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  #101  
Old 04-23-2013, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
In similar barrel lengths the 25 is way ahead of the
22 LR penetration and the 22 short is not even in the running. Not to
start any disputes but I find stories about 25 FMJ bullets getting
stuck in pectoral muscles with no further penetration impossible to
believe. Jell tests show 25 FMJ penetration of 12"-13" and 32 FMJ
penetration of around 16"-18". In my own limited tests in wood good
32 FMJ ammo will slightly outpenetrate good 380 FMJ. As with any
handgun round shot placement is crucial but carrying a 25 with good
FMJ ammo is a long way from being unarmed.
This is why I have greater faith in the .32 ACP than the .380. The bullets are generally running out the barrel at the same velocities and the smaller FMJ slugs tend to penetrate more deeply than the larger, heavier slugs (9mm Luger/.45 ACP FMJ ammunition analogy.)

While the .25 ACP is slightly heavier and wider than the .22 LR, the FMJ configuration of the .25 lends itself to deeper penetration. Such is the genius of John Moses Browning.

Scott
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  #102  
Old 04-23-2013, 06:00 PM
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hannstv,
My porous memory is also an advantage in that it lets me watch TV shows, movies, read forum threads, etc. for the first time, over and over again :-)

In the three years since we last gathered around this campfire, I've divested myself of my .25's, but only because something had to go on the chopping block to finance other guns, esp. in caliber .38 S&W. I'll wind up with a .25 again at some point, for all the reasons discussed above. A friend also has a Lee .251-50-TC (or LFP) that's in my garage, and that should allow a handload hotter than FMJ. Combined with the flat point, it might prove a more effective wounding agent than RN-FMJ.
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  #103  
Old 04-23-2013, 06:19 PM
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I knew a guy who had a larger-size pocket pistol in .25 ACP.
I'd never fired one, then, so when I visited his farm we took the pistol and an empty cardboard oil can out in a field near the house.

We set it up against a dirt bank and I fired a magazine at it.
The can stood there through the whole thing, almost unmoved.
I was less than impressed with the round, the gun, and my lousy aim.

When we walked up to look at the can it was full of holes and most were
right where I'd been aiming. The can was so light that it didn't move
as the bullets passed through. I did see it kind of shiver once. One of
my shots went low and hit the top of the metal bottom.

I picked up a Bauer later and carried it a bit. It fit inside the top of
my old cowboy boots best. Haven't fired it in a while. If the snow
ever melts maybe I'll take it out again.
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  #104  
Old 04-23-2013, 06:30 PM
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Here is my take on the 25 acp. Years ago, I had one of the Beretta Jet Fires with the pop up barrel. Neat little pocket gun. One night we were camping out, and for some reason, I decided to shoot a tree. Three shots, then noticed something hit me in the belly, but not that hard.

It was a 25 cal bullet, a fmj. All three shots had bounced off the tree.

Now I was no ballistics expert back then, but I had shot enough squirrels to know a .22 rimfire would penetrate into a tree......

The Jet Fire went down the road. Later, in my law enforcement career, I got to see what a 22 rimfire, especially with hollow points could do to a person. More severe wound potential, in my opinion, then a 25 acp, by quite a bit...

Larry
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  #105  
Old 04-23-2013, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisianaMan View Post
hannstv,
My porous memory is also an advantage in that it lets me watch TV shows, movies, read forum threads, etc. for the first time, over and over again :-)

In the three years since we last gathered around this campfire, I've divested myself of my .25's, but only because something had to go on the chopping block to finance other guns, esp. in caliber .38 S&W. I'll wind up with a .25 again at some point, for all the reasons discussed above. A friend also has a Lee .251-50-TC (or LFP) that's in my garage, and that should allow a handload hotter than FMJ. Combined with the flat point, it might prove a more effective wounding agent than RN-FMJ.
I really enjoyed your search for loads for your 38 S&W's, I think I may have read them on a different forum. Had me interested in one, just never crossed paths with a nice example.
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  #106  
Old 04-24-2013, 12:07 AM
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H&G isn't making moulds any more, but they had a cherry for the 25 ACP bullet. I have a 2 cavity H&G mould for it. The ultimate in something would be one of their 10 cavity moulds in 25 ACP.
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  #107  
Old 04-24-2013, 01:30 AM
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This thread has been a real interesting read. Makes me rethink a lot of things I have heard over the years about the little 25.

It would be nice to have something chambered for a 25 with a little more room for powder. You know, say another 1/8 to 1/4 inch in length. Has anyone ever made anything of this type?

I don't know much about the smaller cal guns, other than 22's, it sounds like it could be made into something really usable with enough powder.
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  #108  
Old 04-24-2013, 07:17 AM
Rgoodwin Rgoodwin is offline
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I bought a Raven Arms 25 S/A somewhere around "75" at Walmart to carry when I traveled. First shot was at a stump about 20 feet away. Bounced back and hit me in the left thigh. Did carry for several years then got married and put it in my gun safe. Been in the safe since 86. Got it out 3 weeks ago and still had 40 of the 50 cartridges I bought with the gun and it shot them quite nicely at 7 yards.
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  #109  
Old 04-24-2013, 08:58 AM
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I've had several .25's over the years but have only this one now. I enjoy shooting it but don't carry it.

It would be better than nothing for defense. At my age I'd rather have the little Colt for self defense than just my in the pocket Case XX 3-blade Stockman...or any currently in style more up to date knife.


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  #110  
Old 04-24-2013, 01:03 PM
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Jan Libourel wrote an article about the .25. He stated that no one seems to like it... except people!

People keep buying and shooting them, and some are dying having been shot by them! Let's face it folks, these are still real guns, that can readily kill.

Scott
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  #111  
Old 04-24-2013, 01:20 PM
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Yes, a round that has many first hand reports of bouncing off of targets back at the shooters is a FINE defensive choice.


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  #112  
Old 04-24-2013, 02:33 PM
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I recall, many years ago, responding to a "Man Down" call and when I arrived this huge guy was dead, face down, in a front yard. No blood and of course no one saw or knew anything.

Examination at the hospital revealed a .25 had entered his armpit and lodged in his heart. No blood b/c hair in the armpit absorbed the blood and hid the wound. Detectives later arrested his poker buddy for murder. I haven't played poker since . . .
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  #113  
Old 04-25-2013, 05:11 PM
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I used to have a Beretta 950 SAO in .25 auto.

I won't debate the ballistics, but I can tell you matter-of-factly that: The ammo, even 'back then', was $20 for 50 rounds and it was hard to find. Meanwhile; .22 ammo is (well, was) $20-$30 for 500 five HUNDRED rounds. so I sold the .25 auto and got...

The MIGHTY BOBCAT! Beretta 21a in .22 LR. In fact I have two of them now: the 'standard' and the older blued version with the smooth front/back grips. I'm actually going to complete my MIGHTY BOBCAT collection with an INOX one - probably this year. I love 'em!

Here's the 'standard'. I can't seem to find a pic of the blued one. Beretta makes the exact same gun in 25 auto too.
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  #114  
Old 04-25-2013, 05:17 PM
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Shooting into a seasoned oak backstop at close range, I had a .25 from a little Browning bounce back and hit me in the shin. No blood, lots of hurt, and some bruising. Not impressed. Any port in a storm but I would never buy one. An old TV showed a .25 being given to a woman for self defense and told to lean into it to get it to work.
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  #115  
Old 04-25-2013, 05:30 PM
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The one point that I think is important in this comparison was only briefly touched on here. That point is the 25acp is a more reliable round than the 22 long rifle in a good quality pistol. If I had to choose between carrying a 22lr or 25acp I'd opt for the 25.
Jim
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  #116  
Old 04-25-2013, 05:43 PM
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A good friend of mine with the OKC police dept. was killed many years ago, 1 shot from a .25 that went into the side and punched right through to his heart. With all due respect to Cooper, make fun of the .25 at your own peril.
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  #117  
Old 04-25-2013, 06:01 PM
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There are times when it is almost impossible to carry a real gun. If someone is attacked and don't have any kind of gun later on if the law does catch them several of their cohorts will give him an alibi and the law will turn him loose. If the person that is attacked has any kind of a gun no matter how small and can get a bullet in the attacker (maybe stomach or intestines) he will go to the hospital and there will be no doubt that he was the attacker. Larry
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  #118  
Old 04-25-2013, 06:08 PM
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I've had 22's, 32's and 38's bounce off assorted targets and come back to hit me also. None of them including the 25acp would I think of as a toy.

They all have lethal capability but everything has limiting factors which are many when simply shooting at assorted objects of different shapes and densities.

There was an attempt to boost the 25cal effectiveness by using the bullet in necked down 32acp and 380acp brass a while back. I don't know what became of that. Higher velocity for sure in a tiny package, but ammo availability no doubt a problem.

An easily concealable handgun is usually not going to be a sledgehammer of a weapon.
Better choices than a .25,,you bet.
But better to have a .25 and know how to use it than have nothing at all.
Or worse yet, have something you are completely unfamiliar with but it boosts your confidence mearly because of the size of hole in the end of the bbl.
That's an accident or tragedy waiting to happen.
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  #119  
Old 04-25-2013, 06:41 PM
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And now... .380s are smaller and lighter than .25s.


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  #120  
Old 04-25-2013, 06:46 PM
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I am occasionally required to attend white tie (tails) functions. No belt, no pockets in the "coat," pants pockets exposed, and you still have to carry your wallet, keys, knife, etc. The ONLY gun I've been able to hide in one of those getups is a Baby Browning - even a P3AT is too big. Not ideal, but it IS a .25 in the pocket . . .

I shoot a magazine or two through it every few years and am always amazed at its accuracy out to 7-10 yards. At the (more likely to be used) arm's length range they are absolute tack drivers.
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  #121  
Old 04-25-2013, 07:52 PM
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One of the oldest firearms I have is a 25 acp. Bought it at an auction years and years ago. I have carry this gun a lot, and shot it a lot. My son and I take it to the range fairly regularly. I am not as good as he is with it, but it shoots very well to about 15 yards. My son is dead eye accurate with it. It is a Intratec (now Kel-Tec) .25acp matte stainless with the ugliest grips you have ever seen. Kind of an off yellow harvest gold color grips. I have never shot anything other than FMJ in it. I can't believe all the negativity I have read in this thread on the .25. Much of it, as someone else stated, I would have to see to believe.

DR
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  #122  
Old 04-25-2013, 08:26 PM
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A .25 Galesi has been my CC pistol for years, and I have never fired it in anger - yet. If I do, it will be effective. My main reason for that choice is because it is light and will ride in a front pants pocket without any indication that it is there. There are not many other handguns that can do that, and it is valuable, as where I live, it is seldom cold enough to wear a coat, and not dressy enough to wear a sports coat or suit jacket which could hide a holstered pistol of larger dimensions. The best and most reliable ammunition I have tried is CCI Blazer FMJ - 100% reliable.
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  #123  
Old 04-25-2013, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketdog View Post
Here's a bit of interesting history, dreadful, concerning Blokhin the executioner and the .25acp....


Vasili Blokhin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yes, base of the skull even .22 short will do.
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  #124  
Old 04-25-2013, 10:02 PM
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When the world was young(circa 1800), gun and ammunition designers started experimenting to see what could be done, and what could be done successfully. By the time we get around to JMB, there had accumulated sufficient data to guess accurately what to expect from various combinations of bullet design, weight, and velocity. From this data we saw the development of the whole line of ACPs: the .25, the .32, the .380, the .38, and the .45. They were designed, along with the arms to use them, to fulfill specific needs, real or imagined, of the gun buying public. They all succeeded to some extent as proven by their continued production and development even to this day. None of them is sufficient to every purpose, but they all fulfill some purpose.

Just don't expect to see me carrying anything less than a .45.
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  #125  
Old 04-25-2013, 11:45 PM
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I sure wish I'da read all this before I bought that little Bryco .25.
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  #126  
Old 04-26-2013, 12:21 AM
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What the original poster failed to take into account is the fact that when the .25 went thru 4 water jugs that is what is wrong with it not a good thing. It means no expansion and little or no temporary wound cavity. Mostly due to the .25 being to slow for most any HP round to expand. A .22LR is not much better because the velocity is a little higher but there are no real HP rounds in .22 LR. Its the temporary and permanent wound cavities that create incapacitation and true knockdown power. Even .32 and .380 are not real great but better bullets have been designed in the last couple of decades that create some expansion even at 1000 FPS., the first being the Win Silvertip.
As for other ACP rounds I'd rather carry a .380 with HP ammo than a .45in FMJ. What I really carry is a 357Sig in 125g Speer Gold Dots, which is one of the better all-around combat rounds, the one most LE units use as the standard ammo all the way up the the Secret Service. Would I carry a .45? Yes but in some kind of double stack firearm.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
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Yes, base of the skull even .22 short will do.
Correct. I am pretty sure the development of specific .22 subsonic ammo (not match ammo which is also subsonic) was tied to the introduction of the internally suppressed CIA assasination Hi-Standard .22. One of my collector friends has one in his collection, including a supply of the rubber O-rings used in the barrel. That was around the time (60's) the firearm was developed.
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  #128  
Old 04-26-2013, 01:58 AM
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Has anyone ever made one with a longer barrel? Seems like a longer barrel would make a pretty good round out of the little 25.
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  #129  
Old 04-26-2013, 02:08 AM
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Here's my little 25acp.

Haven't shot it yet but I did buy a few mag's. Don't know if it will be a backup carry or not. I just wanted to buy something new one day last year and this was the one

Mike
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:18 AM
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It seems every few years the debate over the effectiveness of the little .25 auto and .22 LR come up in one forum or the other. I worked for 16 years in Homicide in a midwest city that saw over 300 homicides per year when times were different.

The majority of those were with these little rounds, because that was just the era I worked in. Yes, sometimes it took someone a few hours to die, but many others dropped on the spot. And yes, there are exceptions that can be documented for both the little calibers and the larger calibers, but they are just that - exceptions. Heck, we had a suspect in the back of the marked cruiser reach through the pass-through in the screen and put a .357 right behind the ear of an officer and fired. The round went right through - side to side - and he's alive and well today.

None of us disagree that the larger, higher velocity calibers are more effective, but sometimes you just aren't in a place or dressed properly to carry those larger guns, and the little .25 auto is a whole lot better than nothing....
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:52 AM
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Best to bring your 25 auto to a gunfight rather than your two fists

Mike
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:40 AM
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Great thread!

I'm taking my .25's out for a shoot...
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Old 04-26-2013, 01:12 PM
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Terrific thread. The fact that this thread spans three pages (and counting) and a number of years says a lot about the .25 ACP. A lot of good and thoughtful comments-both pro and con. I have three of these little pistols, and although, they may not be a top choice for self defense, I have always considered carry pistols to be like cameras, the best one for the job is the one that you have with you.
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:14 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFrameFred View Post
In the Ian Fleming novel Ari Goldfinger was discussing his use of the .25 acp against Bond's "powerhouse" .32 Walther.

He said something to the effect that he "didn't need anything larger because I aim for the right eye and I never miss"

He wasn't claiming to be a great shot . . . just, that when he used it, it was up close and personal.

Lot's of better things to carry, but they'll all kill ya . . . .
Remember......Bond carried a Beretta .25 because he could hide it while wearing a tuxedo. He was forced to give it up for the Walther 7.65mm (.32 acp) because of what happened at the end of the book version of "From Russia With Love".
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by policerevolvercollector View Post
Remember......Bond carried a Beretta .25 because he could hide it while wearing a tuxedo. He was forced to give it up for the Walther 7.65mm (.32 acp) because of what happened at the end of the book version of "From Russia With Love".

I think Goldfinger's first name was Auric, not Ari, as posted above.

See, "Dr. No" for the scene where Bond changed guns. The "Maj. Boothroyd" who appeared in the book and movie was based on a real Scots gun writer named Geoffrey Boothroyd, who advised Fleming on guns. His, "The Handgun" is probably the greatest book on the subject yet written. It is often available quite cheaply Online. He looked nothing like the actor who played Boothroyd in the movie.

See my earlier post in this thread for more on Bond guns, inc. Boothroyd's take on the matter. I treasure a letter that I received from him soon after I graduated high school. I was already a Bond fan.
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  #136  
Old 04-27-2013, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photoracer View Post
As for other ACP rounds I'd rather carry a .380 with HP ammo than a .45in FMJ.
Expansion isn't the do-all and end-all that so many think it is.

I'll take a .380 over a .25 but I particularly do not want any sort of expanding bullet with either. Penetration to the "good stuff" must be assured above all other considerations.

They've yet to make the .380 load that will whip .45 ACP FMJ ball ammo. It's just a matter of 230 grains of .45 caliber goodness versus 90-100 grains of "it might open up and then again it might not." And if it opens up it'll still have a hard time being as big around as the .45 is as it exits the muzzle.

The .45 ACP ball load is effective with good hits and no hollow point will make up for bad hits.
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:53 PM
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How well does the 40 SW do?

Mike
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
Expansion isn't the do-all and end-all that so many think it is.

I'll take a .380 over a .25 but I particularly do not want any sort of expanding bullet with either. Penetration to the "good stuff" must be assured above all other considerations.

They've yet to make the .380 load that will whip .45 ACP FMJ ball ammo. It's just a matter of 230 grains of .45 caliber goodness versus 90-100 grains of "it might open up and then again it might not." And if it opens up it'll still have a hard time being as big around as the .45 is as it exits the muzzle.

The .45 ACP ball load is effective with good hits and no hollow point will make up for bad hits.
Bryce: You are 100% correct. I have more faith in accuracy and penetration than expansion. The .25 will ALWAYS win out over the .22 LR because of accuracy and penetration. The FMJ permits the 50 grain slug greater efficiency from the shorter barrel than the .22 LR could EVER achieve. The soft lead of the .22 LR inhibits penetration if it strikes bone. (I don't know how to break it to you .22 LE fan boys, but it is the nature of copper clad lead bullets.) Anyone that buys the "bouncing around inside the body" horse hockey will also believe in the tooth fairy! Sorry, this phenomenon is an "urban legend" if I have ever heard one!

John Moses Browning created the .25 ACP for:

a) Accuracy,

b) penetration (due to the original FMJ bullet)

c) center fire dependability and,

d) short case efficiency (short case, short barrel and fast-burning propellants.)

This illustrates JMB's genius.

Scott

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Old 04-30-2013, 12:30 AM
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Erich Martel, (an attorney that once worked with the DA's office in conjunction with the Albuquerque Coroner's Office) told me that the most effective ammunition used in both .32 and .380 ACP exhibited their highest levels of performance with FMJ ammunition.

Erich put it this way:

"If the projectiles being fire are leaving the handgun's muzzle at subsonic velocities, why would you put 'speed brakes' on the slug, thus preventing needed penetration to damage the vital organs?"

In the course of hundreds of homicide investigations, the slower .32 and .380 shootings that had used FMJ ammunition were statistically more likely to achieve the desired results.

The defense... rests.

Scott
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  #140  
Old 04-30-2013, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrash View Post
This thread has been a real interesting read. Makes me rethink a lot of things I have heard over the years about the little 25.

It would be nice to have something chambered for a 25 with a little more room for powder. You know, say another 1/8 to 1/4 inch in length. Has anyone ever made anything of this type?

I don't know much about the smaller cal guns, other than 22's, it sounds like it could be made into something really usable with enough powder.
The .25 NAA is the answer to your quest. A .32 ACP case that has been "necked down" to accept a .251" 50 grain, .25 cal. bullet.

I have always wanted to have a gunsmith/barrel maker fabricate a barrel for my Zastava M70 "Tokarev" type pistol in chambered for the .25 NAA. 3.7" of "runway" would make the .25 NAA reach about 1375 fps and yield about 209 fpe. This would be quite effective in punching through bones and tissue. 8+1 of these rounds would more than likely break off nearly any human threat.

Scott
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  #141  
Old 04-30-2013, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil One View Post
I was shot in the chest with a .25.
It stopped in my sternum.
I have a nice crater where it hit.
My best friend pulled it out with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Sorry, I wouldnt carry a .25.


Jim
The relevant question is...where you in the process of commiting an assault on someone, and if so, did the round STOP you?
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  #142  
Old 04-30-2013, 08:58 PM
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Whether or not someone was dissuaded from continuing criminal activity by a .25 ACP is rather subjective.

Often being shot, in any manner, will change someone's mind. Altering conscious thought to deter someone from further criminal activity can be difficult to determine.

Scott
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  #143  
Old 05-01-2013, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunfan View Post
The .25 NAA is the answer to your quest. A .32 ACP case that has been "necked down" to accept a .251" 50 grain, .25 cal. bullet.


Scott

That sounds good, but I think that it would be more practical on several levels to stick with a round that is more widely available If you can go that far you could probably move up to a small 9mm.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailslide View Post
That sounds good, but I think that it would be more practical on several levels to stick with a round that is more widely available If you can go that far you could probably move up to a small 9mm.
I remember an old magazine article about increasing the
effectiveness and penetration of the 25 acp. I may still have
it somewhere in one of my storage tubs, i'll look. The author
chose to stick with the standard 25 acp case and use his own
bullet design. He turned solid brass bullets from 1/4" brass
round stock on a mini lathe. He settled on a bevel base bullet
with a point tapered to a sharp point that weighed 35 grs
rather than the typical 50 gr FMJ. He loaded them over enough
Unique to get over 1100 fps out of a Beretta 950 and did some
penetration tests. He said they out penetrated any other auto
pistol factory FMJ rounds in all test media. I don't know if
such rounds would be legal to assemble under current laws
but it shows what could be done if someone were so inclined.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:49 PM
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Don't remember who said it but "a .22 in the eye is better than a .44 in the thigh!" Placement,placement , placement. If you know you are going to a gunfight take MINIMUM 12ga. with slugs. Otherwise anything is better than nothing. Mark
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  #146  
Old 05-01-2013, 11:09 PM
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I knew a guy that wouldn't leave a jealous guy's girlfriend alone. The story went something on the lines of he was in a telephone booth and guy walked up and started shooting. After the guy ran out of bullets he ran away, the guy knew he had been shot, there was blood all over but otherwise he could walk and made it to the nearby hospital. He had been shot 4 or 5 times in the head, through the glass windows of the phone booth, none of the bullets had penetrated his skull or injured his eyes, ears, etc. He completely recovered with hardly a scar. I told him he was lucky the guy didn't open the door. The bullet was .25acp, I think because of that I've never considered owning one.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.38 View Post
I always liked what Col. Jeff Cooper said about the .25. If you shoot someone with a .25 and he finds out about it he is really going to be mad at you.
This is the most oft quoted remark I hear about the .25 ACP... also the most ignorant and ill conceived.

If anyone would care to let me 'surprise' someone in either the neck, throat or face with my .25, simply sign a notarized waiver and I'll hand load some hot Bryce McGillvray loads to 'energize' your afternoon! (If you survive, you must decline prosecution at ANYTIME, regardless of circumstance!)

Any takers?

Scott
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:06 AM
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Sign me up

JK

Mike
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailslide View Post
That sounds good, but I think that it would be more practical on several levels to stick with a round that is more widely available If you can go that far you could probably move up to a small 9mm.

Cor-Bon has two loads for the .25 NAA a 60 grain JHP and a 71 grain FMJ load. Given the number of NAA Guardian pistols already chambered for the caliber, I don't think that they will be discontinuing production anytime soon. (Aside from that, .32 ACP casings can always be "necked down" to hand load the cartridge.)

Scott
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunfan View Post
Cor-Bon has two loads for the .25 NAA a 60 grain JHP and a 71 grain FMJ load. Given the number of NAA Guardian pistols already chambered for the caliber, I don't think that they will be discontinuing production anytime soon. (Aside from that, .32 ACP casings can always be "necked down" to hand load the cartridge.)

Scott
The problem I have with this is that I CCW always. If worse came to worst and I had to draw and fire, I would have a lot of explaining to do, no matter how straight forward it might seem. It would be a lot easier to explain factory ammo, in a recognized caliber, than something like this.
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