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  #1  
Old 09-27-2010, 09:53 AM
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NFrameFred NFrameFred is offline
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Question Obscure/obsolete (?) rifle cartridge question

A friend obtained an old German drilling that has a 16 gauge single shotgun barrel on top and a rifle barrel underneath in 8 X 57 R300* ( the designation stamped on the single old RWS cartridge that came in the butt trap underneath the stock).

In trying to research it on the net I must admit confusion at the listings of the metric variations of 8 X 57 Mauser, 8 X 57JS, 8 X 57JRS, etc., . . . .

It's obviously an 8mm projectile and a rimmed case with a 57 mm length but I've been unable to find anything definitive in the way of knowing what and if brass and dies can be procured. The old gun is in great shape and for it's day was likely a high dollar gun with engraving common to the type of the day. Someone (many years gone by) has milled the rib to accept scope mount bases for what I'm guessing were quick detachable mounts (which unfortunately seem to have been gone long before he got the gun). The bases are there but that is all; also obviously quality work. A very thin fold down "express" sight blade was original, as well, and provides a fine sight picture with the blade front which is inset with a brass (?) bead.

The gun is old enough and from my meager research it would seem obvious that it was (at least originally) designed as a black powder round, though the gun appears to be made from quality steel able to fire smokeless rounds.

Any help or information that the knowledgeable members here could supply concerning making of or procuring ammunition for the rifle barrel would be greatly appreciated.

*EDIT - See later posts - this was determined to be in error and should have been R360

Last edited by NFrameFred; 09-27-2010 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 09-27-2010, 10:24 AM
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I am no expert on drillings, but it sounds as if you have a 8x57mm Rimmed. Based on my limited knowledge it is just a rimmed version of the widely used 8x57 Mauser. Dies should be available from RCBS at least on a special order basis. Ammo is available here and probably from other sources as well:

krieghoff drillings, double rifles, combination guns
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Old 09-27-2010, 10:38 AM
walnutred walnutred is offline
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I'm no expert either but based on the information provided I'd bet what it says is 8x57 R360, not R300. These are NOT interchangeable with 8x57R as they are based on a different case, 9.3x72R if I remember correctly.

The 16 ga is probably 2.5" chambers but I don't think the 8x57R or 8x57 R360 was ever factory made with black powder charges. They were smokeless from the beginning.

Last edited by walnutred; 09-27-2010 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 09-27-2010, 10:52 AM
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Sounds like time for a chamber cast. Also, be sure to slug the barrel as there are two versions of "8mm" in German cartridges.(.318 and .323 dia.)
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Old 09-27-2010, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walnutred View Post
I'm no expert either but based on the information provided I'd bet what it says is 8x57 R360, not R300. These are NOT interchangeable with 8x57R as they are based on a different case, 9.3x72R if I remember correctly.

The 16 ga is probably 2.5" chambers but I don't think the 8x57R or 8x57 R360 was ever factory made with black powder charges. They were smokeless from the beginning.

There's the detail he got wrong - when I called him with your guess he put his glasses on and said it IS 8 X 57 R 360.

Guess that's why there wasn't any search information coming up that made sense.

According to the Kreighoff web site N4zov supplied the 8 X 57 R360 actually did begin life as a black powder round.

Thanks for the help guys.
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Old 09-27-2010, 11:48 AM
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Fred,

The biggest problem is figuring out which 8x57R cartridge you have. There are several different DWM rimmed cases and two bore diameters (0.318" early M/88, 3.23" S-type, after 1905). You will need to get some Cerro-Safe (or Cerro-Cast) from Brownells to make a chamber cast, either to identify the cartridge or to have RCBS make you a set of dies. If you are sure that your single DWM cartridge fits, you can measure the bullet diameter to determine which bore you have. The S-type bullet will be about 0.320". Otherwise, you need to slug the bore.

The different DWM headstamp numbers include:

466 - 8x57R (.360 British)
88A - 8x57R Mauser, 'A' Base
88B - 8x57R Flat Base
88C - 8x57R Hunting
357 - 8x57R
366D1 - 8x57JR Mauser, "B" base
366B - 8x57R Mauser, M/88, "A" Base

Good luck,

Buck


Added:

Found a cartridge drawing. How's your Espanol?

http://www.municion.org/8x57jrs/8x57R.htm

Last edited by haggis; 09-27-2010 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 09-27-2010, 12:13 PM
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I don't know about the rifle chamber, but you can figure out the length of the 16 gauge chambers in millimeters by the proof markings. Here's an example, the relevant marks from a 16-gauge German side by side double I examined recently:

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Old 09-27-2010, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haggis View Post


Added:

Found a cartridge drawing. How's your Espanol?

8x57 R / MUNICION.ORG
Thanks , Buck. I had already printed out those pages. I just let the old Googler translate it in Engles for me . . . .
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:21 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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There is an article on the 8x57R360 reprinted at:
Handloader Number 139, the 8x57R/360

Cases formed from 9.3x72R, which is not exactly common.
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:30 PM
walnutred walnutred is offline
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I'd have to check my Field Guide to Ctg Conversions but I think you can also use 30-40 Krag bras as a base.
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Old 09-27-2010, 11:16 PM
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RCBS will have dies for the 8X57 R360. Redding and C&H may have them also, possibly a little less expensive than RCBS.
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Old 09-28-2010, 02:58 AM
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You can probably get Norma 9,3x72R cases from Huntington Die Specialties | HDS | Home

Also I would use Hawk bullets with the .030 jacket.
They are easy on old barrels and expand very well at low velocities.

Home Page of Hawk Precision Bullets
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:11 AM
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Thanks for all the help, guys. My friend is recently retired so he'll have to evaluate whether or not it's worth the time and money to be able to make loads for what turns out to be an old family heirloom.

It's becoming obvious that

a) it's an obsolete and obscure cartridge but there is a 'niche' of interest out there, as in all such esoterica

b) commercial loads are likely totally out of the question

c) companies list the dies so they won't exactly be a custom proposition, but brass is not available and will have to be die formed, fire formed, and then loaded for any serious use to determine the guns' accuracy and utility.

Time and money - just like what most everything else requires. I appreciate all the references and suggestions and I'm sure he will also.
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:53 AM
walnutred walnutred is offline
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These guys claim to have reloadable brass: 338 spectre. I suspect your friend could order some loaded ammo from them, if he was willing to pay the price.
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:58 PM
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I had a “Cape Gun” chambered in 16 Ga and 8X57R360 at one time. I used it to take a nice 4X4 Black Tail in Northern California several years ago. It is in the league of the 32-40 WCF as far as power goes. Mine had a .318 bore on it. It was a fun gun but I traded it for a Win 1885 Low Wall I just had to have. As others have noted you can make the brass from 9.3X72R and also from 30-40. However the 30-40 brass had to have the rims turned. I have purchased 9.3X72R brass from Huntington’s within the past three years so check with them to see if it is still available if you want to load for it.
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