I've admired the Thompson submachine gun for a long time, and along the way I've accumulated three of the West Hurley semiautos - a 1927 "pistol", a 1927A1 deluxe with FBI-style hardcase, and an M1; these all have legal-length barrels.

I've wanted to do an article on the Thompsons for quite a while, but lacked an adequate photograph to accompany the article. I was talking with my gunsmith about the dilemma recently, and he volunteered his Thompson for photographing. So this morning I went out to his house and took a series of pictures in his back yard.

This is a West Hurley Auto Ordnance 1928 example. Since I wanted to represent a Thompson set up for military work, I chose the horizontal foregrip for the photo, although we also used a vertical grip in other pictures. An original 50-round drum magazine is in place, duplicating many of the original WWII setups.

I thought you'd be interested in the result. The image is copyrighted to me, but members of this forum are free to use it only for their personal use; it's not to be used for any commercial purpose. At any rate, here's the photo I plan to use for the article:



John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Very nice John. Been a Thompson fan my whole life!

An original Colt production gun is my "Holy grail" gun of all time. It's only a dream though.

Russ

Great gun, and an even better photo.

As used in combat, how common was the drum, as opposed to the stick, magazine? Thanks for the post and the information, and please post the completed article when you finish it.


Bullseye

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Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

The stick was far more common.It was less likely to become dented or fouled and they were lighter.I have read about how the drum was used in the initial assault and then discarded.

Bullseye,

Thanks!

To answer your question - in the early stages of the war, when 1921, 1921 overstamp and 1928 Thompsons were issued, the drum magazine was in fairly common use. When the M1 and M1A1 Thompsons began to come on stream, the 30-round stick magazine became much more common. These later guns did not accept the drum magazine, but the earlier guns could take drums and all 20- and 30-round sticks.

The article I will be writing will probably appear some time in the future in Dillon's Blue Press catalog/magazine. I'll certainly alert you when and if it's published, and it can be read online if you don't have a (free) subscription. The March, 2011 issue has the article on the Thompson.

Just for fun, here's the same gun, this time with a vertical foregrip attached, and equipped with a 20-round mag. Same guidelines for use of the photo as in the original post.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

John:
I saw an article about a guy who designed a straight-line stock for the Thompson. He couldn't get the military to adopt it, however. It was supposed to reduce felt recoil and boost control. Have you seen that article?

It might have been in Gun Digest (the annual) several years ago.

I owned a Full Auto 1928 for the better part of a decade. Without a doubt the most fun I have ever had with a firearm. I miss it, but I sold it at the height of the market before the down turn and walked away a happy camper.

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Dave

I have seen at least 2 WWII photographs that show a Thompson with a drum magazine, in a combat zone.

I was very surprised, as I thought that only the GI 'stick' magazines were used. I was obviously mistaken

I'm sorry to say I didn't save links to the 2 photos.

That sure is beautiful photo of an iconic piece of American firearms history!

I, too have seen a combat pic of a drum-equipped Thompson. I can't provide a link, but it was of a GI coming off a landing craft during a landing in the Pacific. I thought it odd at the time.

My uncle was a tank commander in Europe and used a drum-equipped Thompson as well. He was issued a grease gun, but "liberated" the Thompson from a museum somewhere in Belgium where it was labeled as an "American Gangster's Gun."

I've seen wartime photos of the drum mag in use, and also the vertical foregrip. One of the latter was a US Navy gun during the invasion of North Africa. I think a photographic crew had it.

The Commonwealth countries also used many Thompsons before the Sten replaced it in most units. (Commandos often retained it after the Sten became available.)

I posted before about an officer named Raleigh Trevelyan. At Monte Casino, he used a Tommygun to chop up a German hiding behind a bush. Later walked over and confirmed the kill, his first. I think his book is, "The Fortress."

I read it in high schoool, so it's probably been out of print for years, but a copy may turn up in a used book store or on the Net. A good read. I've also seen pics of New Zealanders using Thompsons alongside SMLE rifles at Monte Casino. And I've mentioned, "The Hundred Days of Lt. MacHorton", who had to leave his Thompson behind after being wounded in Burma. He took his Colt .38 and a Ghurka knife as he struggled alone back to the British lines in India. The Thompson was just too heavy to lug in his condition.

BTW, when Trevelyan was wounded, the doc who worked on his face was Max Factor!

I've fired a couple of Thompsons, and they seemed to me to be heavy and ill balanced. But they were sure well made! I saw an FBI agent fire one and he was quite an artist with it. I think the Bureau has since replaced their Thompsons with 10mm H-K guns.

T-Star
P.S. John, thanks for the fine photos!

Has anyone seen the color WWII government film of the American ship(or sub) and the Navy sailor on deck was shooting full auto bursts at Japanese sailors floating in the water. It was pretty graphic and it was stated as one of the few times authorization was given to strafe enemy men in the water instead of taking prisoners.

I think the sailor was using a drum.

Nice pictures! I really wanted one of these since I got back into guns. I know they can be pretty expensive to buy. Unfortunately I cant have one, because they are BANNED in my state.( I know I can move but having a business that relies on customers in the area make that difficult.) Anyhow the history of the gun is fascinating and makes a very good read. The building in Bridgeport, CT has been torn down as best I can tell. Most of the block where they were is gone. The Cutts compensator is/was made in CT also!

Cant wait for the article!

When is the blue press going to publish the article on the S&W M61?

This is kind of a "where's Waldo picture"... I think if you look closely, you'll find my baby...

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Jack C

1921 and an M1A1

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I have been lucky enough to shoot a fair amount of Thompsons over the years.

I am a big fan of the 45 ACP for up close work, so I do not find the weight of the Thompson to be a problem for me. They are very controlable.

I have a two friends that used a Thompson in Viet Nam, and they really liked how well it "worked".

That's as good as or better than any of the pictures in my $120 Collector Grade book on the Thompsons.

That's a great picture(s) - especially since you shot it outside in his backyard. Can you provide a few details about the lighting & background etc - there are few shadows and the detail is great. I want to take some shots of some of my long guns but can't seem to come up with a good set-up.

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Lou

Thast is a great picture. Years ago my dad found a Jap. toy copy at a flea market for $15. I gave him his $15 back the second I saw it. I found a $2 buttstock at the flea market but don't have the hardware. This gun reminds me of one of my heroes as a kid, Vic Morrow as Sgt. Saunders on "Combat". Everything functions on this gun. I looked into a vertical grip at Auto Ordanence but what's the odds the long A.O. screw is threaded to fit this thing. I'd like to see a picture of your "pistol" as they don't look right to me with 16" barrels.

Tips on making great gun pictures!

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Still Running Against the Wind

Hi:
At the beginning of WWII the drum magazine and vertical hand grip were common. As the war progessed the stick magazine and horizonal hand grip became more in use.
The British preferred the drum magazine and vertical hand grip.
The Model 1928A1 was the Thompsons in inventory with stick magazine and horizonal hand grip when I was in the Military along with M1A1s and M3 Grease Guns.
Jimmy

I haven't yet done an article on the Model 61 Escort pistol, principally because it was such a loser in the marketplace, and I'd have to say some words which S&W might consider unkind. However, I guess I could work around that gently. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll sure consider it!

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I was lucky yesterday, since we had an overcast sky; unusual for Arizona. That's ideal for taking such pictures, even better than a shaded area. Either environment makes for taking pictures with diffused shadows. As mentioned before, I wrote a short piece on taking pictures of firearms:

Tips on making great gun pictures!

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

When I was in boy scouts 30+ years ago we had a camp caretaker who fought in the Pacific in WWII and was armed with the Thompson. He loved it and said it was near-ideal for jungle island campaigning. He said his practice was to have 2 drums and 5 sticks (I presume 20s). He'd use the two drums first and then the sticks. He said the sticks were the only practical mag when it came to reloading in the field. He lost one of his drums at one point and couldn't find a replacement, but that was around when the 30-rd mags became available, so he switched to 1 drum and six 30-rd sticks for the rest of the war.

Wyatt,

Your wish is my command! Here's a pic of my semiauto Thompson "pistol." It has a 13" barrel (about the same length as the normal Thompson barrel with a compensator). ATF didn't like these guns in spite of the fact that they will not accept a buttstock, so they made AO quit making them. It looks surprisingly like the very first Thompsons.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I was off the coast of Vietnam on Market Time patrol and my station was just above whatever boat we were inspecting..I had a Thompson with the stick mag, plus one in my pocket..when we held practice I was the only one that could more or less get the rounds to go in the right direction so I was the designated "Thompson Gunner"..trouble was those old boats they used were so water logged that the bullets would go straight through everything, and we had more than one incident where we had to fire and the boat looked like a piece of swiss cheese and sank right next to the ship..the Navy never did have modern small arms and the first AR I saw looked like a space gun from the old science fiction movies..we had BAR's, Thompson's, M-1 Garand's, M-1 Carbines and 30 and 50 Caliber machine guns..lots of fun to shoot and the gunner's mates got to clean them up so that was always a deal for me..

My father in law served in the Navy during WW II in the Pacific.One night he was on watch,armed with a Thompson.He saw a diver swimming toward his ship, had been warned about sabotage attempts by Japanese divers so he opened up with the Thompson & killed the approaching diver.He normally ran a landing craft that had been converted to a rocket launcher so he didn't have much opportunity for hand to hand combat.After the war he ferried officers & bigwigs to & from Bikini during the atomic bomb tests & suffered from radiation poisoning until the day he died.He was quite a guy & I was glad to have known him.
I've been lucky-one of my life-long best friends has a collection of WW II sub machine guns including this one.We shoot it several times a year.
Regards,
turnerriver
SWCA # 1426
NRA Endowent Life member

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turnerriver

This is about as close as I will ever get to owning a Thompson.



One of those electrically powered air soft guns. It will go full auto though and the local pigeons and ground squirrels don't like it at all.

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A closed mouth gathers no foot

In certainly don't have the photography skills of Paladin, but here are a few shots of my Colt 21/28 Navy.

My daddy told me his ship, a yard minesweeper (YMS) had a Thompson. Pappy said that the first thing he did was throw the drum overboard.

A friend of mine has a 1928 AC. It's a real hoot to shoot.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Steave,

That's a beautiful Thompson! Thanks for sharing!

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Sorry for the cluttered , lousy digital.. an original FBI owned Thompson. This spent it's time at the Chicago Field Office for many years before getting transferred to the Montana Office. Came with original hard case, two 50 rd drums and an array of stick mags.

The drums didn't function very well, the springs seemed to be weak. But the 20 rd mags ran perfectly. Wish I'd had the opportunity for better digitals.


FN in MT

I see there are quite few Thompson fans among us! Here are some additional shots of one of my semiautos. This first one shows it in an FBI-style hard case. Included are an original 50-round drum mag, some 30 and 20 round mags, a horizontal foregrip, an original sling, and oiler. Note the original Thompson instruction manual, and safety instructions on a plate from a U.S. Navy ship.



This next shot shows the gun with its stock attached. I modified the gun to take the detachable Model 28 stock.



Here's a closeup of an original Lyman rear sight I mounted on this gun. These were used on the Models 1921 and 1928 full autos. They are collectible in their own right now, and worth several hundred dollars apiece. I was lucky to get one when they were still affordable!



John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

My 5th grade teacher, Mr. Flynn, was in the navy, he showed us kids a movie one day when he was in the navy and they were using a Thompson on swimming sharks, cool film.

Can you imagine the outrage now if a teacher showed kids a movie of sharks getting machine gunned by a Thompson, he was a cool teacher.

One of the few old Guns & Ammo mags I saved was the May 1983 issue that had a cover story on the Thompson. Still reread it once in awhile, definetly one of my favorite guns!

Interesting thread and nice photos!

Here's mine.M1 Thompson Submachine Gun.
Hey, It's in great shape for spending 70 years on a coral reef!
The guy I got it from said his brother in law found it while SCUBA diving in the Pacific. Sadly,he didn't know what island.
Do you I paid too much? I gave him $10.

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I picked up an M1A1 a few months before the 86 ban. I love the big whang on the steel targets compared to the puny 9mm hits. It's heavy but it is one of my favorite subguns. Those who carried these in the service have my admiration as the gun and six or so mags weigh a ton.

My son Jonathan pictured during a December shoot

wow so many really nice tommy guns, I am so jealous!!

Any one have one made by Warner Swasey? They did make them for a while but seem to be very hard to locate.

How are the new semi auto ones, I am not sure how great it would be in semi only?

Here in CT these are banned by name so we cannot have them, I have been looking at something that has a similar look. Anyone know about the Fox Carbine? I have been researching them for a while now and other than using a rubber block as a buffer they seem an ok toy. The rubber block have rotted away at this point and the bolt can slam back and crack the receiver. The receiver is made of zinc die cast it cannot be fixed.
These can be had some what cheap...

I'd be looking for a different state - Seriously.
What's with the laws up there on the eastern seaboard? Who elects these twits? AND re-elects them - D U H ! ! !
You're in the part of the country where the USA got started and all of the *better* colleges are - Yet they don't understand the constitution - Amazing! Oh - Or is it that they just don't care?

OH YEAH = A *gun* with a die cast zinc receiver should be cheap - They're what's called toys.

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In dog years I'm dead.

I rather like the semiauto carbines, except for the ungainly 16-inch barrels. They are fun to shoot, with virtually no recoil. Alas, they are somewhat heavy.

The 1927A5 stockless "pistol" is a true joy. It has an aluminum upper receiver, so it's not so heavy, and the 13-inch barrel is a lot handier. Fired from the hip, it will keep tin cans bouncing easily. It will accept the 50-round drums as well as stick mags. It's a pretty intimidating "house gun!" Sadly, these are now virtually unobtainable due to the short production run. If you find one at a reasonable cost, I'd sure snap it up.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

For larger and more detailed photos on various Thompsons, go to my album in the "Pictures & Albums" section here:

Smith & Wesson Forum - PALADIN85020's Album: Thompsons!

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Have read about Tommy Gun being chambered in .38 super. May have been in book "Cartridges of the World."
Anyone have info about this?
Tks, Kevin

Very Nice photos, Thanks for posting.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Best entry gun for #1 on the stick.....EVERYBODY knows it and bad guys DO fear it...thug told me once it looked like the sound a pump shotgun makes when it is racked into battery....

Every time I see a photo of a Thompson I flashback to a childhood experience
that happened to me when I was about 10, which would have been around 1967.

Anytime my Dad needed something welded he went to a shop about 1/2 mile
from our place that also rented utility trailers. More often than not, while the
guy was doing the welding, I would go out and play around the trailers.

This shop had a cement driveway about 2 car widths across with trailers
angled in, tongues first, on both sides of the drive. On one side the tongues
came up near a chain link fence, on the other a solid wood, privacy type, fence.

I was on the side with the privacy fence and was balancing on the tongue
of a trailer when I seen a heavy, brown, paper bag, kind of like the type
cement comes in, pinned under the tongue of a nearby trailer.

For some reason I went over and kicked the bag and felt something in
it so I pulled it open and found a Thompson SMG with a stick magazine in it.
I distinctly remember that the wood had an aged, patina to it.

As soon as I seen that it was a gun, not knowing what type it was at the time,
I went and told my Dad "I found a gun!!" When he asked me, what kind of gun?
I remember saying "The kind Sarge carries on Combat!" I don't even know if he,
or the welder, had a clue as to what I meant.

They went over and got it and too be honest I don't remember if they even
called the Police. I know the Police didn't show up while we were there
and I was never asked about finding it by a Police Officer.

This welding shop was right across the road from the City Limits of Flint,
an area, at that time, that was already going downhill so was considered a
rough part of town. My guess is that one of the hood's from the 'hood
had stashed it there and probably came back later looking for it, only to find it gone.

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Ogy

Gents,

GREAT thread! I love the Thompson. I was privilged enough to fire several examples of M1s and a 28. As a younger Marine, it was a great thrill for me to fire them and feel what the soldiers, sailors and Marines felt when they carried her into battle.

With a little practice, one can get VERY decent groups if he shoots 3-4 shot bursts. As much as it pains me to say it, the M3 'Grease Gun' was a little more controllable that the M1 Thompson.

It doesn't diminish the fact that the Thompson has all of the attendant romance of far-flung outposts and patrols looking for Sandanista rebels, China Marines in Peking and in the the hedgerows of Normandy. I hear that the MAC-V SOG guys liked them in the early 60s.

Thanks for recalling the memories!

My dream gun.
When I was a kid back in the '60's this was what I dreamed about. In junior high I got a book from the library 'The Gun that Made the Twenties Roar', I read that thing 10 times at least, nowadays I'd have been expelled and marked for life, but a different time. A couple years ago I found a near perfect first edition copy of the same book for $25.
In late '85 and early'86 I worked in a small shop that sold FA's, at that time you could buy a Auto Ordnance FA with FBI case for $1200. Then FOPA '86 hit and the ceiling blew off.
I own a full size Deluxe Karh Arms model and a 10" barrel TA-5 model as partial compensation, nice but not quite there.
A few months ago my Wife came downstairs and asked 'Do you want to bid on a Thompson?', well She's known for decades I've wanted one and saw an auction online, of course I said 'Sure' and then She says 'It was owned by Bonnie and Clyde and it's going on auction, you should bid on it'. Well I had to laugh at that one and then explain that that gun was probably worth, as a basic 1921 around $25K, but since it had B&C provenance would probably fetch over $100k, but if She was that serious I'd be glad to put in a bid for that amount.
She wasn't.
RD

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Got a Phd from Hard Knocks U

Just fell across your thread on the net. What a find!! Joined instantly...

Own an AO SA Thompson and want to add a repro Cutts compensator to make it look more like an M1.

Loved the stories and the motto. I have used "Cogito, ergo sum" for a while now, but am considering "Cogito, ergo armatum sum", since I am and I am.

I had a friend, Tom, who I haven't seen in years. He told me he bought a demilled Thompson that was demilled by filling the chamber with bronze filler rod (brazing). He had it machined out and the gun would occasionally stick a cartridge in the chamber so he ordered a new surplus barrel. He was practicing 3 shot bursts and an FBI man caught him. He said to meet him at Tom's house that evening and be sure to have his father there. He read them the riot act and took the Thompson when he left but promised to return it (he never did). Nothing more came of the incident and years later Tom bought another (semi) Thompson from Auto Ordinance.

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Luke 22:36

True works of art, THE THOMPSON'S and YOUR PHOTOS.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

THOMPSON, THOMPSON !

Is there any love for REISING ?

Nice thread.

Let me share a look at my Colt 1921AC: