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  #1  
Old 02-01-2011, 06:07 PM
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Default Krags in WW1?

The other night I was watching a special on the Yankee Division in WW1 and they had a lot of original film footage in the show. In one scene they show three US infantrymen in a shell hole and it looks for all the world like one is firing a Krag. I suspect this is actually film of a National Guard Unit training stateside. However, I've read that some of the earliest US troops to get deployed took their NG rifles over but traded them for French rifles when they got there due to logistics.

Has anyone heard of Krags actually seeing combat in WW1?
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:22 PM
The Last Standing Knight The Last Standing Knight is offline
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Default Remember the M1903 wasn't the only rifle we used in WWI

The M1917 Enfield was out there, too.
Probably quite a few Krags out there, too. Probably in use by both support troops and reserve units.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:32 PM
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AFAIK any Krags, along with the Ross rifles we bought for training and all other non-standard rifles stayed stateside. I have seen a picture of US Navy personnel armed with Krags, the caption said they were at one of the training centers. Taking firearms using anything other than the standard 30/06 round would have been a logistical headache and a problem they would have avoided.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:34 PM
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You have to look closely, because the U.S. used Mannlicher Berthiers and Mosin-Nagants in WWI.

Black troops assigned to French commands used Berthiers.

U.S. troops stationed in Russia used Mosin-Nagants.

Krags were used in WWII, both by the Germans, who captured them in Scandinavia, and by puppet Philippine troops controlled by the Japanese.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:46 PM
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"Krags were used in WWII...by the Germans"



That's true...Sgt Shultz carried one at Stalag 13.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:48 PM
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My understanding is that Krags were widely used as National Guard arms, and also for training when 1903s and 1917s were not available. I really doubt that any went overseas during WWI, as ammunition logistics would have been a rough thing.

As a side note, I have pictures of my dad in high school ROTC; their training rifles were Krags. He graduated from HS in 1928.

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Old 02-01-2011, 07:08 PM
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"Krags were used in WWII...by the Germans"



That's true...Sgt Shultz carried one at Stalag 13.
John Banner was actually Jewish , as were most of the cast who played Nazis in Hogans Heros. Supposedly , he refused to carry Nazi weapons.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:11 PM
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I have several boxes of USGI ammo headstamped FA 17 and RA 18.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:30 PM
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I had to see it to believe it:



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Old 02-01-2011, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by PALADIN85020 View Post
My understanding is that Krags were widely used as National Guard arms, and also for training when 1903s and 1917s were not available. I really doubt that any went overseas during WWI, as ammunition logistics would have been a rough thing.

As a side note, I have pictures of my dad in high school ROTC; their training rifles were Krags. He graduated from HS in 1928.

John
A guy I used to know in FidoNet told me the following story. I have no reason to doubt him.

Preparatory to the "Torch" landings a National Guard unit was embarking on a troop ship. I think they were from Minnesota.

A regular Army officer was taking the count as they went up the gang plank when he noticed that one of them was carrying a "funny" rifle. On closer examination, the rifle turned out to be a Trapdoor Springfield. Then the OIC noticed that they ALL had Trapdoors. Astonished, the OIC stopped the boarding to investigate.

One of the members of the unit was questioned as to why they were carrying "antiques". Apparently, they didn't have any confidence in the Krags that shot those "little" bullets, and kept their Trapdoors. After the Krags, they'd never been issued anything else.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:01 PM
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A guy I used to know in FidoNet told me the following story. I have no reason to doubt him.

Preparatory to the "Torch" landings a National Guard unit was embarking on a troop ship. I think they were from Minnesota.

A regular Army officer was taking the count as they went up the gang plank when he noticed that one of them was carrying a "funny" rifle. On closer examination, the rifle turned out to be a Trapdoor Springfield. Then the OIC noticed that they ALL had Trapdoors. Astonished, the OIC stopped the boarding to investigate.

One of the members of the unit was questioned as to why they were carrying "antiques". Apparently, they didn't have any confidence in the Krags that shot those "little" bullets, and kept their Trapdoors. After the Krags, they'd never been issued anything else.
I would find this highly unlikely. By the time of Operation TORCH in November, 1942, it is highly unlikely that any Springfield Trapdoors would be in available to units, National Guard or otherwise. Also by then, the Krag was also declared obsolete and not considered a substitute standard weapon. I've never heard of an American unit taking any Krags overseas during WWII.

Interesting story though.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:20 PM
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The M1917 Enfield was out there, too.
Probably quite a few Krags out there, too. Probably in use by both support troops and reserve units.
Overseas the M1917 was the standard issue for US combat troops because of production capability of US factories. The Springfield Arsenal simply could not keep up with wartime demand. Though we tend to think of the '03 as the main rifle in WW1 it was actually substitute standard.

The ammo issue is why I suspect that it was actually stateside training footage used in the documentary.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:50 PM
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At Lowry AFB, CO in the mid -1960's, an airman brought me a Krag that he had found on the grounds. I was an Air Force cop working a gate at the time.

I was the only one in my unit who knew what it was.

Turned out to have been lost by a high school ROTC unit earlier that year. Puzzles me why it took several months to turn up...but it was a Krag, the long infantry pattern.

My own HS ROTC unit in Texas had fairly current arms of the day, primarily the M-1 rifle. Cadet officers had M-1 carbines, and we had some BAR's for instructional use.

I think the Krag was used by a color guard at some ceremony. The guy who found it said there was no ammo, which was logical in the circumstances. I doubt that the cadets who carried them ever fired one.

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Old 02-02-2011, 12:22 AM
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The last lot of 30-40 ammunition ordered by the Govenment was in 1918, from Remington. I suspect a lot of Krags were used in training in the US.

Government firearms tend to hang around a while. The father of a friend of mine went through ROTC around 1915. His drill rifle; a 50-70 Trapdoor, model 1868. I've seen it.
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:41 AM
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My American Legion Post used Krags for parade and funerals until 1991, when we switched to Garands. Everyone liked the Krags but in 1990 the Government informed us they had finally ran out of 30-40 blank ctgs.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:58 AM
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My college ROTC detachment (Westminster, now gone ) used dewatted O3-A3s for local field exercises.

All of the ROTC detachments in the area had to share the local Missouri Army National Guard MP battalion's M-16A1s for blank firing on exercises, so we used the Springfields when we stayed in town.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:07 AM
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I would find this highly unlikely. By the time of Operation TORCH in November, 1942, it is highly unlikely that any Springfield Trapdoors would be in available to units, National Guard or otherwise. Also by then, the Krag was also declared obsolete and not considered a substitute standard weapon. I've never heard of an American unit taking any Krags overseas during WWII.

Interesting story though.
If they were never turned in, I'm sure they'd be available. I don't think they ever actually used Krags, even if they were issued.

I don't know if you were ever on active duty, but you find VERY strange things in units that nobody cares about.

I was in 1/31 Infantry (M) at Camp Howze, ROK in '80 and '81. When I got there, the supply sergeant called the Chemical Center to find out what to do with the chemical vessicant(?) mixture he had on hand in a huge stack of bags that looked like bags of cement. This stuff was meant to be boiled in a 55gal. drum to produce a tar like substance into which your fatigues were meant to be dipped to make them "impervious" to chemical agents. The Chemical Center as much as called him a liar when he reported what he had. I had just come from the Infantry Officer's Basic Course and no such thing was even MENTIONED to us.

We also had on hand, infra-red binoculars, something also NEVER mentioned, either in ROTC or IOBC.

And on a collector's note, I had a Union Switch & Signal marked M1911A1 in my arms room when I was XO of a Basic Training company at Ft. Knox after I returned from Korea.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:21 PM
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1899 40 or so Volunteer Regiments were formed to fight in the Philippines-45-70 Springfields and Krags issued-by 1910 these units had been demobilized-but the Army, a fraction of it's 1899-1902 size was issuing the 3006 Springfield- of course WW1 caught us flat footed-rapid mobilization resulted in Krags, even 45-70s being issued-arrival in France meant a logistical nightmare for ammunition-when feasible allied weapons were issued-American industry was just catching up at wars end-demobilization again eroded the Army to the extent that our enemies took advantage of our weaknesses. We started WW2 with two horse Cavalry Divisions, training with obsolete weapons-National Guard units using Krags in some cases.
After the first Gulf war the Army preached "no more Task Force Smith"and cut out a Corps plus-now they're looking at cutting the military again-in the middle of two wars no less. The M4 is an excellent weapon-will it be out of date when we start fighting the next bad actor???
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:04 PM
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The M4 is an excellent weapon-will it be out of date when we start fighting the next bad actor???
The M-16 series is shaping up to be the Brown Bess of the U.S. military. As dreadfully unsuccessful as the U.S. Army has been at replacing it, the M-16 could conceivably see a hundred years of active service.
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:28 PM
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The M-16 series is shaping up to be the Brown Bess of the U.S. military. As dreadfully unsuccessful as the U.S. Army has been at replacing it, the M-16 could conceivably see a hundred years of active service.
Now if we could just get the Army to return to the old policy of allowing service members to purchase their issue weapon upon discharge.......
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:35 PM
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Now if we could just get the Army to return to the old policy of allowing service members to purchase their issue weapon upon discharge.......
I wouldn't have wanted any of the M-16A1s I ever saw while on active duty.

I wouldn't have minded having that Union Switch & Signal M-1911A1 though.
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:54 PM
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The M-16 series is shaping up to be the Brown Bess of the U.S. military.
I know what you're saying, but the M-16 series is more like the Black Betty of the U.S. military.
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Old 02-02-2011, 03:21 PM
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I wouldn't have wanted any of the M-16A1s I ever saw while on active duty.

I wouldn't have minded having that Union Switch & Signal M-1911A1 though.
Our Headquarters Battery had 5, consecutive serial numbered, Remington 1911A1s. I tried every thing I could think of to legally become the owner of those pistols. Even offered to do a Report of Survey on myself and reimburse the government the value of the pistols shown on the Battery Property Book. The Government only valued them at $55 each, but that is beside the point.

I actually even considered calling Essex and seeing of they would have made five frames with those serial numbers.
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Old 02-02-2011, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
I don't know if you were ever on active duty, but you find VERY strange things in units that nobody cares about.
Navy in the late '60's early '70's I went to the armory on base to check out a .22 target pistol for league. The normal "check-outs" at that time were either High Standards or Model 41's (depending on how lucky you were.)
Anyway, the armorer handed me a Colt Target Woodsman, 1st Model, complete with the elephant ear stocks. When I made comment, he said he had 10 of them in the vault, all with USN Property marks. I was tempted to "lose" it and just pay for it, but I figured it wouldn't help my career much.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:37 PM
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As midshipmen in the Navy/Marine unit at Auburn University in the early 1970s, tennexplorer and I used 1903 and 1903A3 Springfields as drill rifles. They were missing the firing pins and the front sights.

When we Marine types did field problems, we borrowed M14s from the Army ROTC unit. The one I used had the full auto switch.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:35 PM
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As has already been mentioned in an earlier post, the M1917 Enfield equipped 75% of our troops in WW1 because production at the Springfield and Rock Island government plants were woefully slow. Remington, on the other hand, could crank them out three times as fast, and was already set up to produce them, having just completed a contract for England of Endfield M1914's. Caliber change from .303 to .30-06 was a snap. And, yes, the Army bought 20,000 Ross rifles from Canada for training to free up service rifles to equip troops headed for overseas. I have a U.S. stamped Ross and it is so cool to shoot.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:58 PM
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Remington, on the other hand, could crank them out three times as fast, and was already set up to produce them, having just completed a contract for England of Endfield M1914's. Caliber change from .303 to .30-06 was a snap.
Not entirely correct.

The 1917 was produced by Remington , Eddystone (a plant in PA owned by Remington) and Winchester.

If ya read the books on the 1917 , there were a number of problems in getting the 1917 rifle production acceptable to the US Ordnance Board officers. Parts interchangablity was a major problem the first year. Not only between makers , but within. American Ordnance demanded much tighter tolerances and quality control than the Brits did. The first 50,000 Winchester rifles delivered were so off spec , that they were marked with a circled star on the receiver , and were not to be issued to troops heading overseas. The ejector was poorly designed and a major weak point as they broke frequently and new ones were not 'drop-in'. The sight were not well liked by troops who trained with the 1903 Springfields fine target style sights and then got to Europe , only to be issued 1917s with the excellent , but unfamiliar peep sights. The rifle was somewhat bigger and a pound heavier. It was a good rifle , but really didn't find acceptance with those who were trained with the 1903 Springfield.

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Old 02-05-2011, 12:27 AM
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I think it was the ejector spring that often broke, not the ejector itself. It was a two pronged spring, if I remember rightly.
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Old 02-05-2011, 09:00 AM
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Krags saw very little use overseas during WWI. There is a recorded account early in the US involvement of the war. I don't have my info in front of me right now but Krags were fired in anger by US troops. If memory serves me right it was a signal company that was laying down wire. Rear area troops had them to free up new rifles. Now once again this is early in our involvement. Wincester 1894s also saw limited action. At first by Pilots and some rear area troops. Most of them are called "Spruce" Winchesters due to being issued to US Army Corps of Engineers. They were logging near Canada.
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Old 02-06-2011, 03:26 AM
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Krags were still turning up in U.S. Navy ships in service in the Far East (gunboats in China and such) as late as the 1930s. Some were apparently still floating around in U.S. Navy stores in the Pacific when WW2 began. Of course they still had plenty of cutlasses ready in WW2 as well....

There's no reason that a German Luftwaffe guard at a POW camp couldn't have had a Krag. Plenty were captured from the Danes and Norwegians and used for rear area and security troops. Hence Sgt. Schultz's weapon wasn't much of a stretch. It was there probably because it was what was available in the prop room.

With the National Guard... who knows. There were National Guard units in the 1980s that still had M1 rifles and others that had 1919A4s for machine guns while being issued M16A1s. M3 Grease guns meanwhile were still issued to armored vehicle crews in Desert Storm.
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:11 AM
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I think it was the ejector spring that often broke, not the ejector itself. It was a two pronged spring, if I remember rightly.
The ejector and it's spring were made from one piece. A thin sliver was cut and bent to form the spring. Yes , the spring part broke off.
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Old 02-06-2011, 11:13 AM
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On another board someone posted a photo of a U.S. unit standing in ranks in England in World War 1. They are all armed with Krags.
I have looked but can't make out any unit patches.
I will post the web address if I can find the photo on my computer.
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Old 02-06-2011, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mkk41 View Post
The ejector and it's spring were made from one piece. A thin sliver was cut and bent to form the spring. Yes , the spring part broke off.
Back in the '90s, I picked up a P-14 at the PGCA show for a friend here. The thing was in EXCELLENT condition... except for the missing ejector that I didn't notice. I went to the OGCA show to get him an ejector. I couldn't find one but a guy had a P-14 action. I asked him if he'd sell the ejector. He made a counter offer of the whole thing for not much more than the ejector. Now my friend has an ejector and I have a sporterized P-14 action that might some day end up as a hunting rifle.

BTW - My friend's P-14 is EXTREMELY accurate, out to 600 yards with Greek ball.
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colt, ejector, krag, m1917, military, model 16, model 1917, model 41, ogca, remington, sig arms, springfield, trapdoor, winchester, woodsman, wwi, wwii

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