bmcgilvray, thanks for the info! Just what I hoped to see... a comparison between .22 and .25 out of the same length barrel.

honestly I'd like to see the 25 "automaged" lengthen the case a quarter inch and get that pressure up there a bit ...
As a kid in a small town I heard a fairly stable account of a 25 in action. A tavern owner of reptilian nature (read snake) started an altercation with a customer. (rumor has it as a pot transaction gone stupid) The Taveren owner then met the second party out back with a Louisville slugger.
Prior to making physical contact the customer produced a 25 auto, firing and hitting twice which resulted in some broken ribs by the more authoritative Louisville slugger.
they say dont bring a knife to a gunfight. If facing a 25, there may be an exception

bmcgilvray

Excellent info, excellent posts.

I carried a Baby Browning for several years.
Many times as a second or third, but sometimes when it was all I could tote.

I shot it a fair amount and at conversational distances it was plenty accurate enough.

I have seen several people killed with a 25 ACP and a 22LR.

Once upon a time I saw a fella shot on the left side of his chest, just at the top of the heart.

He was dead when he hit the ground.

This thread makes me wish I still had my "Little Baby".

The Lyman number is 252435. I don't know if it's still in the line. I got mine many years ago. I went to my local gun store over lunch hour and he had 4 of them on the shelf! i asked what happened and he looked a little sheepish. Seems a customer wanted one so he orered it. His distributor back ordered it so he went to another distributor, and on and on. When Lyman finally made a run of that mould, he had 5 of them. I gladly took one home with me.

It was made on the old, single cavity sized block, but you couldn't overheat it; there was too much mould and so little cavity. A run fo 400 bullets wasn't much.

The late, lamented Hensley & Gibbs also cataloged a 25 ACP bullet. I often thought a 10 cavity H&G mould in 25 ACP would be the ultimate in something...I don't know what, possibly ridiculous.

I've told my friend that if he ever decides to part with that 25 ACP double, to let me know. He said I'd have to get in line.

So Bowen will make a 25 ACP revolver!! Hmmmmmm. I wonder if it would be better to use a K 38 and not have to mess with modifying the firing pin to hit a centerfire primer. Guess it would be a lot or $$$$s,... sigh.

When I was going to Vietnam, I told my dad, a WWII Combat Veteran of what I planned to do. He said,
"Don't buy a .25 cause,
if you buy it, you might carry it,
and if you carry it, you might get brave and
pull it on someone, and if you pull it on someone,
you might pull the trigger, and if you
pull the trigger it might go off, and if it goes off,
you might accidently hit someone and if you hit someone,
they are going to be real mad and will probably kick your,
butt." Needless to say, I didn't buy a .25, but I did pick up
a nice GP35 in Fayettville and the armorers on Smoke Bomb Hill parkarized it for me. Gave it to my dad, before I left for Vietnam. I picked up another pistol in Nha Trang when I got in country. I have a .25acp now that I was given by a friend's widow when he passed away. Safe Queen.

Rule 303

Cyrano and NKJ Nut, thanks for the info. Looking at the profile of the bullet I'm guessing the bullets I bought are from a Lyman mould. If my guns like them I might try to track a mould down. The caster is charging $5.65 for 100, he also had a 500 pack for $25 something.

Lt. JL, great picture, I always wanted a Colt or Browning .25, or even a Bauer or other quality piece.

Well I hate to admit it but I own Two Raven .25 Autos. I had always wanted a auto and found one at a gunshow about 25 years ago. The gun is fun to shoot. The second one I bought for my father around the same time after he shot mine. It was probley the most inaccrute gun that I have ever shot but it was fun to shoot side by side with my father. When we were shooting at the targets we hit the clothesline and laughed at that for quite a few years. Now that my Father is gone I have both guns. I keep one loaded ready to shoot when someone rings the doorbell late at night since it would be a short shot. Would I rather use a larger one yes but when my kids were younger I keep the 357 in the closet. Now I hope to be able to teach both my kids to shoot and have respect for the firearms that I have.

The only issue I have with stories with this is the fact that two ill placed shots of .45 acp could end with the same result.

For one thing, it would be the ultimate in heavy molds, with ten little bitty cavities in those huge blocks.

BTW Jellybean, that is a reasonable price for .25 bullets. They don't require hardly any metal but you do have to go through the same process as "real" bullets.

if you decide to make your own just remember that the size is not the same as .25 rifle bullets.

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too TOO young!!

The Tavern owner later in his career ultimately found it useful to display the scars as a leverage tool in "debates".
while not perfect hits they are both chest cavity.
He eventually was run out of the tavern bizz for his multiple scrapes with the law and other technical difficulties, but last I heard he was still on this side of the turf.

Honestly I'd like to see the cartridge developed with a COL somewhere between a 380 and a 9MM and pressures in the 40 auto range.
the result could make for a full sized auto with a bottomless mag down to a slightly beefier pocket pistol with all points in between.
Entered into rifles and carbines, even sub gun options as was largely done with the 22LR ... the concept of a 25 auto magnum becomes a lovely little thing of great potential

I've been bitten by the .25 bug. They don't take up near as much room in the safe, leaving more for N-frames. I would like to see a gun about the size of the old Mauser with a double column magazine.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

www.goldenloki.com has ballistic gel results for a .22lr fired from a mini auto.

comparing the .25acp and .22lr from the same bbl length guns the .25acp is "superior" if you can say that with either of these, but its because of the more reliable cartridge design.

I have a Beretta .25 950. I am temporarily letting my brother (an LEO) hang on to it. He sometime uses it as a BUG or his wife will use it as her car/purse piece.

I asked him once if he thought it was a large enough caliber for his wife. His comment: "It isn't much, but it'll make a rapist loose his erection real fast!" I suppose he is right....

I investigated two homicides in the 80's with .25 cal weapons. Both point blank single head shots, both DOA. One female shot in the right temple; the other a male shot behind the right ear. The guns were, surprisingly enough Berettas. So, I guess the .25 has taken at least two lives in the modern era. Everone knows that a well placed shot with a .45 will kill you, but people tend to underestimate the .25s and .32s for that matter. Plus, you just can't beat the conealability of that little Colt vest pocket pistol!

In the Ian Fleming novel Ari Goldfinger was discussing his use of the .25 acp against Bond's "powerhouse" .32 Walther.

He said something to the effect that he "didn't need anything larger because I aim for the right eye and I never miss"

He wasn't claiming to be a great shot . . . just, that when he used it, it was up close and personal.

Lot's of better things to carry, but they'll all kill ya . . . .

Darn it. I've got to clean-up my keyboard, again.
The .25 acp double gun story was a gem. It is amazing what some people will do. Only a true gun NUT would even think of such a thing.

I was reading all these posts about .25's and so I grabbed the old Raven and went out to shoot a little. Here is a picture of the target, shot at 5 yards 7 rounds as fast as I could and hold it on the target. The bottom hole was the first shot out of the holster, but it got better. I was surprised. I've had that pistol for a long time and it has always run smooth. never has jammed on me but I keep all my weapons very clean. I'm still glad nobody saw me shooting it though

Attached Images

7 at 5yds..jpg (77.3 KB, 622 views)

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better have that checked

I'd like to see a Marlin tube fed, bolt action in .25acp. The cartridge has been negatively stereotyped by the cheap pocket autos, but I think it has a lot of potential. With the rising cost of quality match grade .22 long rifle ammo, I would think the reloadable and tunable .25 has a future.

Even a lever action plinker/vermin killer would be nice to see. And I have thought about a full auto, belt fed machine pistol, about the size of my Glock 20. The belt could sit down inside of the "magazine" and be pulled straight up through the top. Oh well, even if someone does make these, they'd only use cheap plastic or cast pot metal parts.

Edited to add one more, lengthen the case and make a round to compete with the 5.7x28.

Several years ago the local leo's were playing around with an old mobile home. One of them fired at it with his 25 bug. The round went lengthwise through the trailer. It didn't hit anything, but thin aluminum, but it didn't stop.

Fascinating link, thanks!

Very apropos to the conversation, 7000 in 28 days. Amazing.

Terry

I am glad to make your acquiantance! I am one of those strange people as well because I reloaded for the 25ACP before I had one. I looked for a bullet mold but could not locate one, I thought that would be a kick. I finally bought a Taurus PT-25 to fire my handloads with. The Taurus went back to the factory for repair this afternoon, it would fail to extract about 20% of the time, this was with the commercial ammo. My handloads were a bit worse. The recoil spring is extremely hard, too hard I am convinced. I think it is wha is causing the FTE.

Best regards,

Terry

I picked up this Beretta 21A 25acp at a gun show two years ago in a private sale from a dealer for $150...no paperwork or tax. It came with a rug, a spare MecGar 9rd mag, a IWB clip-on holster, a pocket holster, and 50rds of winchester pellet nose ammo.
It has been 100% reliable, and is surprisingly accurate. My club has a set of bowling pin silouettes you can reset from the firing line, and I love impress folks by knocking them down with well aimed shots to the top of the pin.
It does get some pocket carry from time to time...ten rounds can be fired extremely rapidly into a tiny group at close range. I dont mistake it for any kind of super gun, but if those ten dont stop the threat, there is always the Spyderco Endura to fall back on.
I wish there was an FMJ 25acp round that would give an honest 1000fps...

So if 2 9mm's = 1 .45....how many .25's = a .45?

__________________
War Eagle! '10 BCS & '13 SEC

I was pleased to hear that you are doing an article on the .25 ACP. Most gun writers dismiss it with a sneer and probably without ever firing a single shot. Granted it isn't the most powerful round, but the rimless design and round nose jacketed bullet make it feed great in tiny semi autos that frequently balk when chambered for the .22 rimfire. I have a Beretta 950 Jetfire that is totally reliable and surprisingly accurate. Being shot with a .25 ACP in a vital spot can kill a perpetrator just as dead as a .44 Magnum.

Just bought my first-ever 6.35mm Browning (sounds sexier than .25 ACP?) and love it. It's a Beretta Mod. 20 whose slide touched up nicely with a bit of cold blue; overall, it's in excellent condition. It rolled nicely thru a batch of old S&B FMJs and some Hornady 35g XTPs the previous owner gave me with the gun. Back when I was a second lieutenant in the early '80s, a buddy and I both bought Beretta 950s in .22 Short & enjoyed shooting them for fun, but they jammed a fair amount. I'm leery of the little rimmed cartridges. . . .

I'd spent almost 40 years despising .25's, having read the old stories common in the gunzines about this miserable, no-'count cartridge that nobody in his right mind would ever carry. I never actually needed to shoot one to know it was beneath contempt and essentially suicidal for its user, cuz Jeff Cooper and others told me so. :-)

Nobody on this forum would ever advocate wearing a .25 on his belt for a general purpose sidearm, of course. Count me, however, as another convert to this type of gun and caliber for the use it was intended for: concealed carry by a guy that the BG doesn't expect to offer armed resistance, because I'm dressed in light clothing in the brutal Louisiana August heat & couldn't possibly be carrying concealed, right? I also have a .32 Tomcat, .32 Beretta Mod. 1953 (?), .380 Mod. 84F, and 9mm Mod. Px4 sub-compact, as well as my trusty revolvers in .38 S&W and .38 SPL. . .but welcome the tiniest of them all as a handy tool within its limits, when other options may not get carried at all.

Thanks to Bryan and the OP for all the interesting tests, as well as to many posters who've provided a lot of evidence that this cartridge has survived for over 100 years for some discernible reason. :-)

No one wants to be shot....not even with a .25

I agree 100%. I have a lot of large caliber options for concealed carry but usually end up carrying either my S&W 638 or my Ruger LCP. I also have a NAA .22 mag mini revolver that I sometimes carry. If I had my druthers I would be carrying a vaporizer gun. However, since this is real life I make do with what I can comfortably carry.

I have owned a Beretta 950 for many years(and reload for it). The primary advantage of a .25 over a .22 in an auto is feeding reliability. The .25 also has a LOT fewer duds in a box of 50!!

Lee's comment on European .25 ammo being 'hotter' needs to be qualified. I bought a box of Fiocchi .25 for my Beretta( Italian gun/Italian ammo).....makes sense.....right? That Fiocchi could NOT work the slide of the 950!

__________________
Bob.
SWCA 1821

A man in Benton County MN was sentenced yesterday for killing a man he was playing cards with. He had placed a .25 caliber pistol to his victims chest. The bullet went through his heart and lungs and came to rest in his shoulder. He got 30.5 years.

__________________
I like Ike.

I just don't think you could get a .380 ACP in a package the size of this Colt .25 ACP.

__________________
- Change it back -

Check out a 'Seecamp'. I'm not a .25 basher though. The reason so many 'experts' say a .22LR is more powerful is because they are looking at Mfg.'s published performance data for the .22LR . Which is of course intened for rifles.

If the .25ACP was so inferior to a .22, I doubt JMB would have bothered with it.

For those who quote Col. Cooper so freely, I think he also said. "A .25 in your pocket is more powerful then a .357, in your gun safe."

In 1986 I was working in the ER at the Washington Hospital Center in D.C. A call comes in from an in-bound ambo that they have a patient with multiple GSWs to the chest.

This hospital has a large and excellent trauma unit, and they geared up for the pending admission.

When the EMTs get the guy--who was conscious and not in a good mood--into the admitting area, the surgeon cuts off his blood-soaked shirt, stops, laughs, asks the nurse to hand him a forceps, and then proceeds to extract four .25 caliber rounds from just below the skin. . .all four had "scuffed" but not penetrated the heavy chest muscles.

I'm just saying. . .


Bullseye

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Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

Therevjay,
Excellent point about Browning's probable views on the matter. After all, he designed this cartridge with the intent of chambering it in a vest pocket-sized gun, which could be intended for only one use: self-defense at extremely close range. Maybe somebody has access to references which would document his intent with the .25ACP, but I presume he wanted a cartridge with power in the .22LR range, yet designed for optimum burn rate in 2" barrels without the flash and report of a .22 designed to burn completely in a rifle-length barrel, plus the reliability of a "central fire" primer & a rimless design optimum for automatic pistols.

Does anyone have access to information comparing the dB levels and/or muzzle flash intensity of short-barreled .22LR and .25ACP pistols? I don't, so I'm only guessing, especially since I'm brand-new to this caliber. I only know that most of my rather substantial hearing loss is probably due to shooting hi-vel .22s in a 4" H&R Mod. 929 as a teen; funny, they sure were a lot more intense-sounding than all the rounds I shot from rifles! (Duh.)

Bullseye,

Wasn't that the case of the ".25 Caliber Sniper," who shot his victims at 100+ yards, firing thru a phone book to mask the report? (OK, just kidding :-)

Your experience is exactly the kind of thing that always made me (and doubtless others) run shy of the .25. It compares with two Cooper stories (IIRC), in which a guy had trouble committing suicide with one and a burly woman absorbed 6 rounds in the chest but simply wanted the cops to retrieve her husband so she could beat him senseless! The suicide case shot himself in the temple, then looked in the mirror, stanched the resulting trickle of blood, and went back downstairs to rejoin the party. He died later.

Seriously, do you have any idea why the four bullets in your ER case failed so completely to penetrate? Leather coat or something, perhaps? I know that skin/hide is amazingly resistant, and it's common for bullets to pass thru humans, deer, etc. and lodge underneath the skin on the opposite side, but I rather doubt the ER physician would have been laughing if the bullets had all entered the guy's back & lodged under the skin of his chest :-) And poor manufacture might make one squib load perform this poorly, but probably not four.

I demonstrated to my own satisfaction this spring that the old story of the .38 S&W (.380 British service cartridge) "failing to penetrate an overcoat" was either aprocryphal or the result of damaged/substandard ammunition. I am at a loss to explain the complete failure you witnessed with the .25ACP. Any ideas?

Louisiana Man,

I am sorry, but I don't. I wasn't at the scene of the shooting. This would have been February or early March, so a heavy coat is a possibility.


Bullseye

__________________
Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

I have heard that some of the cheap 25's have very loose tolerances, I.E. loose oversize bores. Those would not develope the muzzle velocity of a properly sized bore.
I know that I once fired my Beretta 21a in 25acp into a stack of phone books. One round of FMJ, one round of XTP JHP. The FMJ went through the first phone book and lodged an inch into the second, while the JHP only made about two thirds of the first phone book...did not open at all. I also fired a CCI MiniMag solid into the same stack using a Beretta 21a 22LR. It did about the same as the 25 JHP.

Hi:
Some years in the past a BG surprised one of our Officers and shot the Officer in the chest once and the .25acp jammed on the second round.
The .25 bullet struck the Officer in the chest, followed a rib around and entered the Officer's heart. As the Officer was falling, He drew his .357 service revolver and fired all six rounds. Five of the six rounds were lethal hits and the sixth round was a shoulder hit. Both the Officer and suspect were DOA.
My first homicide call in 1962 was an abused spouse shot the abuser husband with a Colt .25acp in the chest. Husband DOA.
Jimmy

Jimmy,
I have vast respect for LEOs, as most of the people y'all meet on any given day are having the worst day of their lives. The Baton Rouge cops I saw up close many years ago, dealing with a tense domestic situation, were both young officers. . .but they handled the situation like old pros. I was only a teenager, but I could certainly tell that! My heart goes out to the friend you lost.

As for .25s. . .your experiences underline the fact that these so-called "mouse guns" can indeed be lethal. The lesson I draw from the first vignette is simple: keep my weapon clean, and use ammo that feeds as reliably as possible. . .and if I have to START shooting, I need to KEEP shooting!

I've got about 5 boxes of Fiocchi FMJ, and if a couple hundred rounds of it feed smoothly, I'll just stick with them. Nothing against the 35g Hornady XTP JHPs that came with the gun & operate just fine, but I don't want to reduce penetration to obtain mild expansion.

Final note: as mentioned earlier, although I'm just about to begin concealed carry for the first time, I'm not new to weapons. Other, heavier weapons will be my first choice, but down here in Louisiana, the summer heat and humidity just have to be experienced to be believed. At times, a "mouse gun" will be the most practical option for me.

I don't shoot my Mauser 1910 much, but I sure lust after my friend's 25 ACP double rifle. I can't remember having shot a more enjoyable shoulder rifle; it exploded grapefruit quite convincingly at 15 yds, and I made a right and a left on charging bowling pins at 25 yds.

Jan Libourel wrote a wonderful piece in a Guns & Ammo special called "Pocket Pistols" (June 1984) where he compared the .25 ACP and .22 LR in two identical Beretta Model 21A pistols. The .22 LR cme up short of the .25 ACP due to the lighter (and softer) lead bullet. This inhibited the penetration and its effective range, while the .25 ACP's FMJ (generating nearly identical energies) penetrated more deeply due to bullet construction.

One can't deny the immutable laws of physics.

Scott

Sadly, in short barrels both .22 LR and .25 ACP hollow point ammunition doesn't travel fast enough to provide both sufficient penetration and expansion. In these handguns, penetration is your friend! this is where the .25 ACP comes into it's own. When you encounter bones, the soft lead of the .22 LR inhibits penetration even further. The centerfire .25 along with the FMJ bullet profile immediately supersedes the .22 LR. If the rim fire fails to ignite in a PD situation, as they occasionally can and will, you'll be in deep trouble.

Don't buy all the "the .25 ACP won't penetrate" bull pucky. This was the genius of John Moses Browning. A center fire cartridge with a jacketed bullet that would penetrate better than the lead, heel-type bullet being fired from a short-barreled autoloading cartridge with a charge originally designed to be discharged from a minimum of an 18" barreled rifle.

Dy'a think?

Scott

I have never owned a .25, and it never ever appealed to me. Perhaps it was the only .25's you ever heard of was Lorcins or Ravens and the mere ownershiip or possession of one, and you got classed as a thug. They were notorious for Saturday night specials in the area I came from, until Miami Firearms and RG came out with their die cast framed and steel barrel inserts for $49.99 new in the box in .38Special. Our pawn shops were I am at now is full of the "cheap" .25's. Bad as they are they will always have a place in society. When I had a FFL I sold a boat load of .25 Lorcins. Could not get them fast enough.

Someone above questioned whether a .380 can be made as small as a .25. The old Bayard came in .380. Recoil and bite to the shooting hand from blast as the rounds eject might be an issue.

My father had a Walther Model 9 that stung my trigger finger a little as a lad, as I recall. And I do not have fat hands. He had a Bernadelli .25, too, but I never shot it. It seemed well made, but I don't think it has a reputation for particularly reliable operation. Do any of you own one? I'm pretty sure that it was inspired somewhat by the Walther Model 9, with open top slide.

I want a Beretta M-950B .25 and if I didn't always need the money more for other things I'd hunt down a prisitine Baby Browning or a stainless Fraser/Bauer copy.

The Countess of Ramonones in Spain was originally an American woman, an OSS agent in WW II. Stationed in Spain, she klled a gypsy who came at her with a knife, using a .25 Beretta. Model of Beretta not stated, but it was OSS- issued to agents in Madrid at that time. Given the date, it'd be a 318 or 418. I think this was in her first autobiographical book about her adventures as an OSS and later CIA agent, who married into the Spanish nobility. Ask your library or Online for, "The Spy Wore Red," by Aline, Countess of Ramonones (sp).

I've read a bunch about the .25, and it wil kill fast if a vital nerve center is hit, sometimes the heart. Ian Fleming carried a Baby Browning .25 as a Royal Navy Reserve intelligence agent before writing the Bond books. His comment that the fictional Goldfinger shot at his opponent's right eye is telling. Fleming was (in the real world) obsessed with concealment. He had to be.

His evil character in, "Thunderball" who had the atom bombs also had a Colt .25. I don't doubt that a very disciplined man who shoots at one's eyes could kill with a 25 at the ranges involved.

Where Fleming went astray was in having Bond shoot into a railway engine with his Beretta .25. The bullets would never pierce the glass. But that probably applies to most rounds that can be used in a small pistol. Had I written that scene, I'd have had Bond acquire a rifle or SMG from an opponent.

I mentioned that to him in a letter when I had recently graduated high school and already knew a lot more about guns than do most mystery writers. His secretary very courteously replied that he was away, but would see my letter on his return. I suggested that Bond think about wearing a S&W M-36 with three-inch barrel in a Gaylord belt holster. At the time, I forgot the need for the smallest possible gun, for concealment in his work environment. The PPK had arrived several years before, and it's about as big as I think the author thought that Bond could carry. And the Walther .32 holds more ammo than the five-shot S&W revolver.

Later, Geoffrey Boothroyd and I exchanged some letters and Boothroyd felt that the J-frame S&W was the answer, although he favored the Centennial Airweight. After the Model 60 arrived in 1965, he felt that the stainless construction made it easily the Bond gun of choice. But Ian Fleming had died the previous year, so nothing came of that.

I think we both underestimated the .25 Beretta, but the S&W .38's still seem to me a better choice than the PPK .32. The Model 60, in particular, would probably have been my choice for a Bond gun in the 1960's. But I respect the .25 more now than I did, after reading more about its real life effectiveness under ideal circumstances.

As thriller writers go, I think that both Peter O'Donnell (Modesty Blaise books) and Jack Higgins exaggerate the .25. Modesty used (among other guns) a MAB .25 and Higgins's characters often use Colt .25's with JHP ammo, which the author thinks is a LOT more effective than it is. In fairness, they use both PPK .32's and Browning 9mm's when concealment allows.

I want some .25's, but they'll be used in context. In that role, I think they may prove deadly.

The posts here that are actually valid are among the best yet seen on .25 autos. The velocity tests in this topic were wonderful to see. Too often, a short-barrelled .25 is compared to a longer-barrelled .22LR. The .22LR is seldom available in guns the size of the .25. Usually, such guns in .22 chamber the .22 Short, which is less potent and has feeding and priming and bullet integrity issues.

Oh: Fleming had Bond tape the grip of his .25 Beretta, for added thinnesss. I seriously doubt that it'd matter. He certainly should have had the grip safety pinned shut, though.

last post was in 2010 .... Just sayin'

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it just needs more voltage

I agree that the .25 is the low man on the totem pole and .45 is better.

I have and shoot many different rifles and handguns. Many years ago while out in the locale desert on safari with friends we had various Military rifles. I had my last round of .303 British and was going back to camp to get something else with more ammo. I surprised a sitting Jack Rabbit, his back to me, at about 20 feet. Fired the .303 and the rabbit was gone, ran off. I thought I wasted my last round and proceeded walking only to find the bunny shot right through the shoulder blades where I aimed. He ran 15 maybe 20 feet out of sight.

Now, we all know that a .303 British round is more than enough for a rabbit, but he did not STOP right then and there. What make bullets work or not work are a mystery to me

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

If you broke both shoulder blades, how did the rabbit run? Your bullet may have thrown it that distance.

I once shot an anole lizard with a Hi-Std. 22 pistol with HP ammo and it disappeared. I was astounded, and found it, torn almost half in two, some 15-20 feet away. Either the bullet energy threw it that far or a spastic nerve reaction from the repitilian system let it run that far.

I suspect that you were using military ammo in the .303? Jackrabbits are tough, but this surprises me. Still, I've read about some weird things when bullets did or didn't perform as expected.

.22 Short to the left tear duct will fix you right up.

__________________
CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

I own several 25 autos including two 950 B Berettas as well as two
950 Bs in 22 short. I have done some chronographing of various 25
auto 50 gr FMJ factory loads and there can be considerable differencies
in velocitys between brands. I have done penetration tests in wood
and wet newsprint with the 25 and 22 short and 22 LR from short
barreled revolvers. In similar barrel lengths the 25 is way ahead of the
22 LR penetration and the 22 short is not even in the running. Not to
start any disputes but I find stories about 25 FMJ bullets getting
stuck in pectoral muscles with no further penetration impossible to
believe. Jell tests show 25 FMJ penetration of 12"-13" and 32 FMJ
penetration of around 16"-18". In my own limited tests in wood good
32 FMJ ammo will slightly outpenetrate good 380 FMJ. As with any
handgun round shot placement is crucial but carrying a 25 with good
FMJ ammo is a long way from being unarmed.

I didn't realize this thread was a couple years old until I read it start to finish, still enjoyed it a lot. One of the few good things about aging, I might have read this before but after a few months it is all new and enjoyable. If I can find my truck keys I think I'll go have breakfast now.