I've heard over the years that Buck's sheath knives are a little brittle. I've never noticed that, but I don't try to chop bone or frozen food with mine.

Actually, Buck used to run ads showing their knives cutting bolts. But I think they gave those blades a special grind. And they gently tapped the blade through the bolt. Didn't hammer it hard.

Any blade can fail under enough stress. I know of a Randall Bowie that was used to kill an injured deer that came to life as a hunter approached. He swung his Model 12, slicing off an antler and burying the blade in the brain. Had to have a small chip ground out of the edge.

Have any of you used Buck knives in outdoor or military use enough to form an opinion of their ruggedness in normal use? I know they were quite popular in Vietnam, and a lot easier to find in a hurry than a Randall.

I like the several that I have, but haven't put them to any severe tests. I have chopped off a few small branches with the Model 120, 7.5-inch blade. No problems, but the branches were pretty dry. They made good fire starters. Otherwise, they just cut, and let axes or machetes do the heavy work.

Buck has changed steel and, probably, heat-treating since the early 1960's when I heard those tales of brittleness. In recent years, they've used 420 stainless, not usually the most prestigious of blade steels. But they have Paul Bos oversee their heat-treating, and the final blade depends a lot on that process. Bos is much in demand among custom makers, too.

Overall, would you be pretty comfortable using a Buck No 105 or 119 as a survival knife? It may not be as tough as a Fallkniven equivalent www.fallkniven.com , but I think it would suffice in any sane use.

How would you compare the Buck No. 119 to the Puma Bowie with 6.5-inch blade? The stag handle on the Puma is prettier, if well selected, although some of their handles now aren't too well done. The black phenolic Buck handles are very uniform, and I've never seen a broken one.

T-Star

I own a Buck "zipper", a fixed blade knife with a gut hook. I don't know the model number of the knife but it has the black rubber handle.

It has been used by me to dress many whitetail deer, breast out geese and ducks and clean fish. It stays sharp and is easy to resharpen when needed. I actually don't let my knives get dull as it is much easier to maintain the edge before it gets dull.

My hunting partner has one in the exact same model and he uses his to pound through the pelvic bone of deer when field dressing and it has done so with flying colors, however I don't use mine to cut through bone. Bone saws and axes are made for that kind of use.

Hard to believe that a Randall Model 12 chipped as it's not even possible to get that steel to a Rc where chipping, or hardness if you will, is an issue. Guess anything is possible though if you try hard enough. The Bucks and Puma fall in the same 58ish Rc as the Randall so all should perform well. The Fallkniven knives have a great reputation in the cutlery world but I don't know much about them as they are Japanese made and thus don't interest me.

Were I looking for this kind of knife, and wanted a production product, I'd buy a BRKT Bravo-1. First class steel and quality with the convex grind that is all the rage these days. Made in America to boot. Some of their handle choices are stunning when you see them in person. For custom it'd be the new Randall Model 28, another one that you have to have in hand to really appreciate. Both are 58ish Rc like the others in this thread. It's also the hardness I prefer for a camp/outdoors knife.

Bravo-1 - Bark River Knife & Tool

A.G. Russell Knives | Randall® Model 28 Woodsman

Bob

Don't forget that Buck has a lifetime warranty on most of their knives! I once found a 110 folding hunter at a gun shop that had a busted tip, bought it for $3.00 knowing Buck would replace it and they did!

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Old paratrooper in NC

A pic of my modest collection, only one is a buck and it has been a good performer.

When I was younger (much) I used to take my mod.#119 and put it in the breast bone of the deer I killed and use my 110 folding hunter as a hammer to drive the 119 all the way through the breast bone from sturnum to collar to split the rib cage, did this for 4 or 5 years 5 or 6 deer a year, till I learned and became strong enough to just use the 119 to cut through the bone. I still have both of those knives and they are none the worse for wear. No chips in the steel but the handels show their age. If I had to guess I would say these knives are about 25+ years old and I still use them both sometime.

I thought they advertised them cutting through nails, not bolts.

Regardless, when I first got into LE most of the officers I knew carried a Buck 110 on their belts and so I bought one too. I still have it although the sheath died years ago. I like their knives and have always liked their fixed blade products and wouldn't have a problem trusting my life to one over some of the big name, high priced knives. One thing I did do later in my career was to carry a utility knife and a seperate self defense knife.

I grew up with Buck knives, and have never gone for any significant period of time without at least one. Usually the 110 Folding Hunter.

As a matter of fact, I am wearing one on my belt right now.

I've lost them, had them stolen, loaned them out and never saw them again, even had to sell one to a small town cop when I was short on bail money (seriously), but I've never ever broken one.

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Where do we go from here?

Just for show and tell is this buck decorated by chief yellowhorse. The blade is chipped like a flint knife.

I have a bunch of Buck fixed blade knives and have been using them for years --- there are 102's (the small game/bird/trout size) scattered around every tackle box and camp kitchen kit I own, with the similar, larger 105 here and there among them, a General in the truck, an unnumbered general purpose SS skinner in my hunting pack, occasionally backed up by a cherished, engraved-with-my-name 103 "Skinner", a gift to new members of the Outdoor Writers of America Association, (not a "safe queen", a knife I've used to skin a bunch of big game), and a replacement of a "Pro-Line" skinning knife, which I foolishly lent to a "client" to skin and bone out a bear I'd called in for him.

A companion who I thought was supervising the skinning/boning procedure, while I packed some gear back to the truck, told me that for some reason, the neophyte hunter thought he needed to break the pelvic girdle to properly eviscerate the bear (completely erroneous), actually pounded on the spline of the knife with a rock to affect splitting the heavy bone.

The knife broke at the tang. I sent it back to Buck with a word of explanation, feeling somewhat foolish, as the knife had obviously been abused, but also had a designed-in weak point. The replacement was shipped without comment or quibbling. I have experienced no other failures of Buck Knives, and have found them to be reliably capable of holding an edge beyond the call of duty.

When I wrote to Chuck Buck, Jr., to thank him for the gift of the personalized Skinner, I mentioned that when I open the drawer that holds my working knives, almost all are Bucks.

Any further endorsement necessary?

This is kind of what worries me. But I don't abuse knives that way.

I do know that some pound Fallkniven and other tough knives that way through wood. They call it "batonning". The F-1 model of Fallkniven is meant to withstand that, as it is the issue knife of the Royal Swedish Air Force, and a downed pilot in winter there needs to be able to use his knife to split wood and get a fire going. Most Fallkniven models have the appleseed or Moran edge bevel for added strength. Blade steel is usually a laminate with a VG-10 core and 420 sides.

I prefer a saw or hatchet for that sort of thing, but a guy who has just ejected from a jet won't have those.

I do know that many who live in the arctic bush in Canada and Alaska wear Buck products, including many Innuit or whatever Eskimos prefer being called now. Their knives must remain reliable under conditions of extreme cold, which might affect blade brittleness. That's pretty rough real world use.

One poster mentioned the RC hardness of Randall knives. They are more in tune now with the 56-58RC of other modern knives. (Yes, some knives exceed 60RC and don't damage easily, although they may be hard to sharpen.) "Bo" Randall told me years ago that his RC averaged then more like 53-54 RC, as most customers couldn't sharpen hard blades. And he felt that with his steels, the softer blades were less likely to chip. He tested them on Florida heartwood pine, BTW. The knife that chipped a little may have been re-sharpened to a thinner edge profile.

I want a knife that will take the stress of emergency wood chopping or splitting, and won't break if I have to stab a dog, a bear, or a cougar. I know of men killing bears and cougars, even an African lion, with their belt knives, so no laughing from the cynics, please. One black bear stabbed by a angler turned out to have killed eight other men and stashed them in a food cache. I once interviewed a fellow from Vancouver Island about his having slain an attacking cougar with his lockblade folder. It was the Schrade copy of the Buck No. 110. He was ripped up pretty badly, but survived. Some of you may have seen him talk about this incident on Discovery TV. He fared a lot better than some other cougar attack victims. He could probably have done better, had he seen the cat approach, but it got him from behind, by surprise. He's lucky to be alive!

It's this extreme emergency use that I asked about. I'm pretty sure that the Buck models that I mentioned would suffice. After all, the Schrade folder worked on that cougar, and folding knives have that joint that weakens them, compared to a fixed-blade knife.

The news here today reported an attack on a man near my home, by two pit bulls. They put him in the hospital, with substantial injuries. Neighbors called the cops, but none went to his aid. The dogs will be killed if not claimed; the pound has them now.

I'm thinking that if this man had had a good folding knife in a belt pouch, he might have fared better. (This is in a nice part of Dallas, and a fixed-blade knife wouldn't be in order. I'm guessing that few there carry guns.)

Anyway, the news about Buck seems good. Thanks for the feedback. Keep it coming!

Oh: Fallkniven knives are made in Japan, but by a very high quality manufacturer, to the designs of the Swedish firm's owner. They have passed severe military trials in both the US and in Sweden, and at the Technical University of Lulea.

SOG's original SEAL 2000 knife also passed grim tests before being selected for use by the US Navy. These included tests for point breakage under high stress, but the knives pulled through.

Official trials like that impress me, but I don't know of any being done to Buck or most other knives. So, feedback from the world of outdoor use is probably the best way to determne their toughness. (Internet "tests" seem to consist of a windy host turning the knife around in his hands as he talks a lot, and does little.)

T-Star

Sir, FWIW, I kept a Buck Special (No. 119, I think) in my "Oh NO!" bag for a long time. I used it as a field knife in the Marine Corps, and it did fine. I'd hesitate to use it for heavy chopping because of the hollow-ground blade, but used just for cutting, it's a good piece of gear. I'm not familiar with the Puma you mention, so can't comment on that.

The Bark River Bravo 1 that someone else mentioned would be a good choice for a field/survival knife. It replaced the Buck Special in my "Oh NO!" bag. It's flat-ground and full-tang, with a very thick spine--amazingly rugged for its size. "Batoning" is no problem. It's somewhat brutish for fine work, mainly because of the thick blade, but easier to resharpen than a Buck. Bark River's Bravo 2 is also good--it's a bigger version of the Bravo 1, similar in size to the old ka-bar. Bark River knives are expensive, though. It's easy to spend $200-$300 on one.

At a lower price point, $100 or so, the Ontario RAT series fixed-blades might suit your purposes. They're also full-tang and flat-ground, and people who have them seem to like them.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

Your Bark River was a convex grind when it left BRKT. Generally, you can reshape a convex grind to flat and visa-versa. The grind you can't change easily, if at all, is a hollow grind as there's just not enough metal to work with. It's worth the effort to work at keeping a convex grind on a blade as it works so well with a general purpose camp/survival knife. The maker spent a good bit of extra money making the blade that way so why not enjoy it?

BTW congrats on your knife...great choice. You can spend less on a production knife but those are special. Just tell yourself you've earned it.

Bob

I never liked the edge on my buck hunting knives (both now lost).

I did find a very small lock-back while fishing and carried it for years. It was light enough that it stayed on top of all the keys and change in my pocket. It was remarkable the way it seemed to "float".

I slipped it on my key ring and threw it in the little basket once when I forgot about it when going to the airport. That was previous to 9/11 but the screener never even looked at it. Also now lost.

If you detect a trend, just let me say that second son bought a new Gerber one afternoon, came home and killed and dressed a deer and lost the knife before dark. At least that one was his.

The 119 and 110 are solid field knives, most Walmarts can supply one. The 119s sold at Walmart have a cheap Chinese synthetic sheath, get it wet and it'll shrink. The phenolic handle on the 119 can get a bit slippery. It can be replaced I suppose, or wrapped in tape. There's also shiny bits on the handle that need to be dealt with. The tips can break depending on what you do with them.

A lot of people use carbon steel Mora knives as field knives. They're dirt cheap and generally stand up to moderate use batoning, plus they're easy to sharpen and strike a good spark off steel.

The only folding knive that ever really held up for me was my old Benchmade Ares folder with the green handle. I used mine as a can and bottle opener, pry bar, and screw driver. It held up. My Benchmade AFK auto has also been around a bit and didn't fail.

The Buck 110s were a favorite of the Manson family for both desert/bush craft and homicide. They worked well enough, but the lack of an ability to open one with one hand can be a bit of a problem if you're injured, frozen, etc.

Les Stroud, TV's Survivor man, can be seen with a Buck 119 in some episodes.

If you get a copy of the Backwoodsman magazine, there will be ads for a couple guys that can make you a nice outdoors knife for not too much money.

The Buck 119 will strike some sparks, but isn't that great at it. It can also be moderately more difficult than a carbon blade to sharpen in the field.

I also grew up with Buck's, first real knife I ever bought was a 110 folder. Several years ago I wandered over to the Case XX brand and am still with them, especially since Buck moved their production over seas. I still have a few US made Buck knives around but don't think I will be adding any more.

Many Buck knives are still made in the USA. They do have cheaper offerings that are made in China, though still to better standards than your average flea market PRC knives. Buck is actually fairly apologetic about having to have some knives made overseas, but were essentially forced to in order to compete in the current market.

110s and 119s are still U.S. made, at least as of a year or so ago when I bought another 119.

The 119s purchased from Buck's web page generally come with leather sheaths that I think are made in the USA. But even the Walmart ones feature an American made knife with only the sheath being imported.

Any compay that makes up custom tactical gear for a Molle/Pals type platforms can of course fabricate a new sheath.

Something that I forgot to mention last night, and a little off-topic but relevant, was Buck's role in the development and manufacture of the M9 bayonet.

Google "Buck M9 bayonet" if you wish to read more.

__________________
Where do we go from here?

I have a 112 Ranger I bought in 1975 and carried dailey for over 20 years. Geat knife. I only stopped carrying when pocket clips came out and I bought a smaller lighter knife with the same blade length. I think in many of their knives Buck still uses 420HC because it works.

Yup. The really good ones won't adopt the latest "designer" steel that comes down the pike. They find a steel that fits the way they work a knife, and gives them the results they want to achieve for the customer, and stick with it. The great Bob Loveless has used only three steels in a career over 55 years.

You can say what you want about Buck, be it good or bad, but the fact remains they do know knives.

Bob

I have a 119 Special that I have used for over 20 years that is still in great shape. It took an extremely sharp edge and will hold it quite well with normal use. I carry a 110 daily and it has proven to be an excellent heavy duty folding knife. Neither have demonstrated the slightest tendency to chip. The 420HC steel used in Buck knives isn't the same as the cheap 420J2 some other foreign makers use.

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195th Session FBINA

Keep in mind that Buck does have a good heat treatment on their 420HC. Like Centenniel in the post above, I think their blades are better than some others made of the same steel, or from different types of 420.

420 resists rust well, and is the outer steel in Fallkniven's laminated blades. They used to use straight VG-10, but now, only the core steel is VG-10. The blades are said to test even tougher than the straight VG-10 ones is flex tests.

It probably isn't fair to compare Buck to the far more expensive Fallkniven products, but I think Buck makes good knives. Other than their basic classic styles, I think their designs leave a lot to be desired, but I'm just not into modern "tactical" knives.

I think that as long as one avoids abusing the fairly slim tips, the No 119 and No. 120 (discontinued now, alas) are good enough for about anything that most people should be doing with a knife. And the price is very fair.

T-Star
P.S. Keep in mind that carbon steel blades will strike a spark better, but they also rust! I don't like to strike sparks with my knife, anyway.

I have, and have had a bunch of Buck knives over the years (including a 110) and I was never that impressed with them. For an everyday carry knife to open boxes, cut an occasional piece of rope, and open the bills with they are fine. The Buck knives I have are made of stainless steel which is difficult to sharpen and have hold a keen edge. I have come across a few OLD Marbles knives that were made by the original Marbles Axe Company and they will out perform a Buck knife any day. Unfortunately, they are not making those old knives anymore. Now what Marbles is putting their name on are those cheap imported knives made of cheap stainless steel from China. They look pretty, but aren't worth a ****. You can still by good knives from Queen, Shatt & Morgan, and a few other Company's, but they are few and far between now.

That said, I carried Buck knives for many many years until I found an old rusted Marbles knife that I restored. Now my Buck's are getting a well deserved vacation.

Some of my Buck Knives,Allso have the Buck Royalty Line Empress Trio (very rare.)
Dick

There's an article about Buck knives in the current (Sept./Oct.) issue of American Handgunner, which mentions their efforts to bring production back to the US. The model I referred to in my earlier post as a "General" is properly called a "Special", which is a large, heavy bladed knife, too long and heavy for most tasks, but apparently robust --- its the only knife among those I own that I'd even think about using for "chopping", a task better done by machetes and axes.

Minor thread drift... but the Bucks somewhat depend on what one means by a survival knive. The 119 was/is among the quintenessential American hungting knives. I may have spelled that wrong, oh well. The design of the blade is such to assist getting the insides of a deer or similar sized creature on the outside. I broke the tip off a 119 when I was in college, mid way through I think. I don't remember what I was doing with it, probably something I shouldn't have been. I just remember a snap noise and no more tip.

Anyway, those that tune in "Dual Survival", the latest popular pseudo reality survival show, will notice that Cody Lundin (who actually does have years of experience, despite being a bit odd) carries a Mora around his neck. The other guy has a more modern looking medium sized knife with a non glare blade.

Most people do not carry a means to sharpen a knive around with them. I do (Lansky pull through), but most people do not. That's where a stainless knive can be a problem. Find the right rock, or your leather belt for stropping, and a Mora can soon be shaving sharp. Expoxy a flint striker rod to the sheath and you can start a fire. Or find the right rock.

The trick to not having a carbon blade rust is to wipe it down. Worked well for centuries. Anyway, if the blade gets dulled - which batoning quickly tends to do on all but a few high priced knives - it helps to have a means to resharpen. The Bucks can be made passibly sharp with a Lansky or other field pull through sharpener, but a carbon steel knife... that you can get almost shaving sharp even with crude tools.

If someone is determined to use a stainless blade primarily, I'd suggest investing in a Douk Douk to carry with it.

Okay, someone has to ask...what's a Douk Douk?

Douk Douk is a cheap French slip-joint "customized" for the South Pacific area where the Duk Duk god is a big deal. French never could spell right(or fight either).

Bob

Sir, the Bark River does indeed have a convex edge profile, but the rest of the blade is a flat grind. In cross-section, it's shaped more or less like this: \/.

I don't know what edge profile the Buck came with when new (compound, probably), but back of the edge, the blade is hollow-ground in cross-section. It's shaped more or less like this: )(. This sort of grind leaves the blade thinner in cross-section, and thus not as strong as a flat grind.

This photo isn't very good, but it should help to illustrate what I mean. The Buck on the left is hollow-ground; you can see the radius of the wheel it was ground on. The Bark River at right is flat-ground.


Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

__________________
Wishin' don't make it so.

Most Pumas are flat-ground, as are most Fallkniven, as I recall. The latter also have the appleseed or Moran edge.

Both are expensive. The Fallkniven are designed and made (in Japan) for a Swedish company, headed by a knowledgeable hunter and angler. Don't confuse Fallkniven with cheap Mora or Frost knives from Sweden.

I wish that Fallkniven was better known here. They probably cost too much for shops in malls and most sporting goods stores to stock them. The average hunter or angler won't pay that much for a knife.

Flat ground knives are certainly stronger than semi hollowground ones like Buck, but if someone breaks a Buck, he was probably doing something 'way more than a knife should be doing.

I suspect that if a Buck breaks, it's either at the narrow point on the No 119, or at the guard, if the tang snaps.

I wonder if sticking a thrashing shark on deck could break a knife? That's got to be one of the more stressful things a knife might be asked to do. The very sharp point on the 119 and the discontinued 120 should stab well through the tough shark skin, though.

I figure that either of these models or the discontinued No. 124 (like the Nemo) should be okay if a cougar needs stabbing. (You can see No. 124's or Nemos in the photo above of the knives in a box. They're at the top and bottom in the pic.) In the case that I cited on Vancouver Island, a Schrade folder worked, and it is both hollowground and has a joint to weaken the knife. But the man using it told me on the phone that he had no trouble, other than getting the knife open after he was attacked. He was damaged; the knife wasn't.

T-Star

Correct, sorry I was not as clear as I could have been. A convex grind at the edge(see, I'm getting better but probably still no hope) is also called the Moran or appleseed edge as referenced above.

Bob