Smith beat out Glock and Siggie in ATF testing

[wheeler10k]

May be old news...

U.S. GAO - B-402339.3, Sig Sauer, Inc., July 23, 2010

[n4zov]

I skimmed the document but never read that the ATF is actually going to buy S&W. Did I miss something or is ATF still praying and meditating over making a decision? Also does anybody know what ATF agents currently carry?

[Bullseye 2620]

Do you know which S&W models were tested? I presume the Sigs were 226s and 239s. Can you confirm? Thanks.


Bullseye

[Bullseye 2620]

Originally Posted by n4zov

I skimmed the document but never read that the ATF is actually going to buy S&W. Did I miss something or is ATF still praying and meditating over making a decision? Also does anybody know what ATF agents currently carry?

They carry Sigs.

[wheeler10k]

Fun parts of report redacted, obviously so _________ doesn't read it.

[2000Z-71]

Originally Posted by Bullseye 2620

Do you know which S&W models were tested? I presume the Sigs were 226s and 239s. Can you confirm? Thanks.


Bullseye

From the attached link under Background, it stated that ATF was looking to replace their current metal frame .40 caliber weapons with new polymer frame .40 caliber weapons in both a standard duty size and smaller less conventional carry size.

From that I'm assuming it was the Smith M&P and M&Pc, Glock 19 and 23, and Sig 250 standard and sub compacts.

[LVSteve]

Originally Posted by wheeler10k

Fun parts of report redacted, obviously so _________ doesn't read it.

I could not see any blank outs?

The report makes interesting reading in that the Sig folks clearly expected a shoo-in and got grumpy when it did not happen. How's that for a summary? Sig protesting the one objective measure, stoppages, claiming that the agents' subjective comments were the correct answer would be funny if it were not so pathetic.

Some clues on the test methods would be nice. the number of operator induced stoppages on all the guns makes you wonder what exotic shooting positions were used.

[oldman45]

All the ATF had to do was ask those of us here. We could have saved them from having to test the guns.

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I have known since I was a kid that S&W built the nicest guns there are and I own several brands so I can say that.

[badam0112]

Originally Posted by oldman45

All the ATF had to do was ask those of us here. We could have saved them from having to test the guns.

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I have known since I was a kid that S&W built the nicest guns there are and I own several brands so I can say that.

I guess it would depend on who you asked. Of the 3 models mentioned I'd say get the Glock. I was completely turned off by the M&P because of the wire/spring you have to disengage with the ice pick tool to disasemble it. I sold it about a week after I got it.

[Harrison]

Why the need for testing? Glock seems to work for many many agencies and is inexpensive. What makes ATF so special that they need a different pistol than some of the biggest police forces in the nation carry? Can the taxpayers afford to re-equip ATF? Have they already worn out what they are carrying? I doubt it. Seems like a waste of taxpayers money by a Fed agency.

[oldman45]

Originally Posted by badam0112

I guess it would depend on who you asked. Of the 3 models mentioned I'd say get the Glock. I was completely turned off by the M&P because of the wire/spring you have to disengage with the ice pick tool to disasemble it. I sold it about a week after I got it.

IMHO: Glock is over rated. Seldom is the KaBoom factor mentioned when speaking about Glock. Just google it and see all the LE injuries from such.

Then there is the limp wristing problems, which will occur with many brands but not as pronounced.

Want to talk about their high rate of magazine failure?

How about the easily damaged grips? I have a Model 22 with multiple indentions in the grips from the seat belt.

[oldman45]

Originally Posted by Harrison

Why the need for testing? Glock seems to work for many many agencies and is inexpensive. What makes ATF so special that they need a different pistol than some of the biggest police forces in the nation carry? Can the taxpayers afford to re-equip ATF? Have they already worn out what they are carrying? I doubt it. Seems like a waste of taxpayers money by a Fed agency.

Well, I think pretty much all depts will replace their guns every few years. They have taxpayer money to spend so they replace whereas the taxpayer cannot afford nor would they want to do such.

Then we have to examine all the agencies that are distancing themselves from Glock. Many are replacing with S&W or Sig. I know one that went to Ruger, which shocked me.

[safearm]

I think it's legitimite to test these guns. The Glock .40 series (22,23,27) has had significant reliability problems; Detroit and Milwaukee both dumped their Glocks for S&W M&P.
I do find it surprising that Sig had problems. Sig has had the federal LE market for a long time, and now it looks like S&W has the chance to pull off a big buy.
The document didn't say that ATF is going to buy the guns, but the decision is now between S&W and Glock, unless Sig files a suit in Federal District Court.

[DrMark]

Originally Posted by badam0112

I was completely turned off by the M&P because of the wire/spring you have to disengage with the ice pick tool to disasemble it. I sold it about a week after I got it.

You don't have to disengage the sear using that wire/spring.

With around 2000 rounds and numerous disassemblings, I've never used that wire/spring.

You can use the trigger to lower the sear for diassembly, just as is done on the Glock. That's what I do. The M&P simply offers an additional, lawyer-approved option.

[n4zov]

Originally Posted by Harrison

Why the need for testing? Glock seems to work for many many agencies and is inexpensive. What makes ATF so special that they need a different pistol than some of the biggest police forces in the nation carry? Can the taxpayers afford to re-equip ATF? Have they already worn out what they are carrying? I doubt it. Seems like a waste of taxpayers money by a Fed agency.

Yep, you nailed it! In addition, every single Federal law enforcement agency will have its own series of tests to select a new handgun when they want to change. The FBI, Secret Service, Postal Inspectors, U.S. Marshals will all go through their own tests because of their "unique needs" and you can rest assured they will all reach a different conclusion. Just another waste of our tax dollars.

[stiab]

Originally Posted by n4zov

Also does anybody know what ATF agents currently carry?

Sig P229, Sig P239, S&W 640-1