This one is for the Rifle guys and gals...

History mystery would better define it....

Ever bought a gun that some folks immediately would claim is a "Made Up" gun...and warn you that your putting your reputation at stake in posting it...and might look foolish for parting your hard earned cash...

Here is a gun in question....it is a 1894 Winchester in .32WS.... I am going to give you the SN range on the gun 1534XX



And a clue....

Here is the sight on the gun...A Smokeless sight that was patented in Oct of 1901 as stamped inside the body of the sight...



and a shot of the bottom of the smooth pistol grip...



Soooooo...
Based strictly on what you find on the internet...

Is this gun a fake or the genuine article?



Advanced collectors...let this one go for a bit...


giz

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Non gratum anus rodentum

Looks like a short rifle rather than a carbine.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

Andy,

It isn't a carbine or short rifle...it is a standard length at 26" on the barrel.

Another Clue...

What year was the 1894 first offered in .32WS?


giz

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Non gratum anus rodentum

I could be all wrong, but I believe the 32WS came out in 1895, and the serial number puts the rifle at 1899. So a 1901 sight wouldn't be original to the gun.

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Misty

Everything I can see in the two photos looks right as rain. The “smokeless powder “ rear sight was specific to the .32 Winchester Special cartridge, which was introduced in 1902. That one looks like it’s been there forever with no sign of tampering. Serial number 153,XXX dates to 1899, but it’s not unusual for special order guns to ship well later than their serial numbers would indicate. I had a deluxe 1894, serial number 15,XXX that lettered as having shipped from the warehouse in 1898, three years later than one would think. According to Renneberg, .32 Specials have been verified in the 15,5XX range, with ship dates of 1902-03.


Unless there’s something your not showing like a proof or mail order proof, I wouldn’t let the apparently too low serial number scare me off if everything else looked and smelled right. That appears to be very nice semi-deluxe rifle with a plain pistol grip stock and it needs a letter or a fax sheet from Cody. I might even call that extra finish wood.

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"I also cook."

Sorry, it looked like a shorter barrel than 26" from the pictures to me.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

" Advanced collectors...let this one go for a bit... "

OK, but I'm tempted. How long are you going to let it go on?

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6/23/2022

armadillo

Anyone can answer now.


giz

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Non gratum anus rodentum

S&WChad makes sense. That's what I love about this place. I learn something every day! And by the way, whether that Winchester is "made up" or not, it sure is a fine looking 1894! I'd buy it!

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Misty

Misty, Chad had almost all the bases covered.

This gun was purchased at a Cabela's store. It was priced at about 1/3 it's real value. When I asked why...I was told that the gun wasn't correct. Yet, everything I saw told me that it was a correct gun. So it made the trip home with me...

Some of the issues surrounding this gun involves the early research done by folks like George Madis. Madis basic premise on SN date ranges gets confusing. In recent years much more information has been discovered.

Although the 32 WS was actually developed with the 1894 rifle in mind...it was not chambered for the gun until early 1902. So my gun's SN range placed it's manufacture to 1899. The rear sight is from 1901. Confused yet?



giz

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Non gratum anus rodentum

Hope I remember this right. Looks like your gun is from 1899 (according to this old Guns & Ammo article). Cartridges of the world says the .32 Spl came out in 1895 but Mike Venturino says 1902 in his great lever action book. I read 1902 in other places, too. In my Madis book on Winchesters there's a gun older than yours with that pistol grip and cap. Hope I got the year right on your gun. I just went back and saw this stuff was already covered pretty much, but I wonder about the exact date the 32 Spl came out.

"Yet?" I live in a state of confusion!

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Misty

OK,

Here's my take...Winchester made the receivers in 1899 for guns that were being assembled up to 3 years later. That explains why Madis is technically correct on his dates. The .32WS was indeed created many years before it was incorporated into the 1894 Model. Figure that early 1902 was the date the first 1894's in .32WS rolled out of the warehouse. Which explains how a a 1899 receiver can be on a gun with a 1901 sight and be chambered in 32WS....

And you guys thought S&W were hard....


giz

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Non gratum anus rodentum

This looks like a candidate for a "Cody letter."

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6/23/2022

armadillo,

Tried that. Unfortunately my gun is missing from the records. Hoping if they ever release the polishing room records that it will show up in that sequence. It is possible that it was done with a block of other deluxe style guns at a different date.


giz

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Non gratum anus rodentum

I've yet to see that stop any retailer from asking a high price.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446