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  #51  
Old 02-27-2012, 05:08 PM
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Just finished reading a interesting article on Khyber Pass region firearms "manufacture" in the January 1954 issue of American Rifleman.

The author notes that at that time the revolvers were made so that the frame and barrel were of a piece, and were patterned after the Webley, with no mention of any S&W copies.

I'm still thinking this is of Chinese origin....
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  #52  
Old 02-27-2012, 05:15 PM
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Question What!!??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goony View Post
Cannot rule out Kashmir, for sure.
What does a sweater have to do with any of this??
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  #53  
Old 02-27-2012, 06:15 PM
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The markings at the top of the barrel look alot like what they show as glyphs on the Roswell spaceship. Maybe this things comes from a little farther away then we think?
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  #54  
Old 02-27-2012, 06:21 PM
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Peoples Republic of Giberia, it is obviously in Gibberish, a lot of Gibberians have become politicians. You may get a congressman to translate.
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:40 PM
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Something else to add to this.

Don't know where I got this pic from, but it is (supposedly) a Philippine Smith copy atop a real Smith. Looking at the copy, here, the shape of the grip is totally different. I'm kinda agreein' with "Khyber Pass".
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  #56  
Old 02-27-2012, 06:59 PM
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I'm going with Babylon. It kind of has that early Persian look.
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  #57  
Old 02-27-2012, 07:08 PM
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Nice patina.
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  #58  
Old 02-27-2012, 07:21 PM
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If you don't have much in it send it back to S&W and tell them you want an action job and flat blue refinish.
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  #59  
Old 02-27-2012, 07:33 PM
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can you post a photo of the logo closeup on the side of the frame?? be interesting to have a close look at that too...if you can.
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  #60  
Old 02-27-2012, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linde View Post
Examine the logo, medallions and ejector rod tip very carefully . . . I don't believe it's an S&W.

Russ
I would agree with you - not a Smith.

Pete
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  #61  
Old 02-27-2012, 11:55 PM
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I'll go along with Chinese manufacture. I've seen a lot of pictures (never handled one) of Chinese copies of the Browning M 1900 that had markings very similiar to those. The markings make me think China.
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  #62  
Old 02-28-2012, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post
I've seen a lot of pictures (never handled one) of Chinese copies of the Browning M 1900 that had markings very similiar to those.
Like this one?
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File Type: jpg CFN1900M.jpg (68.8 KB, 183 views)
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  #63  
Old 02-28-2012, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goony View Post
Like this one?
They obviously got the bit about "Nationale" but maybe "Fabrique" means something unpleasant in Chinese so they skipped it.
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  #64  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:07 AM
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Several years ago, a buddy and I found a C-96 Broomhandle Mauser for sale at a gun show. It looked okay, but something just wasn't right about it. I finally figured out it was a Chinese copy because it was marked "Wauser" instead of Mauser. My buddy thought it was so funny he couldn't quit laughing, and we almost got into a fight with the owner. That's about as close as I ever got to owning a "Wauser" - surprisingly, the workmanship was pretty good, but I would have been afraid to shoot it.

Regards,

Dave
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  #65  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goony View Post
Perhaps a look at the markings atop the barrel will resolve the mystery....

Last word of the inscription may be a clue. "Batuni" is a town/village in the Himachal Pradesh province of India, about 7 miles west of Dharamsala. It is close enough that it may be within the area where firearms attributed to the "Khyber Pass" come from. Batuni is located at coordinates: 3218'13"N 7612'25"E. Google Earth will get you close enough to find it.
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  #66  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:37 AM
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I think you pinned it. Vice travel I believe visited some similar or near by areas here. First area that came to my mind.
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  #67  
Old 02-28-2012, 04:34 AM
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You guys are all wrong.. That was "definately" Tontos sidearm
on the old Lone Ranger series.


So you see it was a Native American firearm all along.
And i thought you guys was good....

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  #68  
Old 02-28-2012, 04:35 AM
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That's odd.........it looks an awful lot like a Taurus I used to have................
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  #69  
Old 02-28-2012, 05:23 AM
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Aha! That is a very rare Smitsky & Wessonski pre-lock, pre-Model 9 1/2, Militia & Peasant revolutionary revolving Purge Pistol fabricated by craftsmen housed in a Siberian Gulag, with a shipping date of May Day, 1949. It is a Presentation Grade, which is readily apparent from the high quality of bluing, far superior to the standard grade guns. This may, in fact, be the gun presented to the Chief of the Politburo on the occasion if his retirement, and may have been used to permanently retire him. It appears to be completely original, with matching serial numbers throughout. The commemorative inscription on the barrel confirms my analysis, which would be borne out by a factory letter, but the waiting time to receive one is extremely lengthy, as Boris and Natasha must obtain top secret approval to research the scrolls from Mister Big, who generally frowns on disclosing State secrets. If you have the original brown paper bag it was shipped in (numbered to the gun in a blood, of course), and the original takedown tool/Borscht spoon (again, numbered to the gun), I would think it should bring a pretty penny (maybe even two or three) from an astute collector on one of the internet auction sites. Congratulations on your find!
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  #70  
Old 02-28-2012, 10:15 AM
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Hi:
Over the years I have come across S&W copies from various parts of the world. One question was always on my mind: Why not copy a "Colt" as there is no forward locking lug on the barrel and fewer parts?

Another question on a S&W: is the forward locking lug manufactured as a part of the barrel or is it installed after the barrel is manufactured?
Thanks,
Jimmy
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  #71  
Old 02-28-2012, 11:04 AM
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Get it lettered.
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  #72  
Old 02-28-2012, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pote View Post
can you post a photo of the logo closeup on the side of the frame?? be interesting to have a close look at that too...if you can.
Happy to oblige....

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  #73  
Old 02-28-2012, 02:42 PM
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Its a shame that is not 99.9999% original with the original serialized box documents and tools.

With that said it has NO COLLECTOR value and is only a shooter....













Oh come on someone had to say it




Actually its a very interesting piece!!

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  #74  
Old 02-28-2012, 03:32 PM
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It's from the Klingon Empire.
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  #75  
Old 02-28-2012, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
Last word of the inscription may be a clue. "Batuni" is a town/village in the Himachal Pradesh province of India, about 7 miles west of Dharamsala. It is close enough that it may be within the area where firearms attributed to the "Khyber Pass" come from.
Wow - that seems beyond any mere coincidence, and you're correct, this is not so far removed from the Khyber Pass region. Also, Himachal Pradesh borders Kashmir to the north, an area I had mentioned earlier in this thread as another possible place where this revolver may have been made. Himachal Pradesh adjoins China on the east as well. Earlier in this thread I had argued that the apparently genuine S&W medallions set into the stocks argued for Chinese origin as there were so many real S&W's imported there, but given the geographic proximity, they certainly could've migrated to Batuni for use in fabricating this copy.

However, the photo is a bit deceptive, for in looking at the actual markings with a magnifier, it's pretty evident to me that the apparent "U" there is in fact an "O" (albeit not well struck). Nevertheless, in the absence of any other evidence, Batuni in Himachal Pradesh, India would now seem to have moved to the top spot as the most likely source of this piece.

Incidentally, the meaning in English of the Hindi word "batuni" ( बातूनी ) happens to be "gasbag'" - what a lovely name to give your community.

Added note: In case any of you were wondering, "batoni" (ბატონი) is "lord" or "master" in Georgian.
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  #76  
Old 02-29-2012, 12:58 AM
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I think I need my Ovaltine decoder.
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  #77  
Old 02-29-2012, 03:49 AM
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A dsexylci gumkaner frmo Gbgaas. Trehse a syotr in tehre shweroeme.
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  #78  
Old 02-29-2012, 02:03 PM
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Happy to oblige....

wow...that's amazing. thanks.
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:25 PM
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It's obviously a copy of a copy.
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:10 PM
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What ever it's nationality, it was rode hard & put away wet.
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:02 PM
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Default Medallions

One thing I've been presuming all along with this revolver is that the grip medallions were pirated but actual S&W material, and I had been thinking that simply because the logo is so well rendered compared to all the obviously fraudulent markings everywhere else on the gun. Also contributing to my evaluation was that they are evidently made of plated brass, which seemed overkill for use on a gun like this.

I have now really examined these medallions, and am no longer so sure of my original thesis as regards their origin. I've compared them with genuine stock medallions from all eras in my possession, and while the style of those vary through time, none are quite an exact match. One notable aspect of the ones on the fake gun is that there is no texture in the background field whatsoever, and another questionable characteristic is that the upper central "wishbone" shaped device (which is perhaps a highly styled ampersand) does not have the upper loop of the "S" passing through its apex aperture as is usual, plus the two arms flowing down are truncated.

Thoughts on this? Are they just as phony as the gun itself?
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  #82  
Old 02-29-2012, 06:35 PM
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I don' know about the grip markings; I'd think that if they could conunterfeit the medallions, they'd have also put a S&W logo on the frame, and copied the markings. I assume they had a real S&W to copy from, since they imitated the lines so exactly. Perhaps they were illiterate and didn't realize the significance of those funny little squiggles stamped into the steel.

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Old 03-04-2012, 01:13 PM
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I don' know about the grip markings; I'd think that if they could conunterfeit the medallions, they'd have also put a S&W logo on the frame, and copied the markings. I assume they had a real S&W to copy from, since the imitated the lines so exactly. Perhaps they were illiterate and didn't realize the significance of those funny little squiggles stamped into the steel.
Or the medallion maker was one of several who had a hand in the fabricating of revolvers like this one (a subcontractor, possibly, if it's even reasonable to speak in those terms regarding this sort of gunmaking) whose craftsmanship and ability to accurately reproduce a pattern was superior to that of the rest.
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goony View Post
Perhaps a look at the markings atop the barrel will resolve the mystery....

In the second line, about a third of the way over to the right, shouldn't there be an apostrophe ?
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  #85  
Old 03-04-2012, 06:54 PM
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Goony,

Obviously this is going downhill really quickly, unfortunately.

Back to Batuni. I would say that this is the correct interpretation of the "U", as the tops of the "legs" are even with the tops of the adjacent letters, and even with each other, unlike what would be the case if this was really a broken "O" letter stamp. I had already considered that possibility.

Notwithstanding slight tipping and slightly unequal size of characters, none-the-less, whoever applied them was quite a careful workman to get such long lines so even as they are!
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
Goony,Obviously this is going downhill really quickly, unfortunately.

Back to Batuni. I would say that this is the correct interpretation of the "U", as the tops of the "legs" are even with the tops of the adjacent letters, and even with each other, unlike what would be the case if this was really a broken "O" letter stamp. I had already considered that possibility.

Notwithstanding slight tipping and slightly unequal size of characters, none-the-less, whoever applied them was quite a careful workman to get such long lines so even as they are!
As I had said, the previously posted photo is deceiving in this regard. Here's another in which it's more obvious that the character is a unevenly struck "O" but an "O" nonetheless (I had to get the lighting just right to clearly show this).

I think your Batuni theory still has some merit, and that nothing better has yet been put forward in this thread, even if the "evidence" is a bit compromised now.

As for the thread going downhill, as you put it, I'm okay with folks poking a little fun at this gun, for my original intent was to tantalize and amuse as much as anything else. I do wish, though, that some of the "experts" here would weigh in on the issue of the stock medallions I raised a few posts back.
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  #87  
Old 03-04-2012, 08:28 PM
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As I had said, the previously posted photo is deceiving in this regard. Here's another in which it's more obvious that the character is a unevenly struck "O" but an "O" nonetheless (I had to get the lighting just right to clearly show this).

I think your Batuni theory still has some merit, and that nothing better has yet been put forward in this thread, even if the "evidence" is a bit compromised now.

As for the thread going downhill, as you put it, I'm okay with folks poking a little fun at this gun, for my original intent was to tantalize and amuse as much as anything else. I do wish, though, that some of the "experts" here would weigh in on the issue of the stock medallions I raised a few posts back.
Interesting, is is clearly an "O" in that photo. Odd that the original was so misleading.

As for the medallions. While obviously not S&W they show quite a high degree of workmanship that is unexpected when the rest of the markings on the gun are so lacking. Honestly, If I could get some as good as these appear to be I wouldn't hesitate to use them in stocks intended for a real S&W. as long as it was clear they were after-market.
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  #88  
Old 07-30-2012, 05:41 PM
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Default I have a similar gun I need identified

It is very shiny like a nickel (little blackening in some areas). on one side of the barrel says 38 LONG CTG then it has a Lion, next to that is a Crest with an X in the middle with crown on top next to that is another Lion. Above the both of those are P.N

On top of barrel says: USE U.S. STANDARD AMMUNITION
the other side of barrel says: GUARANTEED NEW 1926 MODEL

On the cylinder is another Lion
Inside the cylinder is the numbers 3 4 twice

Under the grip on the butt is: B.G. in an oval with numbers next to it reading 8498

The other side is stamped Made in Spain

I have searched everywhere and cannot find the same exact one-similar but not the same. (Has no makers mark , i.e. Eibar etc).
I will post pictures if needed
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Old 07-30-2012, 06:19 PM
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Quote:

As for the thread going downhill, as you put it, I'm okay with folks poking a little fun at this gun, for my original intent was to tantalize and amuse as much as anything else. I do wish, though, that some of the "experts" here would weigh in on the issue of the stock medallions I raised a few posts back.
Perhaps the medallions are poorly done castings, using originals to make an impression in clay or some such. That might account for the general accuracy but lack of fine detail.
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Old 07-30-2012, 07:55 PM
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It is very shiny like a nickel (little blackening in some areas). on one side of the barrel says 38 LONG CTG then it has a Lion, next to that is a Crest with an X in the middle with crown on top next to that is another Lion. Above the both of those are P.N

On top of barrel says: USE U.S. STANDARD AMMUNITION
the other side of barrel says: GUARANTEED NEW 1926 MODEL

On the cylinder is another Lion
Inside the cylinder is the numbers 3 4 twice

Under the grip on the butt is: B.G. in an oval with numbers next to it reading 8498

The other side is stamped Made in Spain

I have searched everywhere and cannot find the same exact one-similar but not the same. (Has no makers mark , i.e. Eibar etc).
I will post pictures if needed
First off, welcome to the forum. Pictures would be very helpful in identifying your gun, if it is at all possible to do so. If you can, post them to the following thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/...ts-see-em.html
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  #91  
Old 07-30-2012, 08:11 PM
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Goony, since this thread has now been resurrected, I'm curious...just what "caliber" does this thing fire???


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  #92  
Old 07-30-2012, 08:31 PM
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"This one is minty..."
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  #93  
Old 07-30-2012, 08:40 PM
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Looks like a CTG...Yep,I believe that's what it is. Seriously, it is a very interesting piece.
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  #94  
Old 07-30-2012, 09:05 PM
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Just letter it and be done with it ...
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:17 PM
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This gun cries out to become a Kyber Pass Fitz.
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  #96  
Old 07-30-2012, 09:17 PM
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Reminds me of "Cave Gun".
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:36 PM
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That dude needs a bath in some Hoppes.
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by woodsltc View Post
Goony, since this thread has now been resurrected, I'm curious...just what "caliber" does this thing fire???
See post #39 - although I think the word fire in your question is the one that should have had quotation marks around it.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goony View Post
First off, welcome to the forum. Pictures would be very helpful in identifying your gun, if it is at all possible to do so. If you can, post them to the following thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/...ts-see-em.html


I submitted pictures on the page you requested. I can post more if you need them. The Lion actually looks like a lizard up close
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:23 AM
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I submitted pictures on the page you requested. I can post more if you need them. The Lion actually looks like a lizard up close
And Thank you so much for welcoming me.
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