Renamed Mannlicher-Schoenauer thread, with new pics

[Raider]

Thank you for the photos and writeup about your MS. I too have a 1903 Mannlicher in 6.5x54 with double set triggers. Its a sweet little rifle and has accounted for two nice bucks. My wife is the real Mannlicher afficionado whose greatest prize rifle is a full stocked 1950 model in 7x57. Just get her started and she can talk all day about them. LOL! I would post photos of them both but my camera is on the blink and haven't got it repaired yet.

AS an aside, W.D.M. (Karamojo) Bell, while best known for his love of 7x57 Mauser caliber rifles, also owned a 1903 full stocked MS in 6.5x54 that he thought highly of; it accounted for many head of African game.

Charlie

[Gatorbaiter]

David, I just saw this post and had to congratulate you on your MS. I too used to dream about owning one when I was a teen ager and reading about the PH's in Africa. I finally was able to gather up a small collection the past few years.

My favorite is a 1950 mdl 6.5x54 Carbine with double set triggers. It is my favorite deer rifle and always drops them with one shot. I developed a handload that puts three shots in one hole @ 100 yds!

[semperfi71]

Very enjoyable thread. Congratulations to all on your Mannlichers.

Very beautiful pieces of machinery.

I too always saw the romanticsim and history of the true Mannlichers and therefore wanted one. However they are priced outside of what I would care to pay.

As a "third best" choice I have a Ruger RSI Mannlicher in .243 Winchester.

At one time Interarms imported a Mauser/Mannlicher with a butter-knife bolt and double set triggers, but it was no competition to a real Mannlicher.

Winchester and Sako also made Mannlichers but they always looked like clubs to me.

[Kwizard]

Howdy,
I know this is an old thread; but it contains great info, and needs to be carried forward.
Like some of you guys; I too fell in love with these little wonders back in the 50's. It's a love that has now carried into my senior years. That love has now born fruit; as I have just received my first 1903 today. It's not as nice as the ones pictured. It most definitely has seen a lot of use. It has also had some poor amateurish stock refinishing that will take a bit of time to reverse. But; since I only paid $750 for it; I can afford to do it right; or even replace it entirely. The mechanisms, metal finish, and bore are all in great condition, and have not been molested. It has never even been drilled and tapped. Please believe me when I tell you that I am one happy camper.
I see that ammo is very scarce and high priced; which brings up my reason for posting. Does anyone know what other rounds might be used? I see that the 6.5 Carcano, and the 6.5 Swede are very close, and readily available at half the price of the MS rounds.. It looks like the Carcano might be fire formed; but that the chamber will have to be slightly lengthened and the shoulder angle increased a bit, and bolt face turned out some to accommodate the Swede. Are either of these ideas do-able, safe, or even feasible? Any comment will be appreciated.
Regards from Texas,
Larry

[Gatorbaiter]

Originally Posted by Kwizard

Howdy,
I know this is an old thread; but it contains great info, and needs to be carried forward.
Like some of you guys; I too fell in love with these little wonders back in the 50's. It's a love that has now carried into my senior years. That love has now born fruit; as I have just received my first 1903 today. It's not as nice as the ones pictured. It most definitely has seen a lot of use. It has also had some poor amateurish stock refinishing that will take a bit of time to reverse. But; since I only paid $750 for it; I can afford to do it right; or even replace it entirely. The mechanisms, metal finish, and bore are all in great condition, and have not been molested. It has never even been drilled and tapped. Please believe me when I tell you that I am one happy camper.
I see that ammo is very scarce and high priced; which brings up my reason for posting. Does anyone know what other rounds might be used? I see that the 6.5 Carcano, and the 6.5 Swiss are very close, and readily available at half the price of the MS rounds.. It looks like the Carcano might be fire formed; but that the chamber will have to be slightly lengthened to accommodate the Swiss. Are either of these ideas do-able, safe, or even feasible? Any comment will be appreciated.
Regards from Texas,
Larry

Larry,

The other calibers that you list are not interchangable with the 6.5x54 MS. Graf & Sons has Norma brass for $18.60/20 and PRVI brass for $50/100. PRVI brass is good brass, I use it in several calibers. Midway has Norma brass for $25.50/20. If you handload, that is the way to go. What part of Texas are you in? I'm in SE Texas near Beaumont/Houston. If you don't handload, maybe we could get together and load some cartridges for you.
Hugh
[email protected]

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by Kwizard

Howdy,
I know this is an old thread; but it contains great info, and needs to be carried forward.
Like some of you guys; I too fell in love with these little wonders back in the 50's. It's a love that has now carried into my senior years. That love has now born fruit; as I have just received my first 1903 today. It's not as nice as the ones pictured. It most definitely has seen a lot of use. It has also had some poor amateurish stock refinishing that will take a bit of time to reverse. But; since I only paid $750 for it; I can afford to do it right; or even replace it entirely. The mechanisms, metal finish, and bore are all in great condition, and have not been molested. It has never even been drilled and tapped. Please believe me when I tell you that I am one happy camper.
I see that ammo is very scarce and high priced; which brings up my reason for posting. Does anyone know what other rounds might be used? I see that the 6.5 Carcano, and the 6.5 Swiss are very close, and readily available at half the price of the MS rounds.. It looks like the Carcano might be fire formed; but that the chamber will have to be slightly lengthened to accommodate the Swiss. Are either of these ideas do-able, safe, or even feasible? Any comment will be appreciated.
Regards from Texas,
Larry

Larry-

There is no 6.5mm Swiss! Do you mean 6.5X55mm Swedish? Some modern foreign loads might be a bit hot for your rifle, even if you can find a gunsmith qualified to do a conversion. The revolving magazine may have to be modified, and you'd damage any collector value if you alter the rifle beyond a skilled refinish.

I'd ask SDH here in a PM, if need be. He is a famous custom gunsmith and may know. Or, call the Colo. School of Trades and see if their students or instructors have done such a conversion.

I once owned an 8X56mm M-S that came with an old box of Western ammo made in the 1930's. I found some DWM ammo then imported by Speer, but they no longer bring it in, if it's even still loaded. I found that that one MAY be okay for conversion to 8X57mm S, if one is careful about hotter ammo. I think it did have the "S" bore, .323". The spool magazine limits what conversions are feasible.

Let us know what you learn. This could be an interesting project! I fully understand your desire for more easily available ammo. You could also ask if .260 Remington might work (as a conversion), but that ammo is also not a major success, unless I just don't see much of it. I think 6.5mm Swede is your best candidate. Frankly, I'd leave it alone (other than the stock refinish) and just pay through the nose for the right ammo and not shoot it a lot. Or, reload, as Gatorbaiter suggested.

T-Star

[2152hq]

I would guess the costs involved in any conversion of the 1903 to another cartridge, even if you keep it in 6.5 caliber would far out pace just reloading the 6.5M/S.
Re-machining each separate case form on the rotor is a challange and there is some action/rail work for a larger diameter case to feed properly.
Case /cartridge length is critical and cannot be extended past what the rotory mag will allow.
That may limit proper bullet sellection should a longer case than the original be chosen in a conversion.

Though the 6.5M/S die sets can be pricey,,they can be found for less than retail on the auction sites.
100 new cases will last a long time if you neck size after the first loading and keep loads reasonable.

Plus an unaltered 1903M/S is an easy re-sell if it ever comes to that. Any conversion is a tire kicker no matter how well done and in what caliber. The buyer will want it for less than the original.

I shoot the 6.5M/S (1903 M/S carbine) and the 6.5x53R in a Steyr sporter. I load both with the same set of dies and make the latter out of 303 brass & 30-40Krag.

6.5M/S can actually be made from 220 Swift quite easily if you get stuck for branded stuff, but there are quite a few sources around now unlike some years back.

6.5 Italian brass is the right size (base dia) but short over all,,51mm vs 54mm.
If you can fireform it w/o haveing a headspace problem while doing so, you'll have a usable but short necked M/S case.

..and you can always make it from 303Brit & 30-40 Krag with alot of work including turning off the rim and cutting an extractor groove besides the forming & trim operation.
303B have needed inside neck reaming in my experience but 30-40Krag has not. But I've only ever used Remington 30-40 brass and HXP (Greek Milsurp) 303 for the operation so others may give different results.
The HXP needed a bit of the base OD trimmed also where the 30-40 didn't. Again, different brass mfg may vary the results.

Most 1903 M/S and Steyr military rifles in that caliber (rimless or rimmed) seem to be of .265/.268 groove dia. from what I've seen. My 1903M/S is .266groove dia,,my Steyr sporter built on a Romanian 1893 barreled action is .268 dia.
I use standard Hornady 160gr rnsp most of the time. They are .264dia and give excellent results.
I have a large supply of pulled milsurp 6.5 Italian 160gr bullets also. They measure at .268 but give excellent results also.
The deep rifling helps with the slightly undesized bullets I think.

Many commercial M/S rifles and carbines have excessive headspace also,,but reloading practices can negate the issue.

6.5M/S paper ballistics aren't all that impressive, but field results especially with the 160gr bullet it was designed for are.
The M/S feeds the round nose bullet flawlessly.

[Kwizard]

Hugh, Thanks for your input. I live in the middle of the Waxahachie, Corsicana, and Hillsboro triangle. Your offer is appreciated, and I may well take you up on it. At this time I only reload shotshells. I would have to purchase a complete set-up to load for the MS.

T-Star, Your right it is Swedish; which is what I meant. Brain hiccup I guess. I was correcting it when you were posting a reply. I don't really want to make a conversion, and it would only be a last resort, one that I would not be keen on having done. I'm looking at the specs on the Carcano, and it and the MS are nearly identical. The Car. is about one m/m shorter overall; with half that being the neck length. However; what I am reading tells me to stay with the 156gr, or 160gr round nose for accuracy, function, and killing power. The 6.5-08(260 Rem.) would be a stretch.

2152hq, I'm sure you're right about the cost. I wouldn't much look forward to that option.

I've been doing some searching and am finding single boxes or part boxes in quit a few places for $25 to $30 shipped. I'm going to buy as many as I can find.

[Raider]

Larry, I own an early 1903MS and know how expensive factory ammo is. I bit the bullet and bought a couple of boxes of RWS factory ammo along with a set of RCBS dies. Reloading the empty cases is much cheaper and the bullets are readily available in a couple of different weights. By the time you buy the case forming dies, trim dies and all of the other stuff I think you will find that factory ammo is cheaper in the long run. Another factor is that unless you are experienced in the procedure, shell conversions can be a bit tricky/hazardous. I myself wouldn't take the chance of damaging myself or my prize carbine to save a few bucks.

Good luck.

Charlie

[Kwizard]

Thanks guys for all your input.

Hugh, I forgot to mention that your reload results are fantastic. I will be happy if I get a one inch group at a 100 yards.

2152hq, Your added info is good to know. It may come in very useful in the future. How can I measure the headspace?

Charlie, I definitely do not want to put myself, bystanders or my carbine in any danger. I will do a lot of research, and tread very lightly.

[moosedog]

Thats a beautiful rifle and one to be proud of for sure.
I used to hunt with a fellow who had one in 270. I always admired them.
Congradulations sir.

[KurtC]

Just a few quick notes...

The original 1903, 1905, 1908 and 1910 are believed to have been produced until 1923. These will have the sequence number/year on the underside.

In 1924 the High Velocity model was introduced. Numerous changes, including chamberings. Only the 6.5x54 was kept from the originals. Just 2-digit years codes from here on.

1938-45 will read Made In Germany, due to the occupation. Production was limited, mostly special orders for German officers.

Production was resumed in 1950. Year models for US importation, NO and GK models for Europe. The 1956/MC started the Weatherby style cheekpiece. Final versions were the MCA for standard cartridges and Magnum for the 458 Win, etc.

Up thru the model 1950, single trigger models could not be converted to DST. After 1952, all models had the bow triggerguard and triggers could be swapped out.

I've owned several dozen over the years, but the only one I have now is a Model 1950 full stock rifle in 9.3x62, with Antinit steel barrel. Near mint condition.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by MOONDAWG

Watching "Ramar of the Jungle" on Saturday mornings is where I fell in love with those full stocked beauties!

I recall that series with Jon (not John) Hall and Ray Montgomery. I think Hall's character was Dr. Tom Reynolds.

I bought a DVD of several of the episodes, but the film quality is not good and I was unable to see for sure whether the rifle is a true Mannlicher or a lookalike stutzen- stocked Mauser. The placement of the bolt handle being so far forward on the M-S would be the best way to tell.

Being a fan of that show and some books by hunters and explorers who used Mannlichers caused me to assemble a plastic replica of the classic carbine. I guess it was about a foot long when assembled. I haven't seen those gun model kits in years. They're probably not PC now!

Later, I owned an authentic 8X56mm M-S. The workmanship on it was fantastic. Most modern rifles aren't very close in the fine details.

For those who didn't see that old TV show, "Ramar" was pronounced as "Rahma." You probably couldn't make a show like it today, due to racial stereotypes once common in "jungle" adventure movies and TV shows. The latest attempt to make a Sheena series was miserable because it had to be so PC. I loved that old series as a child!

Does anyone recall a show named the "77th Bengal Lancers"? That's where I first saw Webley revolvers, I think.

[Kwizard]

Howdy Ya'll,
Since we're talking MS's in this listing; I have a WTB. Anyone know where I might find a magazine charger(stripper clip) for this carbine? I only need one; but would take more if available.
Regards from Texas,
Larry

note to the Mod.: if I'm out of line here; feel free to delete or move to appropriate forum.

[Raider]

The MS that I know have a rotary magazine that must be loaded with cartridges one by one. If it can be loaded with a stripper clip, I would love to see a photo and would accept correction gracefully.

Charlie

[Texas Star]

Raider-

Someone may be confusing the Dutch or Romanian Mannlicher military rifles with the M-S. It is Otto Schoenauer's rotary magazine that distinguishes the M-S. I think only Greece ever used this action for military rifles.

Sporting rifles have been built by custom makers on all of these actions. Even some famous London houses built
".256 Mannlicher" rifles on Dutch actions, mostly before WW I. Taylor makes it clear in, African Rifles and Cartridges that the rimmed 6.5 ammo and their rifles are not the same as the .256 (6.5mm) M-S.

I think the other Mannlicher actions may require stripper clips. Finding any might not be easy.

[KurtC]

M-S sporting rifles made on pre-war actions (up thru 1950) have a stripper clip slot and charging hump on top of the receiver, just like a military 98 Mauser. I have never seen an M-S manufactured stripper clip, and have always just used standard clips for the Mauser.

[Kwizard]

Originally Posted by KurtC

M-S sporting rifles made on pre-war actions (up thru 1950) have a stripper clip slot and charging hump on top of the receiver, just like a military 98 Mauser. I have never seen an M-S manufactured stripper clip, and have always just used standard clips for the Mauser.

Kurt,
You are right about the M-S's ability to accept stripper clips. I did not know that the Mauser clips would work. That's a good piece of info.
Thanks,
Larry

[KurtC]

It's been a few years since I had one, but I seem to recall that .30-06 models might use 1903 Springfield clips. The other thing I am not sure of is whether or not the empty clip will pop out when the bolt is pushed forward, as on a Mauser 98. You might have to pluck the empty clip out by hand before pushing the bolt forward. I really can't remember.

[Raider]

Well I'll be darned! Thanks for the new info.

Charlie

[2152hq]

My 1908 and both 1910's won't hold any stripper clip I have in place in the rifle. The receiver cut is too wide for them by quite a bit.
Mine are probably mostly '03 Springfield clips I think along with some other unkn types thrown in the misc box '0 clips.

Perhaps they'd work in the 1903MS, but I'll have to dig it out to see.
Maybe the smaller case head of the 6.5 will give problems in the clip.

No matter,,doesn't seem right to load a beautiful sporter like these with stripper clips for some reason!

But yes they do have the receiver machined for them on the 1903, 05, 08 & 10 models.
I don't know about the others as I've never owned one but I'd guess the 1924 is too..

The Dutch M95 and Romanian M93 Mannlicher (Steyr built) rifles in 6.5x53R require an 'enbloc' type clip to load and fire.
The same type as is used in the German 88 Commission Rifle & 91 Italian rifle which are also Mannlicher variants.
The Dutch & Romanian rifles use the same 5 round clip,,the Italian & German 88 both use their own particular 5 round clip.

Like the M1 rifle,,the loaded clip is inserted from the top and locks into the rifles magazine.
The rounds are stripped out of the clip as the follower rides upwards inbetween the sides of the clip. After the last round is chambered, the empty clip falls free from the bottom of the magazine.

Some sporters were made with a spring loaded cover or door over the bottom of the mag to save the empty clip from falling to the ground.

The 6.5x53R (6.5 Dutch,,256 Mannlicher) is everything the 6.5M/S (256 Mannlicher Schoenauer) cartridge is with the addition of a rim. Same case, same bullet, same loading data.
The '256 Mannlicher' name has been used interchangably and with confusion over the years by many makers, writers and retailers around the world.

[Dash9]

Originally Posted by Texas Star

Does anyone else recall that you could once buy plastic models of the M-S carbine? You assembled them like a model airplane, and the result was about a foot long. I built one, but I think my mother threw it out while I was in the Air Force.

T-Star

Yes. I built one myself. Don't know what happened to it.

[BAM-BAM]

And all I got is this lousy CZ!!!!!!


just kidding

Lucky man and nice ......... OK...... very very nice rifle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[triaxle]

When I was 21 I had 2 of these one was a MCA model carbine 243 and the later a styer 30-06 . I sold them long ago the oldest I traded for a 4 in Smith model 57 in 41 mag and the guy gave me 200 cash .

[Kwizard]

The little plastic models show up on eBay on occasion, and they almost always have something broken off, and lost.
I have found a quantity of "training" rounds on stripper clips. If anyone is in need of one let me know.

[2152hq]

Here's a Romanian M(18)93 made into a nice sporting carbine with a full length stock. The Original bbl was used and cut down. A short quarter rib filed and fitted for the 2 leaf rear sight. Still in 6.5x53R.
I reload that for this and a Portugese '96 Navy short rifle.

The original military 2 stage trigger removed and a DST mechanism fitted along with a trip sear. The trigger guard was cut and then fitted with a separate piece that hooks and engages the remaining original front portion to form the shotgun style guard.
A trim Euro walnut stock w/a horn butt plate . Sling swivels, small cheek piece,, Some engraving on the sides of the magazine and the trigger guard,,nice rust blue,,everything it needs,,nothing it doesn't as far as I'm concerned.

This one came home with a returning GI after WW2. I bought it from a dealer who had bought the estates guns and had this and a couple others left. It was for sale at a gun show with the other guns. It went unwanted. I traded a Western Arms 12ga SxS I had just bought 1 aisle over for $100 plus $25 for the rifle. With it came 2 of the enbloc clips and one lonely round of WW1 era dated Dutch military ammo. Still have that round.
Carbine shoots very nicely. I use the same loads as I do for my 1903 M/S's and keep them on the mild side as I do with all my reloading efforts.
Sorry the pics aren't that good,








I've also added a British sporter built on a surplus M1903 Greek M/S military rifle. George Gibbs, Bristol in 256 Gibbs Magnum caliber.
The typical British sporter does not have the full length stock (though they did make a few). Mine is the short forend style w/long bbl (26") using the orig Military bbl. Express sights and Aldis Bros 'scope in detachable pincer style mts. The scope most likely a surplus item from WW1 as they were used as sniper scopes by the Commonwealth in WW1
Quite a neat set up, well used but perfect bore and shoots very accurately. Took some time to figure out making 256 Gibbs Magnum brass but I got there!

The British gun makers made quite a lot of sporting rifles on the surplus Greek and commercial Steyr M/S as well as the earlier style Steyr straight line feed rifles as above.

[fyimo]

Beautiful classic Rifle that has great lines and great looks'

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by 2152hq

Here's a Romanian M(18)93 made into a nice sporting carbine with a full length stock. The Original bbl was used and cut down. A short quarter rib filed and fitted for the 2 leaf rear sight. Still in 6.5x53R.
I reload that for this and a Portugese '96 Navy short rifle.

The original military 2 stage trigger removed and a DST mechanism fitted along with a trip sear. The trigger guard was cut and then fitted with a separate piece that hooks and engages the remaining original front portion to form the shotgun style guard.
A trim Euro walnut stock w/a horn butt plate . Sling swivels, small cheek piece,, Some engraving on the sides of the magazine and the trigger guard,,nice rust blue,,everything it needs,,nothing it doesn't as far as I'm concerned.

This one came home with a returning GI after WW2. I bought it from a dealer who had bought the estates guns and had this and a couple others left. It was for sale at a gun show with the other guns. It went unwanted. I traded a Western Arms 12ga SxS I had just bought 1 aisle over for $100 plus $25 for the rifle. With it came 2 of the enbloc clips and one lonely round of WW1 era dated Dutch military ammo. Still have that round.
Carbine shoots very nicely. I use the same loads as I do for my 1903 M/S's and keep them on the mild side as I do with all my reloading efforts.
Sorry the pics aren't that good,








I've also added a British sporter built on a surplus M1903 Greek M/S military rifle. George Gibbs, Bristol in 256 Gibbs Magnum caliber.
The typical British sporter does not have the full length stock (though they did make a few). Mine is the short forend style w/long bbl (26") using the orig Military bbl. Express sights and Aldis Bros 'scope in detachable pincer style mts. The scope most likely a surplus item from WW1 as they were used as sniper scopes by the Commonwealth in WW1
Quite a neat set up, well used but perfect bore and shoots very accurately. Took some time to figure out making 256 Gibbs Magnum brass but I got there!

The British gun makers made quite a lot of sporting rifles on the surplus Greek and commercial Steyr M/S as well as the earlier style Steyr straight line feed rifles as above.

Who built this rifle? I'm surprised that anyone today would pay to make a sporter on that action, for that ctg. But pleased, and intrigued. Thanks for the fine pics.

[2152hq]

There's no makers name on the carbine. I was surprised at that from the first time I held it.
I expected to see something engraved on the top of the bbl, even if just an unkn maker/retailer and a city.
But nothing there and no signs of it ever having been refinished/removed.
The Romanian Crest is still on the recv'r ring. All the ser#'s match and the bbl has the original proof mark.

The action is no different than the Dutch 95 other than the Dutch95 has a bolt guide rib on the bolt body ahead of the bolt handle.
The caliber is the Military caliber it was mfg in originally. It's the rimmed version of the 6.5 Mannlicher Schoenaur.
Same case, same loads, same results.

Plenty of these and the Dutch95 actions were built into beautiful sporters by Brit gun makers. Often keeping the orig caliber, but refering to it as the 256 Dutch, 256 Mannlicher or 256 Mannlicher Rimmed (or Flanged).
The action easily converts to handle 303Brit as the case can be made from that brass (that's how I make them), and could be bbl'd in any of the common rimmed Mauser rifle rounds.
A Brit built sporter in 375 H&H Express (not Magnum) is considered quite a prize by folks who covet these Mannlichers.
The Dutch action was favored with it's bolt guide rib, but the Romanian was also used for sporters.