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07-01-2010, 08:16 PM
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Renamed Mannlicher-Schoenauer thread, with new pics
EDITED TO NOTE: New pics added in post 28 below.
= = = = = = = = = =
This week I fulfilled a dream that first crossed my mind when I was 9 or 10 years old. I brought home a Model 1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine.
I can't remember the very first time I heard of this model. I remember being excited when I got a two-inch blue plastic replica of one out of a box of Wheaties (or whatever) in the mid-1950s, so I had to have known about it before then. I would recognize it in the movies I saw at Saturday matinees before 1960. I think George Montgomery had one in Watusi, and Stewart Granger may have had one in Harry Black. The gun was clearly more memorable than the films.
I have been on a fantasy safari in the East Africa of a hundred years ago for the last couple of days. I stumbled across Theodore Roosevelt at one point; he admired my gun, and I said nice things about his 1895 Winchester. I am finding it really tough to get back to the here and now when somebody talks to me or the phone rings.
Chambers the 6.5 mm x 54 round; characteristic Mannlicher butter-knife bolt handle and full-length stock; 17.75" barrel (omitting the chamber; almost 20" from muzzle to bolt face); fixed primary leaf iron sight with flip-up 300 meter leaf behind it; removable five-shot rotary magazine; double (set) trigger with screw adjustment to fine-tune release tension; horn grip cap and butt plate; the steel, wood and scope are in extremely nice condition, with only a few dings in the wood and minimal area thinning of the blue observed; quick-detachable scope mount with Kahles Mignon 2.5X scope (first manufactured 1908 and continued, I believe, through the 1930s); the gun has a serial number near 21000; and the scope mount is numbered to the gun.
The bore seems to be in good shape. There is a lot of congealed oil in there, as there is in the action. I will be working slowly in the next few days to clean this rifle up and get it properly lubricated.
I still don't know how old the rifle is. I suspect from the serial number that it might be late 1930s vintage, but I need to do more research on that. It could conceivably be postwar production, in which case the scope might be a transfer from another gun. There are sometimes date codes on the underside of the barrel and receiver in Mannlichers, but I don't have the right screwdrivers to disassemble this gun safely. I'll report back when I find out for sure.
This wasn't cheap, and I don't regret that the price I paid probably greatly exceeds a reasonable market value for the gun. There were four or five aggressive bidders for this one, but I think the others were just shopping for a nice rifle. I was spending into a childhood dream that I wanted to bring into reality.
I haven't been as happy in years as I am just sitting in a chair holding this thing. Elation!
(That's an auction house photo up there. If people want to see more pictures, I can take some detail shots and post them.)
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Last edited by DCWilson; 07-04-2010 at 07:18 PM.
Reason: Change thread title.
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07-01-2010, 08:27 PM
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Congrats on a very interesting gun. I like the wrist on it. The gun seems to be dropped at the comb for the iron sights. How does the cheek weld feel with the scope?
I'd love to see the action out of the gun and how the set triggers were set up on that one....!!!
Again, very interesting gun....
Steve
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07-01-2010, 08:29 PM
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Now that would make a Bishop kick out a stained glass window. Beautiful lines.
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07-01-2010, 08:38 PM
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Hi:
I think George Montgomery used a SMLE Mk III with a Colt SAA in "Watusi".
In the early 1950s Jon Hall used one in TVs "Ramar of the Jungle".
Jimmy
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07-01-2010, 08:39 PM
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CLASSIC styling.
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07-01-2010, 08:41 PM
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Back around '53 or '54 John Hall carried one in the "Ramar of the Jungle" TV series. Wish I could find a better picture for you.
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07-01-2010, 09:27 PM
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Jimmy and ED,
I think Ramar's Mannlicher is a beefier model. In other publicity stills it seems to have more wood in the forestock. But I agree it shows the classic Mannlicher styling.
After looking at publicity photos, I have to acknowledge that George Montgomery's Watusi gun has more of England than Austria in it. I wonder what I am remembering?
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07-01-2010, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj
Hi:
I think George Montgomery used a SMLE Mk III with a Colt SAA in "Watusi".
In the early 1950s Jon Hall used one in TVs "Ramar of the Jungle".
Jimmy
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You beat me to it, but you are right on. I used to love Ramar on Saturday afternoons, and saw, "Watutsi", too. Montgomery's SMLE had a blonde stock and he had the bayonet until near the end of the film. Colt SAA, I think with 4.75-inch bbl.
I used to have an 8x56mm like this one, but eventually sold it, as ammo was so scarce. Western used to load both that and the 6.5mm, but it's been a LONG time ago. I was able to find a limited supply of DWM ammo imported by Speer in the 1960's, and that was it.
I do love the Mannlicher-Schoenauer.
BTW, Dr. Roy Chapman Andrews used these as well as .250 Savage rifles on his famous expeditions. And Robert Ruark mentioned them in his famous novel, "Something of Value." His white hunter protagonist had one. Ruark almost certainly saw them in use in Kenya in the 1950's.
Nice little rifles!
T-Star
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07-01-2010, 11:41 PM
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Nothing but class! According to the movie "The Longest Day", Lord Lovat carried a 1903 M-S when he landed at Sword Beach on D-Day. There is some disagreement about this, but there's no doubt he owned at least one M-S and he did have a preference for sporting rifles on raids. Congratulations on an excellent purchase.
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07-02-2010, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizamo
Congrats on a very interesting gun. I like the wrist on it. The gun seems to be dropped at the comb for the iron sights. How does the cheek weld feel with the scope?
I'd love to see the action out of the gun and how the set triggers were set up on that one....!!!
Again, very interesting gun....
Steve
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As you can imagine, cheek contact is not optimal when sighting through the scope. Anyone planning scope work might want to bring along a beanbag or folded towel to drape over the stock. Cheek position is fine for iron-sight work, and the tunnel through the front scope base makes nearby targets easy to grab if one should pop up unexpectedly only a few dozen yards away. I saw a modified Mannlicher stock somewhere on the internet that had a high-low cheekpiece -- invisible when down, seemingly rock solid when two inches higher.
I'll post a couple more photos as time goes by. I got the goo cleaned out of the bolt, receiver and rotary magazine. Looked like old 30W engine oil.
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07-02-2010, 11:45 AM
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Beautiful gun. There is an M-S collectors group for those who are interested:
Home
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07-02-2010, 04:33 PM
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For what it's worth, Steyr quit making these in 1971. Manufacturing costs had gotten too high, and the receiver doesn't lend itself well to scope mounting. Newer designs based on Mauser patents and escalating machining and handwork costs killed it off.
The replacement Steyr rifle is good, but not exceptonal as modern rifles go. They don't polish off the hammer forging marks from the barrel, and it has a swirled appearance under the blue finish. I'm sure they thought it was fashionable, but I haven't gotten used to it.
Mr. Wilson, please do favor us with additional photos, as you are able to take them. If you can get some sharp ones of the wood, that'd be nice. My M-S had some really nice wood in the stock. Buffing it with my hand and a soft cloth really brought out the beauty.
I have found it very hard to see good pics of this rifle on the Net. The one that you posted is the best yet! Thanks for sharing your joy in owning this fine little carbine.
T-Star
Last edited by Texas Star; 07-02-2010 at 04:35 PM.
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07-02-2010, 04:36 PM
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One of those appears in the Hemingway short story, "The Short, Happy Life of Francis Macomber."
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07-02-2010, 04:39 PM
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They are very beautiful rifles, and yours is a fine example.
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07-02-2010, 09:00 PM
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When I read this post I couldn't help but get my 2 Mannlicher's out of the safe and fondle them dreaming of this years hunting season.
I have a 1908, 8x56ms, with a Zeiss 4 power scope and claw mounts, and a 1950 made in 1952, 257 roberts, with a Jaeger mount and a Zeiss Diavari-C West German Scope. Both are carbines, both have double set triggers and both are very accurate. I took a buck with the 1908 hunting season before last at about 97 yards, according to my range finder, and the old 8x56ms ammo worked perfectly. I just picked up the 1950 at the Tulsa show in April and I'm looking forward to hunting with it this year.
Boyd
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07-02-2010, 10:50 PM
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Nice looking Mannlicher Schoenauer..
I have a 1903, 1908 and 2 1910's. One of the 1910 models is a rifle with a full length raised rib barrel. The stock was most likely a full length originally judging from the wear along the side of the barrel. But it's a bring back from WW2 and was probably cut to make the trip back.
It's reproofed in Germany in 1913 and has H. Barrella's(sp?) name on the barrel, a well known gunsmith and dealer in Germany. Claw mounts are missing so it needs some work. But these are beautiful rifles and certainly deserve any attention they should need.
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07-02-2010, 11:00 PM
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Congrats, David. She's a true beauty!
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07-02-2010, 11:06 PM
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I've had the pleasure of shooting a 6.5X54 and it was a soft shooting comfortable big game rifle.
My neighbor, who has since passed away, hunted deer, elk and moose with his M-S 6.5X54 and that long pencil like bullet was a great killer.
Good decisive, humane kills on game from that grand old round.
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07-03-2010, 10:04 AM
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That is a classic hunting rifle. I've also wanted on since I was just old enough to hunt. You did good!!!
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07-03-2010, 10:32 AM
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Fantastic rifle. I am looking forward to seeing more pictures. BTW don't get lost on your safari.......
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07-03-2010, 10:59 AM
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That rifle is a class act.
The British commander played by Peter Lawford in the 1962 film about D-Day called "The Longest Day" also went ashore carrying a Mannlicher.
BTW- Mannlicher is my wife's favorite gun related word.
I have a BRNO made Mannlicher wannabe.
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07-03-2010, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaxonPig
That rifle is a class act.
The British commander played by Peter Lawford in the 1962 film about D-Day called "The Longest Day" also went ashore carrying a Mannlicher.
BTW- Mannlicher is my wife's favorite gun related word.
I have a BRNO made Mannlicher wannabe.
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Dr. Pig-
That Brno feels heavier and slabbier to me than the Austrian equivalent. But they are very well made rifles. The one that I handled was a ZG-47, and my comments apply only to that version. Later ones may balance better.
The point about the guy played by Peter Lawford has already been mentioned, but I'll add that the real guy was a Scot, Lord Lovat. His commando unit was the Lovat Scouts. Don't know if he really carried a M-S, but it may well be true, as those were popular for stag shooting in Scotland. I'm guessing that he had access to full-jacketed ammo, as per the Hague Accords. Or, maybe he knew about Hitler's order to execute special operations people and figured it wouldn;t matter if he had hunting ammo. Actually, that FMJ stuff was hunting ammo..for elephants and the like!
The generic name for these full stocks in Europe is Stutzen. They are only called Mannlicher here, because most seen in the US have been the M-S brand.
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07-03-2010, 05:47 PM
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Does anyone else recall that you could once buy plastic models of the M-S carbine? You assembled them like a model airplane, and the result was about a foot long. I built one, but I think my mother threw it out while I was in the Air Force.
I wish that I had it to show to my grandchildren. I did manage to impress my teen GD when I posted a stock with very nice wood on a non-gun forum. And one of a H&H shotgun's engraving. Her dad and his family are non-gun people, no vets among them, and he probably wasn't even allowed a water pistol as a kid.
I'm just hoping that my daughter will arrange for the teens to go to the range with me soon and learn about guns. I think all they need is a little positive exposure and the chance to fire some.
T-Star
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07-03-2010, 05:56 PM
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I love those Mannlicher stocked rifles. They conjur up visions of a charging cape buffalo and a do or die spirit that that brought some of us into the shooting fraternity so many years ago. I too, have a Mannlicher stocked Fredrich Hyme SR-20 grade rifle in 30-06. It is truely a piece of art. Scoped with a Zeiss 2x10x56mm glass. It has done its duty on many hunts.
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07-03-2010, 05:57 PM
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David, congrats!! That's a true classic. I hope you will take it hunting...........a rifle like that deserves to be used for what it was intended.
Don
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07-03-2010, 06:46 PM
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Your rifle is so graceful, yet functional looking and quite beautiful. Does anyone know what kind of take-down rifle Clint Eastwood used in the movie "Joe Kidd", it seems like it had a butter knife bolt?
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07-03-2010, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer17
Your rifle is so graceful, yet functional looking and quite beautiful. Does anyone know what kind of take-down rifle Clint Eastwood used in the movie "Joe Kidd", it seems like it had a butter knife bolt?
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07-03-2010, 07:47 PM
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Some closer photos
Here are some detail photos of parts of the rifle that started this thread. I’ll let the catalog photo in the first post suffice for the big picture, because I don’t have a photo bay big enough to recapture the whole gun. Please pardon the dust and fibers; no matter how much I wipe the subject and hit it with compressed air, there’s always something.
A couple of wood details to show both the grain and the checkering.
Closer to the receiver, bolt and scope.
I think this is called a claw mount, but I’m not sure of the terminology. I have seen photos of several things called claw mounts, and not all of them look alike. To release the scope, pinch the knurled arms and lift.
The rear scope post simply slides under a fixed screw at the back of the receiver. When the front support is locked, the back can’t move.
When the post is down, the tunnel you can see in the base allows use of the iron sights. The fixed leaf iron sight is backed up by a flip-up taller sight labeled “300” -- meters, I presume.
The telescopic sight has a single reticule adjustment for distance: presumably 100, 200 or 300 meters.
Both the rear iron sight and the latch block for the scope are drift-adjustable. You can see that they have both been pushed quite a bit to the right and indexed with a chisel mark. A lateral adjustment of 1/16" over a 16" sight radius to align point of impact and point of aim sounds like a lot to me. I think that's equivalent to a meter displacement at 300 meters, compared to sights physically centered on their blocks.
The front sight is centered on its block. Nice tapered brass bead.
The magazine is removable, but not with any great convenience. The bottom plate rotates to slide two small ridges out of grooves at the bottom of the downward-extending walls of the receiver. But you need to push through the front hole in the plate with a small blunt object (why does a jacketed round come to mind?) to disengage a stop. Then with your third hand you can rotate the base and lift out the magazine. You don't remove the magazine assembly often; the rifle loads through the top with the bolt open.
The magazine is a five-shot rotary magazine.
The central piece rotates as additional rounds are inserted.
when it's time to fire, you can either pull the front trigger through five or six pounds of resistance to release the striker, or you can pull the back trigger (again, about five pounds) to set the front trigger. In that scenario, the front trigger will then go off with about two to eight ounces of pull, depending on how you have turned the adjustment screw.
The scope has duplex cross hairs: wide until close to the center, then very fine hairs to settle on the target. Sorry for the blur, but trust me; the fine hairs are there.
The more I look at and handle this rifle the more I love it.
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Last edited by DCWilson; 07-10-2010 at 09:39 AM.
Reason: Typo; add a photo I left out; change "left" to "right" (duh!)
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07-03-2010, 07:52 PM
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Sounds good brother; I'm happy for you.
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07-03-2010, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star
Does anyone else recall that you could once buy plastic models of the M-S carbine? You assembled them like a model airplane, and the result was about a foot long. I built one, but I think my mother threw it out while I was in the Air Force.
I wish that I had it to show to my grandchildren. I did manage to impress my teen GD when I posted a stock with very nice wood on a non-gun forum. And one of a H&H shotgun's engraving. Her dad and his family are non-gun people, no vets among them, and he probably wasn't even allowed a water pistol as a kid.
I'm just hoping that my daughter will arrange for the teens to go to the range with me soon and learn about guns. I think all they need is a little positive exposure and the chance to fire some.
T-Star
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I remember that particular model. I built a lot of plastic gun models back in the 1950s, and that was one of my favorites, though I preferred the full scale handgun models. This one was quarter scale, as I recall. That one may have come along about the end of my plastic model phase. I seem to remember it as 1957, 1958. I was on the point of getting serious about saving money so I could maybe buy a real gun some day.
I have talked about guns with my grandsons, but there is only passing interest there in shooting sports. They went through an airsoft phase before moving on to the time-intensive high school sports like water polo. My granddaughter may have potential as a shooter, but between her schedule and my few free moments, it's tough to take it further than a conversation. We'll see.
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07-03-2010, 08:11 PM
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An awesome rifle, David. You are in good company- Earnest Hemingway liked them, too, along with Griffin & Howe Springfields. There's some nice bolt manipulation of one in the beginning of "Public Enemies". Nothing in life is better than acquiring something you always wanted-and it's exactly what you'd hoped for. You did well.
Bob
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07-03-2010, 08:26 PM
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Beautiful rifle!
The scope mounts are not what most people would call 'claw mounts' but I'd have to say they are a version of them. Most European scope mounts from that era are a QD system of some sorts. The scope was often carried separate from the rifle.
The style of mounts on your rifle is one that Steyr offered from the factory if you ordered your gun fitted for a scope.
The small checkered steel oblong button on the receiver in the loading port is for unloading the rifle.
Open the bolt (ejecting the chambered round), then pressing that small button (cartridge stop release) will release the remaining rounds from the magazine in one quick motion. If you hold the rifle slightly to the side or upsidedown with your hand cupped over the top of the magazine and press,,the rounds zip nicely into your hand in one cluster.
Check the trap butt plate. Inside is room for a couple of rounds of ammo and a larger cavity that housed a 3 piece steel cleaning/clearing rod. The rod was standard equiptment but is often missing on these rifles now. I've seen a few late mfg that were not made to take the cleaning rod at all.
The rotor in the magazine is made to be easily removed from the floor plate/case assembly for cleaning,,though yours looks like it's been little used and well cared for.
It just lifts straight up out of it's seats. There is a small detent under spring pressure that keeps it from falling free (the small half round cut on the sides of the front seat in the pic) so it takes a bit to pull it out.
The rotor & it's spring will NOT unwind when pulled out(!),,they are a captive unit. It's not ment to be taken apart any further than that except in a shop w/proper tools.
It will remain in it's correct indexed position out of it's seats, can be rotated and lubed/cleaned as needed.
Some have old gummed up oil in them from never haveing been taken apart. Reassemble by placeing back in the seats and snap downward into position.
The floor plate has no back or front,,it can swivel and lock the magazine in from either end though some rifles lock better on one end than the other.
A bullet nose was the intended tool to disengage the floor plate though a BIC pen works well.
There are most likely proof date code info under the wood on the barrel. Austrian proofs show the sequential number of the gun that went through the particular proof house along with the year IIRC. I think that's how it goes,,could be wrong though.
A great condition 1903 M/S.
Congrats!!,,time to hit the range. (They do best with the 160gr bullets in my experience.)
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07-03-2010, 09:07 PM
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M-S rifles
Hi....I own a model 1908 M-S carbine, originally chambered for the 8x56 M-S, but rechambered for the more-available 8X57 Mauser round. Sports a bolt peep sight, too. Have a partial box of 8X56 ammo which I put on GunBroker, but there were no takers. Great rifle ! BT
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07-04-2010, 12:14 AM
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A beautiful reflection of days when craftsmanship was at its peak.
Very fine and interesting to see the details. Great pictures.
Enjoy your dream
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That is a sweet looking rifle, congrats on your acquisition. Just from your posts and pictures I can tell this rifle is already well loved where it is.
bob
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07-04-2010, 11:32 AM
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About 20 years ago I bought a beautiful Model 1905 in 9x56 MS caliber. I never fired it as ammo was impossible to find. I ended up selling it as forming dies were very expensive ($200 +) and finding the correct diameter and weight 9mm rifle bullets was difficult. It was a 24" barreled takedown rifle, half stock with single trigger. The original 3 pc. cleaning rod was still in the butt trap, and there was also a trap in the PG that held a spare front sight blade. It also had a cool peep sight that folded down into the top grip tang. The quality of the machining was breathtaking.
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07-04-2010, 12:41 PM
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Great looking rifle. I've always wanted one, but now that I may be able to afford one, I don't see any. Seems to always be something else begging for me to buy.
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H Richard
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07-04-2010, 05:02 PM
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Hey, gizamo... !
Since you asked:
This is the trigger assembly at rest. There is no spring tension in the system:
It is possible to fire the rifle by pulling the front trigger only. That requires a few pounds of pressure to get past the trigger system spring, and then the upraised arm you see here frees the striker from the cocked position and the rifle fires. (An ugly thumb just outside the frame is holding the front trigger back against spring tension.)
Bit if you prefer, pulling the rear trigger will compress the spring and restrain it by the small lip connected to the front trigger as you see in this next photo. At this point, all you need to do is pull lightly on the front trigger to release the spring tension built up by the second trigger's action. The spring does its work, the striker is nudged out of its detente, and the rifle fires.
I'm now thinking this is a postwar rifle. There is no clear assembly sequence number:date string (for example, 123:39) stamped on the underside of the barrel as was done before the war. The number 53 is found on several parts, including on the stock in pencil. One internet post I found says that may mean assembly in 1953, but it's also the last two digits of this rifle's serial number. I think those are just short-hand control codes to keep this gun's parts together.
I know production of one M-S model didn't cease when the next one was released. I don't know when the last 1903 came out of the factory. If anyone knows, please tell me.
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David Wilson
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07-04-2010, 05:31 PM
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Like Saxonpig I have a BRNO, but mines 8MM and checkered on top with no place for mounts and it's not drilled. I always loved the M-S like yours, Dave, but this is as close as I'll ever get stylewise. This was my dad's. He bought it from a neighbor for $350 about 12 yearsa ago. I love the high scope set up on your rifle .
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07-04-2010, 06:05 PM
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The barrel proof double headed eagle on the barrel is an indication that the rifle was made(proofed) very late in production.
The NPv is Nitro Proof/Vienna proof house.
The double headed eagle stamp along with it is their preliminary black powder rifle barrel proof used for just a few years in the very late 1930's till 1940. I'd guess no longer than 1937/8 till 1940.
That may account for the lack of a sequential proof series date code on the rifle. At that point, sporting arms were taking a back seat to military arms production and proofing.
I think Vienna Proof House had a small #2 inside the eagle figure,,Ferlach proof house used a #1..? Maybe I have those mixed up!
Did Steyr even mfg the 1903 Model after WW2?
I know some were made well into WW2 when the Germans controlled the facility for military arms production. Those sporters were given to Nazi officials and the like. They're usually marked 'kal.6.5' on the barrel and were of lesser quality that the prewar sporters. Nice rifles none the less.
Confusing time in early post war manufacturing.. The next generation of Steyrs came out in the early 50's with their swept back bolts and M/C stocks. Stoeger was the US importer/dealer I believe. I never could get interested in those.
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07-04-2010, 06:50 PM
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2152hq, thanks for the continuing education. I knew that was the Vienna mark, and I recognized the double eagle. I just didn't know that the one began to be applied so late in this model's production.
I saw a photo of a post-Anschluss M-S whose top stamping said "Made in Germany" rather than "Made in Austria"! That may have been produced later in the war, but I suppose it could have happened as early as late 1938 or in the course of 1939. Mine says "Made in Austria," but I think the English language stamping started in the early '30s or even '20s. I haven't seen enough to know.
I should have said that on the underside of the barrel are proof marks +1 and 1, as well as 3B with a punch mark following, and C6.7; I take it this last is an alternative description for the 6.5 x 54 round that emphasizes the groove-to-groove dimension of the bore, rather than land-to-land. Enlarged in a photo, what I thought was 3B-dot looks more like 36-dot.
There was also a small ornate stamp that looks like a script E over V, with branches on the top of the V like antlers. [EDITED TO ADD; I just found out this is another "Vienna" proof designation.] I tried to get a photo:
In addition, the stamp "33." appears under the receiver about an inch away.
I have resisted thinking that the 33 or 36 could be a year stamp for a couple of reasons, the obvious inconsistency being one. There is a 1934 M-S with a serial number just over 15000. I don't know whether the Austrians ever numbered production out of order, or made more than a couple of thousand rifles a year, but it just seemed to me that this gun, at 20953, had to be either very late '30s production or, assuming postwar resumption of production on this model even happened, late 1940s or very early 1950s. I have been unable to determine when the M1903 went out of production for good. I don't know what the highest serial number on a 1903 is.
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Last edited by DCWilson; 07-04-2010 at 07:00 PM.
Reason: Discovery.
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07-04-2010, 06:53 PM
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SP and Wyatt,
Those BRNO rifles are handsome specimens both! I'd be proud to have either one in a collection.
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David Wilson
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07-04-2010, 07:30 PM
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Very nice rifle. You are a lucky guy to find that.
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07-04-2010, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
The barrel proof double headed eagle on the barrel is an indication that the rifle was made(proofed) very late in production.
The NPv is Nitro Proof/Vienna proof house.
The double headed eagle stamp along with it is their preliminary black powder rifle barrel proof used for just a few years in the very late 1930's till 1940. I'd guess no longer than 1937/8 till 1940.
That may account for the lack of a sequential proof series date code on the rifle. At that point, sporting arms were taking a back seat to military arms production and proofing.
I think Vienna Proof House had a small #2 inside the eagle figure,,Ferlach proof house used a #1..? Maybe I have those mixed up!
Did Steyr even mfg the 1903 Model after WW2?
I know some were made well into WW2 when the Germans controlled the facility for military arms production. Those sporters were given to Nazi officials and the like. They're usually marked 'kal.6.5' on the barrel and were of lesser quality that the prewar sporters. Nice rifles none the less.
Confusing time in early post war manufacturing.. The next generation of Steyrs came out in the early 50's with their swept back bolts and M/C stocks. Stoeger was the US importer/dealer I believe. I never could get interested in those.
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The Models 1950 and 1952 had the original type stocks. The MCA, etc. with the raised cheekpiece came a few years later, evidently to compete with Weatherby's styling.
The "Germany" proof mentioned earlier may be due to Austria having been annexed by Hitler in, I think, 1938. It might have been considered part of Germany. I think it was. Otherwise, foreign-made arms sold there would have been German-proofed. Sometimes, S&W guns once sold in Germany are seen here, and they do bear German proof marks.
T-Star
Last edited by Texas Star; 07-04-2010 at 07:45 PM.
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07-10-2010, 12:50 AM
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I was searching for Mannlicher information, saw this post and signed up to the Forum so I could respond.
Beautiful gun and wonderful condition!! I especially like the scope and the mounting, the front mount is simply exquisite. Thanks for all the other nice detailed pictures as well.
Your gun is definitely pre-war because of the style of the star rotor in the magazine and the two release holes. Magazines after the war had a simpler rotor that could accomodate different cartridges and only had one release hole. I can't tell if your buttplate is horn or "composition" but the first horn buttplates appeared around 1910 and the latter ones some time later.
I have always loved the old 6.5 1903s and finally bought one myself a couple of months ago. I suggest you order the following backorder magazines from www.riflemagazine.com as they are among the best sources for the history of Mannlicher rifles and reloading of the 6.5x54:
Rifle Number 121
Handloader Number 108
I hope you plan on reloading as you could realize the best potential by experimenting on your own. Midway USA has 6.5 brass and bullets. I'm currently shooting 40.5 grs of IMR 4350 with the Hornady 160 gr RN .264" bullet and grouping under 1" at 100 yds at 2200 fps. As always approach loads with caution!!
Some pictures below of my rifle which is of earlier vintage than yours (#11405) with the trap door buttplate. It's fitted with an EAW QD mount.
Last edited by vvreddy; 07-10-2010 at 01:27 AM.
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07-10-2010, 02:29 AM
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vvreddy, thank you for taking the time to register in order to comment. I appreciate the back issue references you gave me and will follow your suggestions.
I do plan to reload for this rifle (and several of my revolvers, too) but am not yet set up to do so. Thanks for the definition of the load you are finding so successful. Sounds like a screamer!
The catalog description of my rifle said the butt plate and grip cap were horn; there is some color variation to be seen and I think that assertion is correct. I don't have the rod storage feature on my rifle; I understand that later production 1903s did not.
All in all, I am now leaning towards a late '30s date for my rifle. Thank you very much for your observations.
Your gun is extremely attractive. Thanks too for posting all the photos.
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David Wilson
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07-10-2010, 06:37 AM
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Beautiful rifle, thanks for the pictures. I'm surprised the view through the scope is so clear.
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07-10-2010, 07:57 AM
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I have a Rifle Magazine where, I believe it was Ken Waters, traded for a M-S similair to yours but I think it was later production. He gets into it in hie typical thorough way. I bet it's the one vvreddy mentioned. Waters traded a Win. Model 71 in .500 Alaskan for it.
Also. I have an older Guns & Ammo mag. with an article by Ross Seyreid on the 1903 carbine like yours. It's a fantastic article that I've read ten times where he was offered a job setting up a hunting camp in Alaska and could hunt a little while there. He had time on his hands and since he had to travel light on a small plane he took the short M-L and that's all. Then he gets into the details of it's use and history.
If you're interested n these I can dig them up and e-mail the paged to you sometime.
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07-10-2010, 11:09 PM
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I have wanted one of these since a Thursday night about 25 years ago. Thomas Magnum sighted a "barrowed" Mannlicher in while preparing to assassinate the Russian that tortured him in Vietnam. He did not follow through because the Russian was working a deal to return an American POW. Of course he shot him dead in a later episode with his trusty 1911.
Sorry to hi-jack the thread with musings of my youth....
Oh yeah, did I mention I love the rifle and I desparately want one.
Chubbs
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03-22-2011, 12:03 AM
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Perhaps someone here can help me. I have a very nice Mannlicher Schoenauer Puch Model 50 (I think) in 7x57 Mauser and a second M-S Model 52 (again, I'm not sure about the model) in .308 Winchester. The Model 50 has signed factory engraving, a bolt-mounted aperture sight, single trigger, and a very dark conventional- not full length and no Monte Carlo configuration- stock. The .308 has the factory set trigger.
Here are my questions: first and most important, the 7x57 consistently fails to feed the 4th, next to last round, from the rotary/spool magazine. Once I clear that round it feeds the last round perfectly every time. Has anyone experienced similar malfunctions and if so, what's the fix? Secondly, does anyone still make a quick release scope mount for these rifles? The 7x57 has been scoped and the mount works fine except I can't readily detach it to allow me to use the iron sights. Lastly, I'd really like to swap the triggers and put the set trigger on the 7x57. Obviously I'd have a gunsmith do the work but I'd rather not tie up both rifles if the swap is impossible.
Any help anyone can give- especially if they know a gunsmith in the Chicago area that is familiar with Mannlichers- will be greatly appreciated. TIA.
Bob
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bayonet, brno, carbine, cartridge, colt, commander, commercial, detent, extractor, gunsmith, hornady, lock, military, prewar, remington, saa, savage, scope, springfield, stag, steyr, takedown, tulsa, weatherby, zeiss |
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