But according to Remington and all the folks they lined up on their side, there is not a problem?? So I should pay to have a problem fixed that does not exist??

I could almost guarantee that S&W would look at my SW rifle or handgun if I even thought there was a problem.

Remingtons "New web site just for the non problem"

Remington Model 700™

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Still Running Against the Wind

OCD,

Click here...

Read...

Send gun...

http://www.rifflawfirm.com/areas/pdf/remington4.pdf

Remington Model 600 | 700 Lawsuit - Riff & Associates, PC

There is a problem. All Remingtons with original Walker floating trigger connector are a potential disaster waiting to happen...

I'd never have a gun that I couldn't -- absolutely -- unload safely.

Thanks for the link: He is the "expert" that was on the CNBC report.
I'm doing something, not sure what yet, letting this play out a bit.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I just saw the show last night. I'm not defending Remington, but I got the impression there is a lot of truth to their "blaming" accusations. While I do feel bad that the nine year old boy died, his mother is just as much, and even more than, at fault as Remington. The same for the guy that shot his foot off and all the other pictures of "accidental wounds". And the "professional" police snipers looked more like morons. If your gun malfunctions you take it to a gunsmith, you don't videotape it and whine to the media about it.

The program was so obviously a case of sensationalized, liberal, anti-gun journalism, I had to change the channel.

By the way, I own four 700s and the only time I had an accidental discharge was after I worked on the triggers.

I’m unclear about the allegations regarding Remington’s use of the “Walker” trigger design on Model 700 (and perhaps other – 710?) rifles. I’m not challenging whether or not there is or was a problem with the trigger design, or whether or not Remington or anybody is at fault for the accidental discharges. At this point, I principally want to understand which guns may be affected and subject to the allegations so that I can decide my next course of action: (a) do nothing …but be mindful of a ‘potential’ danger for AD …and be very careful to regularly clean the trigger and have my gunsmith periodically examine it for wear, (b) change to an after-market trigger (Timney?) in which case, if I understand all of this, the potential problem goes away, or (c) have my gunsmith modify the trigger, if that is possible, and hope/pray that the potential problem is gone.

My understanding is that Remington changed the trigger design on the Model 700 commencing October 2006. The new trigger assembly on rifles sold in 2007 and thereafter is known as the X-Mark Pro trigger, distinguished by a smooth trigger face (no ridges) and it is purportedly non-adjustable. It appears that the allegations only pertain to the pre-2007 triggers.

***PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF THIS IS CORRECT SO FAR.***

I have a 30-06 Remington Model 700 purchased in 2007. The trigger has ridges and I suspect it may be the old design subject to the allegations. My gun’s trigger has never been adjusted (it is VERY heavy but with a clean break). I’ve been shooting it more lately and, up to this point, have planned to have my gunsmith adjust the trigger. The heavy trigger significantly impacts accuracy at 200 yards and beyond.

Now I do not know what to do. My wife is more upset than me …that ain’t good …she will find more ‘honey do’ projects to keep me away from the range.

Assuming that, sadly, my gun is of the prior design (subject to the allegations), what are my options? Can the existing trigger be modified and rendered safe? …assuming I am a safe gun handler. Will any experienced gunsmith know what to do to modify the existing trigger? What precisely are the modifications that he should perform? Must I install an after-market trigger to make the potential problem go away?

Note I said “potential” problem and “allegations”. I am not asserting that there is a problem. But I am not willing to do nothing about this.

Thanks in advance for your experienced and thoughtful comments.

Just buy an aftermarket trigger, as there are several good manufacturers. Just browse the Brownells website- Timney, Jewel, etc.

I would think the aftermarket trigger makers would start having a brisk business.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

I have a recent purchased Model 700 SPS in 30-06 and it does have the adjustable trigger. I have attempted to get it to fire by itself and so far no luck.

But I think if one never sweeps anyone with the barrel and unloads the rifle following hunting excursions you will be safe.

I have several friends with older 1970+ model 700's and they too have tested their rifles and so far no malfunctions. So I wonder if its a wear issue on the sear or something else.

I do think this news release will insure Remington owners will take notice and check their weapons carefully.

I suspect this may be a swarming of Trial Lawyers bored after attacking Toyota and getting ready for another big class action lawsuit against a rich old line company. Until there is proof of this malfunction done by an independent lab that is not in the anti-gun business, I will have trouble believing there is a valid problem and not a human involved mistake.

Just my personal opinion.

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NRA Benefactor Member

I will give you my opinion, but that is all it is. I have worked on my own 700s and few for friends but I am not a "gunsmith". If I ever say I am please call me a liar.

This applies to every firearm ever made. They are machines and they do wear. Mechanical safties have failed on numerous makes and models and are not limited to just Remingtons. I don't feel Remington is responsible for one accidental shooting that was presented on the show, it's the idiots that are too stupid or too lazy to learn that you don't point a loaded firearm at anyone or anything you don't want shot. If you drove your car toward a brick wall at 100mph, then put on the brakes just before impact only to have them fail, who is at fault? This is where the lawyerization of America has gotten out of hand. The end user of a product has the responsibility in it's use.

From what I've seen, this is where the problems start. The factory trigger has a very stiff spring, replacing it with a too light one or even lightening the original one too much allows the gun to fire by vibration alone. Your gunsmith may know more about them than I do, but if I want a lighter trigger I buy a Rifle Basix model in the weight range I want and replace the original.

And no, not every gunsmith will give you good advice on the matter. At least not every one that I knew.

I've spent a fair amount of time adjusting Remington triggers made in the last 30 or so years. I've never taken all the parts out of the housing, the construction pretty much requires you to destroy the housing pins to do so. (Edited:I had to go to my Remington parts manuals to get a better view of the trigger assembly.) The "floating" trigger connector some seem so worried about appears to connect the trigger return/tension spring to the trigger and is located by the overtravel screw. If gummed up by excessive/dried lubricants it might affect the trigger return and sear engagement. It isn't a mystery part whose function is unclear.

I deleted an explanation of how the trigger works. I will note that a technician may make the occasional adjustment mistake when assembling the housing. That doesn't make the design defective. I'll also note that the design is very forgiving so long as someone doesn't decide to "tune" the trigger, especially to weights far below the design parameters. Failure to perform routine maintenance can also contribute to problems.

I'll leave dueling memos to others. I'll admit to curiousity about the alleged differences between the two Walker trigger designs and would like to see mechanical drawings.

Go to freepatentsonline.com
enter 2514981 into the search function. It will show you the patent, with drawings of the trigger used.

If you copy and past Mr Walkers name into the search you might be able to find the other one. I have a bus to catch and don't have time.

Jellybean, thanks very much for the patent info. I did a search and if Walker did have an improvment for his original trigger in mind, there was no patent issued. The patent drawings and descriptions make the function of the trigger connector crystal clear. It fits as the parts drawings suggest it does (they show a different shape than the patent drawings), and as I thought it might, but boy, you sure can't see it without cutting the housing apart. I can see how failure to properly maintain the trigger housing could cause issues.

There is another trigger patent issued to Walker, 3075312 issued in 1960 for a set trigger, the original patent was issued in 1950. The upper portion of the set trigger mechanism looks nothing like the original Walker trigger. It does look like it might be adaptable to use as a regular trigger.

BTW, to the folks who commented upon the allegation of saving a nickle. My parts catalog dates from 1980. As close as I can estimate, what Remington got paid for a trigger assembly installed in a rifle in 1980 was about $6. Consider what it probably was in 1950 ($2.50?) . Figure also the expenses of the additional product acceptance testing, retooling for a new design, lost production and lost sales while you're building those allegedly improved triggers and the time needed to get that money back at a nickle a gun.

WR Moore, I couldn't find the other patent either.

I don't remember all the figures from the show about how much the recalls would cost per gun then, in the 70's and now, but I do remember there were something like 2,000,000 rifles that had the supposedly defective triggers in them, and that was up to the 70s as I recall, so there are a lot more now. In addition to the costs you mentioned their overall cost would include the "fix" X 2,000,000+ plus the cost of shipping the guns back and forth. I'm sure their liability insurance premiums are cheaper.

I worked for a guy that was labeled as the biggest polluter in America. The EPA fined him a lot of money for violations at one of his facilities per day. His response was to the effect that it was cheaper to pay the fines than clean up the waste and in business the bottom line is profit, not clean air or soil.

this same subject is what got me banned from the national gun forum dot com

Back when (early bronze age), our mechanical engineering professor commented that making something foolproof was no problem. But it wasn't possible to make anything damnfool proof.

Edit: A source has noted that the improvement was (may have been?) tighter QC on the trigger assembly. That wouldn't be possible to patent.

See Remington's side at Remington Model 700™, and specific rebuttals to CNBC's allegations at http://goo.gl/cXTlq

This does not address the Safety Modification Program.
To repeat, I am not questioning the trigger, I am questioning the SAFETY and Safety Modification Program, which obviously is a problem as there is a a "Program" to correct it.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I have one old Remington 700 BDL in 300 Win. Mag. that was modified by some fly-by-night hacker by the name of P.O. Ackley back in 1977-78. I don't think he did any trigger work on it except maybe an adjustment but the barrel was bored to 35 caliber, with a 1-10" twist, and re-stamped 35-300. With a really nice Fajen stock and 3-9 Redfield Royal scope it's the most expensive, most powerful and most accurate gun I own.

This gun suffered one unintended discharge in the mid-1980's. I had loaded it in the field and it went off upon closing the bolt. The trigger was not touched, no one was injured but a 275 grain Barnes bullet traveling 2800 fps leaves quite a mark on the ground. I took the gun to a gunsmith who said he cleaned and adjusted the trigger and it's never caused another problem. The sad result is that I pretty much lost interest in a very expensive gun. Now it sits unused in the back of my safe, untrusted and unloved.

Say what they will, Remington screwed the pooch on this one. These triggers should have been repaired or replaced years ago. Sooner or later they are going to get stuck for the cost.

Nor does it address the statements made or the documents written by Mr. Walker concerning the fix he designed before full production of the model 700 began, or of the failures that Consumer Reports found. The document from Remington stating that about 1% of Model 700s could be "Tricked" into firing was not addressed either.

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

Why do I envision some poor low level intern at Remington under orders to perform damage control desperately surfing the Web for discussions like this one??!!!

Glad you mentioned it as I was going to. If the poster is a rep of Remington, I think he or she should identify themselves as such.

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Still Running Against the Wind

That was mentioned on the show too. I think Remington might have opened up the tolerences to make the parts easier and cheaper to produce, thereby giving less wiggle room for home adjustments.

First of all, I would like to apologize to poster RemingtonArms for this comment and thank you for your input into this conversation.

I also don't blame Remington for doing damage control in response to the program as it was aired. There is a world of difference between an investigative news report and a liberal media attack on the gun industy. I don't expect Remingtons legal dept. will allow a full disclosure of facts due to all the law suits that have been filed. However, I don't take anything that is presented by the media as "factual" without further examination. They have an "agenda" and it's not in our best interests.

Point made. Comment removed.

I was not apologizing on your behalf, I was apologizing on behalf of all the decent members that felt your post was offensive, personal and uncalled for.

Point made. Poster read. Comment removed.

Suddenly I can see into the future...this string is going to get locked so fast it'll make your head swim.

I contacted Jack Belk directly (the individual in the news highlighting the flaw in the Remington 700 Walker trigger design) in an effort to get clarification from him on a few issues pertaining to the Remington Model 700 Walker trigger controversy. I do not know Jack Belk personally or professionally; I am not a gunsmith, engineer or a lawyer; and I’m not affiliated with the gun industry. I’m just a guy who likes to shoot but wants to be safe. I am not qualified to opine on Mr. Belk’s analysis but I believe he is sincere in his opinions and he has been straightforward and inoffensive in defending his comments and analysis about Remington’s use of the Walker trigger design.

The following are excerpts of some of his responses to me that may be helpful to some of you:

“Remington started with the XMark Pro in Oct, of '06, but there were several thousand guns on dealer's shelves and store rooms that are still being sold. You are right about the markings [the vertical grooves on the Walker trigger but not on the X-Mark Pro, the smooth trigger and the adjustment hole on the X-Mark Pro], but late XMark Pros don't have the pull adjustments. That adjustment is for only spring tension and not sear engagement. The spring is pre-loaded to the safe setting and the screw only increases it.”

“All Walker designs, no matter the age, [have] the connector defect in them. The earlier the trigger the more additional defects were possible in them. Folded housings and dual sears triggers with lock down safeties were the worst of the lot.”

“The X-Mark Pro has a solid, one-piece trigger and the safety pushes the trigger back into engagement with the sear every time it's actuated, so 'no' the XMark Pro cannot FSR unless the trigger is pulled OR there is a failure of a part.”

I hope this helps somebody out there.

My piece of mind is worth a lot to me. Whether or not the Walker design is flawed, I’m going to follow the advice of others …I’m simply going to buy a ‘quality’ after-market trigger. Any suggestions? Does Remington separately sell the X-Mark Pro trigger and would it be compatible with my 2006 Remington production rifle with the Walker trigger?

Safety Modification Program- this dealt with the original version of the Walker trigger assembly. Starting with the '98 Mauser (possibly before) it was deemed a good thing for the safety to lock the bolt in addition to disabling the firing mechanism. This prevented the bolt handle from rotating out of the fully locked position which could possibly prevent firing in a life threatening situation. Virtually all bolt action rifles followed this pattern.

When telescopic sights became more common, the original safeties either had to be expensively modified or scopes mounted very high to clear the safeties. After market triggers with safeties were developed and sold to remedy this problem. However, many omitted the middle position of the original Mauser safety, which disabled the firing mechanism but allowed bolt manipulation. Remingtons Walker tirigger followed this pattern, having no middle position. At the time, this was not regarded as a safety issue. Look at the 1911 pattern pistol as an example: people were expected to be bright enough to keep their fingers off the trigger when manipulating the firing mechanism.

The Remington safety modification program was the result of a lawsuit where some idiot managed to fire a round while manipulating the bolt. It became generally recognized that now, having the safety remain engaged while allowing bolt manipulation was a good thing. I'm not sure that allowing a critter to do the rifle owner in is a good thing if the bolt was moved out of position, but it appears the lesser evil to attorneys.

So: all the safety modification does is remove the bolt lock. I'll keep mine, thank you very much.

If someone is just distraught enough about possible issues, the Shilen replacement trigger is supposed to be very good. You do have to reuse the Remington safety parts. I'll offer a good home to orphan trigger assemblies.

BTW, while Mike Walker has a reputation as a really nice guy, does everyone realize he's not exactly a disinterested party in this soap opera?

UGlide, thanks for the post. I'm always leary of news reports quoting people to back up their story, thanks to the art of editing. Our local paper is famous for quoting things that were never said.

Not only that, he seemed to like the media attention he was getting and sounded like he might be a little too proud of himself.

Around '84-'86, when I was working the sporting goods counter at a hardware store, I was handed a case of .22LR semi auto rifles to sell. Iver Johnson had bought out a small gun manufacturer in Canada and these rifles were "remaining stock" of a model the IJ wasn't going to continue making. They had no safeties on them at all! While nobody would buy a gun that had no saftey, they jumped all over them when I gave them away. And, to the best of my knowledge, they never killed anyone accidentally. Times have changed.

Well, I used my only power as a customer/customer today.

Due to Remingtons lack of response to my e mails, I sold my 700, 30-06. I was not about to spend the money on sending it to them nor buying a aftermarket trigger. It was a beautiful rifle with the jeweled bolt and fancy walnut.

Maybe there is a problem with the trigger/safety maybe not, but there are too many other brands to choose from and not worry about it.

I can buy a CZ, Savage, Weatherby or any number of guns. I doubt Remington will be on my short list of any future purchases.

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Still Running Against the Wind

That seems a little bit hasty. I've got four of them, one of which is a 1965 model, none of which has ever caused a problem.

I think I'll just wait and see.

Since 1980 I have bought, shot, fiddled with, enjoyed, sold, etc. about 100 Rem. 700 rifles. I have always done my own trigger jobs and have not in any instance ever had a single rifle give me a single solitary problem of any sort. I have had the get bumped, fall off the side of a table, get dropped from a tree stand, etc. Some were empty, but sometimes the person who did the dropping, bumping, etc. did so with a loaded rifle. Not one single rifle ever "went off" by itself. Not one single rifle "fired" even when subjected to drops that sheared off scope mounts. Now, the triggers on these rifles were the standard type triggers that Remington put on their 700 series rifles. I have a nice ca. 1985 left-handed Rem. 700 LH in .30-06 that has fired a wheelbarrow load of assorted factory and handloaded ammo in the 25 years I've owned it. It has been carried anywhere one might go hunting and it has never had to fire but one shot at any animal I ever used it on. Of course I was always ready with a follow up shot, but I call this rifle "Thumper" for a reason... it just knocks everything down and so far nothing has ever stood back up. The trigger is a plain Rem. trigger with the grooved trigger blade, etc. If Rem. triggers are so problematic, then somewhere in the last 30 years I do think I would have had at least some hint of a bit of a problem with at least one of the many many Rem. rifles I've had my hands on. Now I'm not saying about anyone else. But, I am saying that it's going to take a lot more than some clap trap from a msm broadcaster to change my mind. Now someone may think I'm running a risk. I will confess that I am not a member of the Chicken Little club. JMHO.

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<><

Perhaps, but I still did not like the load/unloading with the rifle in the fire or "unsafe condition" The rifle was not used much and can use the money for other "toys" that I will shoot more often and have confidence in.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I have owned this model 700 since 1979. Carried it in all kinds of weather, conditions and it is the most accurate rifle in my arsenal. Will consistently shoot 1/2 MOA all day long with hand loads.
On Saturday evening, when I started to break stand, I was going to unload the rifle, as I usually do before climbing down. When I pushed off the safety, the gun discharged. My fingers were no where near the trigger, as I was/have been cognizant of the alleged issues with the rifle discharging without the trigger being pulled. The rifle was pointed upward at an angle and there is no habitation within 3 miles or so of where I was, but still what goes up must come down. Even so, my nerves were frazzled! I'm no novice shooter, with over 50 years trigger time and no AD/ND issues.
I sent Remington a very terse note this morning demanding they recall the rifle and install the three position safety/trigger system they now use at their expense. I also mentioned that I had forwarded a copy of my correspondence to my personal attorney indicating I have put them on notice of the incident. I'm not going to use either of my Remington rifles again until/unless I get the satisfaction I want from them. Lest someone wants to flame me about poor gun handling, etc. I can assure you that is not, in any shape, form or fashion the case. I shudder to think of those idiots who use their riflescopes instead of binoculars to track game, humans, vehicles, etc. with a chambered round. And, no one expects a rifle or any other weapon to discharge when releasing the safety.

That would have scared me to death. I would be very interested in Remington's reply to you. Their reply to me was just a bunch of "corporate speak"

Here is Remingtons response to my inquiry as to what they would do with my 700.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Idausmc1369, I'm not going to question your gun handling skills, the best shooters I've ever seen were from Kentucky, but I would like to ask you a question. If you don't want to answer it due to your attorneys involvement I would fully understand.

Over the last 30 or so years, how often did you check, or have checked by a gunsmith, the trigger on your rifle for any defects, changes in trigger pull or even general cleaning/maintanance issues?

You will not question his gun handling skills but will question his maintenance?? Not a whole lot of difference.

But I guess it does not matter as there is no problem with the older 700's.
I am not basing this on some lame TV show, but there has been more than a few discharges of the 700.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I will state, unequivocally, that the trigger mechanism has been cleaned with GunBlaster or some like product and then blown out with compressed air at least biannually or, if exposed to adverse weather conditions, i.e. rain, sleet, snow, dust, etc., on an as needed basis. There is no lack of maintenance involved in this instance. I was taught from an early age to care for your weapons before you care for yourself. The USMC further reinforced this mindset. Furthermore, the trigger has never been subjected to any outside influences, ie. bubba gunsmithing or otherwise. It is pure stock. The damned rifle discharged when I released the safety, pure and simple. No exogenous influences otherwise!

A few years I ago. I made the mistake of buying Remington bolt action 223 at Bass Pro. I can not remember the model number but it was not a 700. I did not have it long enough to even enter it in my record books or take a picture of it. I believe it was made in Turkey. It was on sale and had a rebate so I figured hey a cheapo Remington to target shoot.

I cleaned it and went to the range. I shot a few rounds and then reloaded. I went to push the bolt forward to load a round and it went off! Scared me to death, thank God it was pointing down range.

I packed up and drove back to Bass Pro (a very long drive) I was fuming. They saw how upset I was and started to say "we will send it back to Remington" but I said no way.

They apologized and gave me a full refund.

I wish I had the paper work to recall the Model number. But I mention this only to say IT can happen.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Idausmc1369, thanks for the response. I'm just trying to get as much information as I can before I make any final judgements.