talk is cheap.

twaits · #88 02-22-2010, 02:03 PM

Montanian just posted a prototype picture over on the coltforum in the lounge section. It looks pretty good.

jimmyj · #89 02-22-2010, 04:00 PM

Hi:
I recall in a episode of TV's "The Virginian" Trampus used a Merwin Hulbert.
In the movie "Triumphs of a Man Called Horse" actor Michael Beck used a Merwin Hulbert, and if I recalled correctly, the villan used a Merwin Hulbert with an extended barrel.
Jimmy

CNCforLife · #90 02-22-2010, 11:17 PM

Rather interesting that the latest news on MH is posted on the Colt forum. If the CAD drawings were completed months ago, why the delay in production of rapid prototype (the rapid should tip them off)? That process will not ensure fit or tolerance. Tool steel is not 4140. The Freedom Arms argument is hardly viable - the cost of a new MH will compete with the collection market. The 454 filled a nitche but had no previously produced competitors. Why the secrecy on the other companies owned? Seems like that might quiet the skeptics...

Tom K · #91 02-24-2010, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaits

Montanian just posted a prototype picture over on the coltforum in the lounge section. It looks pretty good.

I posted the picture full size on the Merwin Hulbert Forum, along with another CAD rendering.

Merwin Hulbert & Co. Forum: new Merwin production updates

twaits · #92 02-24-2010, 10:56 PM

That prototype looks pretty much spot on. Very exciting. I hope it ends up in production. That will be the only new gun I ever buy.

Modelof1891 · #93 03-27-2010, 06:32 AM

Twaits,

This is something interesting. Just when I thought I had seen all the Bonanza episodes, someone sends a link showing a Merwin Hulbert 3rd Model Pocket Army 7 in. barrel with Ivory grips. The traveling salesman is asking ($10.00) half price of the new cost ($19.00), because it has been used. It sounds funny to hear them speak of it as being available and mention the name so clearly. Would have been correct for the period and place ($19.00 from a Chicago distributor and major wholesaler of the time).

2 of 5 parts on YouTube of a 1964 Bonanza episode that features a Merwin
Hulbert 3rd Model Pocket Army with a 7" barrel and ivory grip.

The 5th part is the best drama where Ben uses the Merwin quite
effectively. The daughter that Adam's enamored with goes on to play Andy
Griffith's girlfriend/wife "Helen" in Mayberry (lot less shootin' than Nevada,
even with Barney Fife armed and alert.) Oscar nominee Harry Dean Stanton's one of the outlaws.

Forgot to mention it all looked so correct untill Ben was shown dropping the emptys out the loading gate.

YouTube - Bonanza- The Way of Aaron 1 Adam sees the MH
YouTube - Bonanza- The Way of Aaron 2 Ben tries the MH

Terry

twaits · #94 03-28-2010, 10:55 PM

Thats really interesting! That's a beautiful gun he's got there. I wonder where it is today?

rte148 · #95 04-12-2010, 11:31 AM

Came across this in my dad's attic - am searching for info and whether or not it's worth the time and money to get it cleaned up by a pro.

I think it's a pretty neat looking piece and WOW! talk about a hair trigger on this.

twaits · #96 04-13-2010, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rte148

Came across this in my dad's attic - am searching for info and whether or not it's worth the time and money to get it cleaned up by a pro.

I think it's a pretty neat looking piece and WOW! talk about a hair trigger on this.

Be VERY careful in who you have "clean it up". That's a very valuable peice and the value could very easily be "cleaned" right off of it.
I think for it's age it looks very clean the way it is. I would pretty much leave it alone.
That aside, that is a great find! Congratulations!!

rte148 · #97 04-13-2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaits

Be VERY careful in who you have "clean it up". That's a very valuable peice and the value could very easily be "cleaned" right off of it.
I think for it's age it looks very clean the way it is. I would pretty much leave it alone.
That aside, that is a great find! Congratulations!!

I just put a light coating of quality oil, wiped it off and wrapped it up in a clean case. I'm putting out feelers to antique smiths - I'd like it to get it up to display, non firing quality - nothing fancy, I'm not looking for a monetary gain on this - just preservation.

Unless it's worth $8,000.

twaits · #98 04-13-2010, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rte148

I just put a light coating of quality oil, wiped it off and wrapped it up in a clean case. I'm putting out feelers to antique smiths - I'd like it to get it up to display, non firing quality - nothing fancy, I'm not looking for a monetary gain on this - just preservation.

Unless it's worth $8,000.

Maybe not 8,000 but I bet it worth at least 2 or 3 thousand. Maybe more.

Tom K · #99 04-13-2010, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaits

Maybe not 8,000 but I bet it worth at least 2 or 3 thousand. Maybe more.

Look again - it appears that the hook on the topstrap is broken off, just above the hammer. That's gonna put a dent in the monetary value. And even though MH made models without a topstrap, I don't think I'd want to shoot this one.

twaits · #**100** 04-14-2010, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom K

Look again - it appears that the hook on the topstrap is broken off, just above the hammer. That's gonna put a dent in the monetary value. And even though MH made models without a topstrap, I don't think I'd want to shoot this one.

Oops. I didn't see that. It's a nice enough gun though that I would try to find someone that could repair that.