Ok Guys....I know this is the Smith and Wesson Forum but....Colt revolvers, Are they all they have been touted to be? I keep hearing that they will go out of time at the drop of a hat. That alone makes me hesitant to purchase one for serious carry. I have owned a couple police positives but mostly just for truck guns or plinkers (usually bought them for really good i.e. cheap prices). So what gives. I know they have factory sweet trigger pulls. Other than that,can anyone elaborate for me? Would you guys consider for example say a Colt DS II, Offical Police, or any other model as a good bet your life on carry piece?

Thanks,
Trey

I carry a Diamondback with a 2 1/2" barrel as my back up gun on duty. Used to carry a Python as a duty gun when we were allowed. I have qualified with and carried Official Police revolvers as off duty guns. So I have staked my life on Colt revolvers many times, and will continue to do so. I have 3 or 4 Smith Model 10's that have at least one chamber that doesn't lock up in slow double action. I only have one Colt like that and it was made in 1950. Not knocking Smiths, they are great guns, but the **** about Colts being fragile is just that, ****.

Thank you that is the kind of feed back that I have wanted to know. What about the going out of time thing?

Thanks
Trey

Nonsense, probably started by Bill Ruger or Smith-Wesson.

Ok thank you Ladder!

So what are your thoughts on push vs pull cyclender releases?

Trey

Nothing wrong at all with colts in offical police, officers model matchs or the old troopers. When I hired into lockheed in 1965 as a guard we carried the 4" offical police,s for a lot of years. Now I know being a guard isnt near as impressive as a regular leo. But consider, we usualy had about a 150 man department, thats a lot of guns and men carrying them 24/7/52, and I never seen a broke one. We did qualify with them. I ran a few dates and belive lockheed must have bought them durring the korean war. Eventualy we went to security sixs and s&w 586s, but I stuck with mostly the colts untill I retired in 2000.
I carried a .357 trooper quite awhile too. I still have several troopers and pythons and I have NEVER sent one in for repair.
The old troopers are my favorites. Same gun as the python, a little lighter as they dont have the ejector houseing and heavy ribbed barrel. A lot cheaper, handle better because they are lighter and just as accurate.
Unless you get custom grips, I will say the grip frame on a K or N frame does feel a little better than a colt to me, however I have other grips.

The lockwork design may be a bit more delicate and older than the Comparable Smiths, but those Colts have been through a bunch of wars and held up just fine. I just smoked a bunch od young coppers with bottom feeders in an informal contest with a Colt Agent (D Frame) with a hammer shroud. Those old Colts are dead-balls accurate.

They don't have "The Lock" !


OK, I couldn't resist!

I have an older Det. Special, and it shoots better than any other snub I own. Timing is perfect, it locks up tight as a drum, and it shoots POA everytime. I could not ask any more from a small revolver. I would carry it in a heartbeat with absolutely no fear that it would not do it's part.

I don't mind the cylinder latch being opposite of my S&Ws. I never thought it was an issue. Just a different set up.


WG840

__________________
Freedom above all else.

I have owned some Colts, and posted about some of them on this board. I did carry a Trooper (pre -MK III) and a New Service .45 Colt, and a Python at times when they were my primary defense items. As a teen, I often used a M-1917 (New Service variant) as a house gun. (I didn't have a father, so home defense was up to me. My mother and two brothers hadn't a clue.)

Those guns, and a Police Positive Special at times, served okay. I rotated them with a Colt .45 auto and several S&W and Webley revolvers. I also saw some Colts in use in the USAF. And for years, I frequented a gun shop, where I examined MANY used Colts. I have a friend who was told by Jim Clark, the famous gunsmith, that he couldn't be sure that a Python that he'd timed wouldn't be back for more work within a few hundred rounds. Using .357 ammo caused more wear than .38's, BTW, or so he said. Probably true of all brands.

IF you can find a modern gunsmith who will even work on a Colt revolver, he will probably charge more than for Ruger or S&W work. And the gun will go back out-of-time sooner!

A very famous gun writer, who was until quite recently the shooting editor at a major outdoor magazine, discussed just this issue in one of his books. He, too, concluded that Colts don't hold their timing as well. And this guy has done a lot of gun tuning.

Massad Ayoob reported that a primary cause of the MK III and later Colts being introduced was to improve cylinder timing, as well as to lower manufacturing costs. (Being smarter than me, he may avoid this thread if he sees it. He is a member here.) I believe I recall him writing that Colt lost police sales to S&W over this very issue!

Another point to consider is that N-frame .38-44 and .357 S&W guns also go out-of-time sooner than smaller ones. Why? Look at that massive cylinder! The hand takes added wear in use! This doesn't happen in .41, .44, and .45 N-frames, because more steel is bored out of the cylinders for the larger ammo. The N-frame was designed around the .44 Special cartridge.

With modern steels and heat treatments, smaller cylinders can be used than was the case with the M-27 and M-28 S&W guns. The Colt .41 (Python) frame seems to be about ideal for .357 ammo, and Ruger GP-100 and S&W L-frame guns are on par. K-frames hold timing better than N-frames, I think, but are more likely to crack barrel throats with really hot loads and indifferent cleaning. Some K-Mag barrels may also have suffered from faulty heat treatment, over the years. (No, I don't know which batches of guns were questionable. That's never been released data. )

K-frame .357's do develop cylinder endshake sooner than larger Smiths, if shot enough with heavy loads. That has been borne out by my observation and in conversations with gunsmiths and police armorers. I've also discussed it with ammo company engineers, to whom I had access by virtue of being a gun writer.

I'm getting tired of going over this matter. Maybe the topic should be a "sticky." It's an often- asked question.

OP, do this: ask QUALIFIED gunsmiths what they think of the Colt timing issue. Don't ask someone whose shop is trying to sell you the gun. Ask independent repairmen, if you can still find any who work on Colts. The very paucity of men who'll repair a Colt should tell you something.

One member in a different thread here said that the Colt timing issue is just BS. Because that contradicts what I'd posted, I took it personally.

I've had my say, and seem to be in the minority here. And I'm not claiming that a Colt is a bad gun, when it's in tune. It isn't, although the sights are more likely to be "off" on fixed -sighted guns. Col. Askins had to turn most of the Colt barrels on the guns that he bought for the Border Patrol in the 1930's. (To bring the sights in line.) I asked why he didn't just buy S&W Heavy Duty .38-44's. He told me that the Smith salesmen were snobs, and that he liked the Colt men better! So much for govt. purchases...In evaluating this, keep in mind that Chas. Askins had a certain personality, which might just not have endeared him to the Smith lads as much as to the Colt ones, who were more in tune with his nature.

For the record, the Colt service grip fits my hand better than equivalent S&W's. (Replacement grips will nullify this advantage.) I think that Frank Pachmayr noticed this, and I believe that his Presentation grip was based on Colt's more oval symmetry. But that's just a guess, based on how the small size Pachmayr fits my hands.

It would be useful if more men here who've encountered a lot of Colts speak out. I've given my honest view. I hope it helped, and that no one is just trying to find excuses to defy the accumulation of data.

T-Star

colt makes a fine gun...i have the trooper mark 111...anaconda...python...offical police...and have had others...they all shoot fine and i have never had any in for repair

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

The "Colt timing issue" seems to assume that all Colts have the same lockwork. That is not so. Older Colts + the Pythons had a more intricate lockwork that is more maintenance intensive but pays you back with higher accuracy. As far as finding a gunsmith, Colt can still work on them. The newer Colt designs after about 1969 were a simpler and more massive design that is less sensitive to abuse and not as precision. Colt King Cobras and Anacondas have this lockwork. I don't think you'll hear of the dreaded timing issues very often with these models but you won't hear people remarking how superbly accurate they are either.

The older style (pre MkIII) Colt DA revolvers do suffer from timing problems more often than S&W's in guns with similar use.
Just something I've seen after working on them and others over the last 40+ years/

Just handle and check the timing on those that you see at any large gun show to get a good sampling (ask to handle first!).
Use the correct method to check the SA and DA followup and lockup and very often the old Colts with some use will be out of time if not only on DA then on both SA and DA.
Some will show little use and still be out of time.
Common for the timing to be out on a couple of chambers and be fine on the rest.


The bolt should fall and lock the cylinder on DA just BEFORE the hammer drops on DA,,,not AS the hammer drops as is most often the case and unfortunately the accepted norm these days.

Yes S&W's go out too but the design of the system (hand and ratchet) makes it a much less common problem in normal service.

I love the old DA Colts too, but it's just the nature of the design and something that is a common occurance.

If you want an answer to your question from a real expert on the topic, one is provided by Colt guru Grant Cunningham in an article entitled, "Is the Colt Python Delicate?" You will find it near the bottom of his blogs here:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_...revolvers.html

I've shot and owned a wide variety of revolver Colts for over 40 years.

I've never had a 'timing issue'.

I've never had to work on my Colt revolvers to get them to function, or to keep functioning. Probably just luck.

As was the 625-8 firing pin that fell out and locked up my Smith at the range a couple weeks ago.

re: "push vs pull" latch
To me, it is more natural using the Colt pull design, as I learned on that style. The position of the revolver falls to my hand for recharging much easier than the Smith push design.

But I've adapted as much as possible to the difference and don't move fast enough these days for it to be an issue in either case.

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

The question was do Colts fall out of time at "the drop of a hat"? The answer clearly is no, not at the drop of a hat.

Thank you everyone for your replies. As a new gunsmith east of the Mississippi River, most of what i have seen and grown up with are smiths. The Smith design is just so easy to work on. I popped the plate off of a police positive one day and was amazed at the lock work inside of the little Colt. The reason I asked this question was not to start any this vs that firestorm. It was for my own edifaction. I am not all that familiar with Colts and have an opportunity to buy a Stainless Detective Special. So many of you have put my fears to rest. Thank you!

Trey
The original poster!

In the real world, at least mine, how many of us shoot a colt enough to get it out of time? I suppose there are competiters out there that do.
But at the same time, at least many years ago, it seems that colts was also a huge first choice. Why?
Most of us gun nuts have many guns. That gives them all a rest over what a avid shooter gives his, if he has just a couple.
I went shooting yesterday. As usual I took too many guns with me. One was a beautifull nickle trooper I had bought about a year ago from one of our members here. I shot it off the bench and it is very accurate.
The way I do things, I take my guns out, see where they hit with favorite ammo, adjust the sights if they are adjustable, and after that I really dont shoot the gun a lot. Seems I move on to other guns in my collection. I carry a couple a lot, dont really shoot them much, and the rest get lost in the safe for maybe a couple of years when I repeat the process.
How many times a day on this site do we read about someone buying a gun, usualy a probable ex LEOs gun, and read that "except for slight carry wear, it looks like it was hardly shot!"
Of course we all have seen beat up older guns. I think in those case,s the past owners werent real gun nuts but people that didnt even know how to take care of them. I have several guns that my dad bought back in the 1930s that were heavy used as he hunted a lot and owned just a few of the basics, a remington 12 guage model 31, a 22 lr in a winchester model 61 and about three centerfire rifles. I grew up with them too. When I go around and see beat up .22 rifles I really wonder how they got that way as few guns were ever used much more than that 61 winchester of dads, and I would still rate it at 80%.
Lets put it this way. How many of you gun people have actualy bought a new colt trooper, python or another model colt built from the late 60s, on back, and have shot that gun enough where you have had to send it back to colt or a gunsmith to get timed?

I have quite a number of S&W double action revolvers, but only a few Colts. It's not by accident. The four I have are mostly collector's items. Here they are:

A Colt Commando, made in 1943:



A nickeled 4" Python - I've only shot it once or twice.



A very early U.S. Model 1917 Colt, made in 1917, with bored-through chambers (no headspace ridges):



A Detective Special, 2nd series, manufactured in May, 1959. Still a pretty good belly gun:



I shoot my Smiths pretty regularly, but the Colts, such as they are, very sparingly if at all. I've read that they do get out of tune faster, but would have to guess that they will all render good service if called upon for many years to come.

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I adore my two, but they're pets, not workers.

I do not shoot competitively. I do not shoot any particular handgun a lot. I did research the Colt "timing issue" and realized that, for me, I will buy Colts that lock up properly regardless of age and shoot them till I sell them [probably in about 15 or 20 years] and they will probably still lock up tight.

I have not found the Colts [3 Official Police{s}, and a Python] more accurate than S&W and in the case of the OPs they are less accurate by a 1/2 inch or so, not a big deal. I did find that two out of the three shot a bit left but at most 2 inches left at 25 yards, again for guns I am plinking with, not a big deal.

There is enough evidence either way that for a truly competitve shooter that person should evaluate their needs and buy accordingly. I can physically see where the lockwork of the Colt can wear and get out of time quicker, AND the number of gunsmiths who can actually work on Colts is very minimal. In all fairness the number of gunsmiths who can actually work on Smiths is getting rare as well.

I have several of the Colts now and all of them feel great in my hands with factory stocks. Where as certain S&Ws [for me] require aftermarket stocks or altered factory stocks.

To me, for the average shooter, pick which one you like and enjoy it.

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Have guns...will shoot'em.

My first colt was a trooper mk III satin nickle and it was true to me till the day I sold it to a friend. I also bought my father a colt Agent alloy and he never had a problem. My only colt I have now is a very nice police positive 4 inch I have not shot.....yet. But I think I will. It's a bare bones kind of revolver but has a nostalgic look all it's own. I tend to favor older type revolvers and pistols as they took more effort to make. Unlike these injection moulded pistols of today. Look at the new Ruger poly revolver and tell me flame cutting is not a worry on that poly frame top strap. I don't know, just call me old fashioned. Here is the colt police positive I was talking about.

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Look at that gun again. I think you probably have a Police Positive SPECIAL, not a Police Positive. The dead giveaway is the longer frame. If it's a .38, it'll probably take .38 Special, not .38 New Police, .38 S&W regular, etc.

BUT...Colt later changed this gun's name to just Police Positive after the shorter-framed gun was discontinued. At a guess, I think that was in the 1970's. Surely, long after this one was made.

T-Star

I have a Colt Agent & a S&W Model 38. Both are 38 specials & 2 inch barrels. My friend & I shot them last week, put about 100 rounds thru both. We agree the Colt has a better double action pull but the Smith has better single action trigger pull. Both are accurate enough for social work.

I have three Colts.
A Diamondback .38, and two Officer's Model .38's.

One of my Officer's Models (from about 1912) was terribly out of time...I had a heck of a time finding someone that even knew how to work on it and making it work correctly, and then getting the parts!

Why someone doesn't make reproduction "wear" parts for Colts, I don't know. I don't think there is enough out there, or perhaps there is no demand.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

Yep. That is the definitive answer, in my view.