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12-30-2009, 07:13 PM
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Now looking at an AR style rifle – the Ruger didn’t work out
My new stainless Ruger Mini 14 Ranch Rifle has not produced the accuracy I was hoping for, so I guess the next step is to go with an AR style rifle. I understand they are inherently more accurate than Rugers.
My initial reaction is to go with a Colt LE6920 carbine, mainly because of name recognition, and the fact that Colt has been building that model rifle longer than anyone else (I think). But it seems that others are making “look-alikes” of the Colt. My question is, and price aside, do the non-Colt rifles measure up to Colts with regards to quality, durability, and accuracy? I do know that when it’s time to sell, Colts will retain their value more so than most other manufacturers.
Anyone have input regarding quality, durability, and accuracy for me to consider in making my decision?
Thanks in advance.
Rafter-S
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12-30-2009, 07:24 PM
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I had a Rock River Arms AR15 for a number of years. The quality and accuracy out of the box were superb. The match trigger was unbelievable! Current price for a new one, in my neck of the woods is roughly $900. (Only reason I sold it was because I never shot it as much as I thought I would and I don't have room for guns I don't use
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12-30-2009, 07:34 PM
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I would second Rock River Arms. They presently have three of the AR models on sale: the Elite Operator dropped from $1325 to $1060, the Entry Operator dropped from $1200 to $995 and the same drop for the Tactical Operator. Check out Rock River Arms:. Mine has worked flawlessly and puts the bullet where you aim.
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12-30-2009, 07:38 PM
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you just bought the 'wrong" Ruger, they have the AR type but much more than the Rock River, BUT never know till you try...seems about everyone has the AR platforms now, even Sig...so better shop the 'deal'
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12-30-2009, 07:39 PM
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I like my Rock River Arms National Match. The trigger is a pretty good two stage. If you want accuracy you may want to try www.whiteoakarmament.com for a space gun or varmit upper and get a lower from Rock River. The nice thing about AR 15s is uppers and lowers interchange freely. I would not get a Colt myself, not that there is anything wrong with Colt, but I beilive that they use different diameter trigger pins than standard. There are lots of parts and things for the AR, and most of them are quite easy to put in or have put in.
Best
Dwight
FKWg
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Last edited by K38; 12-30-2009 at 07:45 PM.
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12-30-2009, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dant
you just bought the 'wrong" Ruger, they have the AR type but much more than the Rock River, BUT never know till you try...seems about everyone has the AR platforms now, even Sig...so better shop the 'deal'
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Dan-- Thanks for the suggestion. I went to Ruger's website and read where their .556 has a 1 in 9" barrel, where Colt's is 1 in 7". I wonder what the logic is, if there is any, with the difference.
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12-30-2009, 08:04 PM
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I have an Olympic Arms Targetmatch. It's a very fine, accurate rifle. It's not in the standard AR15/M4 configuration, and it's used primarily for target shooting.
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12-30-2009, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafter-S
Dan-- Thanks for the suggestion. I went to Ruger's website and read where their .556 has a 1 in 9" barrel, where Colt's is 1 in 7". I wonder what the logic is, if there is any, with the difference.
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The faster twist is to stabilize longer and heavier bullets. AR's used for across the course shooting need a 1 in 7" or 1 in 9" twist to stabilize the heavy 80 grain bullets used for 600 yards. These bullets have loaded longer than magazine length but this is no problem as they are loaded one at a time in slow fire anyway. If you wanted maximum accuracy with 55 grain varmint bullets you would want a slower twist.
DLB
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12-30-2009, 09:13 PM
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Were you shooting 223 ammo or 556 ammo in your Mini-14? I don't know if the new ones are so marked but the older Rugers are 223's.
It makes a difference in accuracy.
GF
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12-30-2009, 09:13 PM
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I'll throw in a vote for a S&W M&P 15 PC. Mine has a Leupold 6-18 VX2 scope and is the most accurate weapon I own.
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12-30-2009, 09:55 PM
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If you are looking for accuracy in an AR15 platform, get one without the chromed barrel. I have a scoped Colt HBAR flat top that shoots between 3/4 and 1" groups with LC 62 grain bullets and between 1/2 and 3/4" with Federal Gold Medal. My Remington 700 PSS in .223 will just barely outshoot it.
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12-30-2009, 11:52 PM
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Before you give up on your Ruger, you might check out the Mini 14 forum for accuracy tips:
Ruger Mini-14 Talk - PerfectUnion BBS
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12-31-2009, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GF
Were you shooting 223 ammo or 556 ammo in your Mini-14? I don't know if the new ones are so marked but the older Rugers are 223's.
It makes a difference in accuracy.
GF
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I tried several types of factory .556 and .223 ammo. The one that produced the best accuracy was .223 Remington/UMC 55 gr. FMJ. The best it would do was ~3.5" at 100 yards.
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12-31-2009, 12:44 AM
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For all the reasons you stated I think you’d be nuts not to buy a 6920 (or 6940) at this time.
I know I’m likely to loose my audience if I come across too strongly, but I think RRA’s are more triumph of advertising than quality, kind of like Kimber 1911’s. There, that should alienate a big bunch lol.
We field Colt, RRA’s, and Noveske’s AR’s at the agency I work for. The Noveske’s may be even better than the Colts.
Just for giggles here’s a photo of a 1 MOA group from the scoped Colt pictured. Pretty impressive to me that a military type firearm shoots so well with relatively cheap ammo, and I’m no rifleman.
Five rounds into 2" at 200 yards. I can't do it everytime, but I can often times repeat this performance. The rifle does much better with $1 a round Honady selections, but for budget ammo (AE223) I'm not going to complain.
Colt with Leopold 1.75X6 in LaRue Mount.
There are certainly many quality AR’s on the market, but for price/value, name recognition, and quality, I think you’re right to buy a 6920/6940.
BTW, I loved my mini-14 from yesteryear, but it shot patterns, it really did. It flat out drove me nuts and I sold it.
Emory
Last edited by crofoot629; 12-31-2009 at 12:46 AM.
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12-31-2009, 01:38 AM
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I have a bushmaster lower with a Jard trigger. I put a RR upper with a 24" varmint barrel on it. it has a 1 in 8 twist. The last time that I shot it, I put 10 69 gr Black Hills Match King bullets into just under 2.5" at 260 yds. It will consistently put 10 of same in under 3/4" at 100 yds if I don't blow the shot.
Here is the upper
Rock River Arms: Varmint A4 Upper Half
Last edited by LouisianaJoe; 12-31-2009 at 01:41 AM.
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12-31-2009, 09:35 AM
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The Mini-14 has always been more known for its reliability than its accuracy.
I don't like the Colt, firstly because of it's modified take down system, secondly because at least for a while, the quality was dreadful.
I built my gun with a used Eagle lower and a 20" FN and 16" Sherluk upper.
If I were going to buy a complete new gun, I'd go with any of the other name brands, such as Rock River, DPMS and Armalite.
You might want to consider one of the new piston operated guns, like the new Ruger and the POF and Barrett.
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12-31-2009, 11:08 AM
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crofoot-- Thanks for the input and pictures. I believe I have narrowed it down to the Colt 6940 and Ruger SR-556.
Over the years, virtually all my experiences with Ruger have been positive, except for one about 30 years ago when I was trying to achieve accuracy from a M77V in 22-250. My pal bought a Remington 700 heavy barrel (the equivalent to my Ruger 77V) at the same time and we spent many days together working up accuracy loads. His 700 would consistantly shoot under 1" at 100 yards, where my M77 couldn't shoot under 2". When I call Ruger and talked with a technician, I was informed that their "spec standards" on that rifle was 2-1/2" at 50 yards! He told me I was expecting way too much from a production rifle--that I need to buy a custom barrel if I wanted 1" accuracy. That particular conversation has made me a "Remington man" ever since on high powered rifles.
If I go with a Ruger SR-556, it will be AFTER a discussion with the Ruger factory on what to expect in regards to accuracy. If they give me a "2-1/2 at 100 yards" thing again, my direction will definitely be towards a Colt.
Rafter-S
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12-31-2009, 12:07 PM
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AR stands for Armalite.
Not much talk about the Armalite's but I really do like mine. It is an AR 10. So not exactly apples to apples.
There are as many opinions about AR's as there are people on this earth. I have parts guns that are very accurate and reliable.
What is my point? Not sure just babbling
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12-31-2009, 12:38 PM
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I have a Bushmaster M4A3 and a Colt Match HBAR. Both are more accurate than I shoot. I've owned Bushmaster and Colt ARs exclusively and won't hesitate to recommend them. Since I haven't owned anything else, I don't feel comfortable recommending another maker. I have owned a number of Ruger Mini-14s, and while they never failed to fire (at least the first shot), I have never been impressed with their accuracy, or the reliability of the magazines.
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12-31-2009, 12:55 PM
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Yes the Colt measures up with past Colts.
If I didn't have a Colt AR, I'd buy the Rock River Arms. They build a quality AR. Good luck! Regards 18DAI.
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12-31-2009, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GF
Were you shooting 223 ammo or 556 ammo in your Mini-14? I don't know if the new ones are so marked but the older Rugers are 223's.
It makes a difference in accuracy.
GF
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Please post PROOF supporting this statement.
FN in MT
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12-31-2009, 01:04 PM
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I had a match HBAR Colt at one time and it was just OK accuracy wise. Sold it at a profit and stayed away from AR's for a while. 3 years ago I bought a Bushmaster target model with flattop reciever and WOW will it shoot! Quality factory stuff will generally shoot around 1 moa and my 75 grain hand loads will shoot 3/4 moa with the occasional group pushing the 1/2 moa mark. The only change I have made in this gun is the pistol grip and a tactical latch to make it easier with the scope.
I bought a dpms carbine earlier this past year and added an ADCO holographic sight. I keep it for home protection. Haven't fired it beyond 40 yards, yet, but at 40 with the holo sight it shoots very tiny holes.
The quality of both these weapons is very good. All the ruggedness I'll ever need for my purposes. Lots of entertainment value and enjoyment shooting them too!
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12-31-2009, 02:39 PM
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I just sent this message to Ruger. I will be interested in their reply.
Sirs,
I am looking to purchase an AR style rifle within the next 3 weeks. Ruger’s SR-556 is high on my list.
I am familiar with Ruger’s quality, and guarantee regarding workmanship and materials. But my question to you regards your specifications on accuracy for this rifle. I am looking for a rifle capable of producing 1” groups at 100 yards with the correct ammo. At what group size do you consider this rifle to be out of spec?
Thank you.
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12-31-2009, 02:55 PM
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Owned a Colt SP-1 CAR back in the 80s before good triggers, etc were available, and before carbines were as well understood. Decent gun, but sold it before realizing how nuts the world was going to get.
Have since worked with several Bushhamster carbines. To me the 5.56 round is best suited to the carbine-type platform and I don't have any AR rifles--yet, anyway. The BMs work for me. Some people get exercised about minor issues like carrier key staking, individual MPI testing, etc, but the are just that--minor and easily addressed. I suppose that the Colts are almost worth the extra $ for the prancing pony and potential resale, but my BM is a tool. I was able to stay with the A1 handle and sights with BM which I prefer from the old days. The round count is over 3K. I have made 3.5 changes since it was NIB:
1. Jard no-adj. trigger;
2. "D-Fender" to ensure 100% extraction;
3. Compact ACOG--worth every penny;
3.5: Flashlight--which I am ambivalent about.
I keep some spare parts on hand including an entire headspaced bolt carrier group (which I will probably never need), etc, and change things
out on a PM schedule. If and when the barrel (1/9 chrome) wears out around 10K rounds I will retrofit a lightweight pencil barrel.
It the meantime this little gun runs just like the Toyota it rides around in. Less is more.
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12-31-2009, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank237
Please post PROOF supporting this statement.
FN in MT
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5.56 VS .223 Ammunition and Chamber Dimensions - AR15 Armory.com
This should explain the difference for you.
GF
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12-31-2009, 03:30 PM
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I have a Bushmaster DCM match rifle that I've had for ten years and now I'm building an M4 style carbine.
In both cases, I bought a receiver at a gunshow..(you know, no sales tax! With the Bushy, I sent it to them, they installed the lower parts and sent it back mounted to a Bushy DCM upper. That saved a few bucks.
This time around I bought a Del-Ton lower, installed the lower parts my self, and will buy a high end M4 upper.
This way you can "dress" it anyway you want, and with the AR, the options are limtless.
Good brands to consider...off the shelf...Bushmaster, Colt, Rock River, & Armalite.
The "tacticool" guys have some pretty hard core criteria and you can find that out on some of the specialty forums. They won't "recommend" the above, but I think the rank and file shooters could go with the above.
For a completely tactical, "your life will depend on it" rifle, there may be some other issues to consider, but I think each person needs to consider these things himself.
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Last edited by Gutpile Charlie; 12-31-2009 at 03:33 PM.
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01-01-2010, 08:09 PM
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You might want to visit M4carbine.net for a rundown on the various brands. For a seldom fired plinker most any will do. If you are interested in a mil-spec, long lasting, reliable, and accurate guns go with Colt, Noveske, BCM, Daniel Defense, or LMT. There is a chart in the forum section that is very informative regarding which manufacturers shortcut when building their guns. I've attended training sessions where it is common to fire 1,000 to 2,500 rounds in three to six days and there is a major difference in the guns when used hard. Little things like improperly staked bolt carriers and castle nuts cause failure for many brands. You can't really go wrong with the 6920. If you have the bucks, check out Noveske. Noveske has the reliability of a Colt with one of the most accurate barrels available.
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01-01-2010, 09:59 PM
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For what you’re looking for, check out the Sabre line. Sabre Defence manufactures their uppers, lowers and barrels in house at their Nashville, TN. plant.
I bought one about three years ago and have zero complaints; high quality product in my opinion.
Check out their website: Sabre Defence Industries
Send them an email asking the same question you posed to Ruger.
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01-01-2010, 10:06 PM
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I have played with a lot of AR's and the one I love is a DPMS panther arms, these guns are scary accurate out of the box and wonderful to shoot, HOWEVER all AR's are plagued with one problem, they do not shoot POI before 100 yards due to the highth of their sights.
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01-01-2010, 10:28 PM
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Most Ruger ranch rifles have great "minute of watermelon" at 100 yds. Stick with AR platforms if you want accuracy in semi auto.
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01-01-2010, 10:29 PM
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AR chosen WAY over Ruger!!
I've had the good fortune to have owned several Colt's and different Rugers. I tried hard to fall in love with the Ranch rifle and it's style. The mags were very finicky even with factory mags. The accuracy was dismal unless you just wanted minute of man. My Colt's were ok to good or better, as far as accuracy. I've also had and have several Bushmasters. My M-4 A3 with a mini-Y comp is my favorite of all the AR's I have owned. It shoots both cheap ammo and match ammo GREAT!! If my Bushmaster went the way of the dodo, I would look heavily into a Rock River Arms. The Colts are too unpredictable for my taste. There are so many makers now, but RRA or DPMS are up there as far as my research has told me. Armalite is another AR that I would purchase. I've had three of them and only got rid of them to fund something else(as I have my Bushmaster). Ruger has my devotion in it's .22's(auto's) and it's single-action revolvers. Other than that, I have other tastes. Re-sale,replacement, or repair are high on my list of criteria. That is why I stay with a good AR(not Colt with two pin sizes)---They are everywhere..........Sprefix
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01-02-2010, 02:13 AM
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i like my bushmaster lower mated to a dpms upper, no wiggle whatsoever and groups fantastic
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01-03-2010, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafter-S
I just sent this message to Ruger. I will be interested in their reply.
Sirs,
I am looking to purchase an AR style rifle within the next 3 weeks. Ruger’s SR-556 is high on my list.
I am familiar with Ruger’s quality, and guarantee regarding workmanship and materials. But my question to you regards your specifications on accuracy for this rifle. I am looking for a rifle capable of producing 1” groups at 100 yards with the correct ammo. At what group size do you consider this rifle to be out of spec?
Thank you.
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I received a reply from Ruger Customer Support. FYI, here it is:
Response:
The factory spec for this rifle is about 1" at 50 yds.
If you need further information, please visit our website at Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc. or contact us at:
Revolvers, shotguns, rifles, 10/22 Charger Pistol: (603) 865-2442
Pistols: (928) 778-6555
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1911, 223, 629, bushmaster, carbine, colt, kimber, military, olympic, remington, rifleman, ruger, scope, sig arms, tactical, tacticool, umc |
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