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Old 03-08-2016, 07:53 PM
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Default 97 Winchester

You guys never cease to amaze me with your vast areas of knowledge. BTW, thanks for the help on the 3-5-7.

I ran into a '97 today that looked better than any one I've ever seen. Most I see have the blue worn almost down to nothing. I would guess the bluing on this one was 95%. All the edges and roll marks looked sharp to me and there was honest wear on the magazine and slide rails. The wood was almost perfect too. I've seen dozens of reblued model 12's and they have been easy to spot.

What are the tells for a refinished '97? The only thing that didn't feel right to me was the blued bolt, but like I said, I don't know what the original finish looked like.
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Old 03-08-2016, 07:58 PM
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Sorry, no pics
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Old 03-08-2016, 08:45 PM
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Keep in mind that the Model 97 was still in Winchester's product line until the late 1950s. I'd say one in nice original condition is more likely to be of later production. 97s were always user guns, and I doubt there were many interested in collecting them until they weren't being made any more. About 30 or so years ago I had the chance to buy one which was LNIB, and it was a late production one. I didn't buy it, but should have. I used one for CAS, and it was from ca. 1919. Pretty junky, but I personally refinished the wood and re-blued it and it turned out nice. For some CAS shooters, the worse the cosmetic condition, the better. More period-authentic that way.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:28 PM
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Keep in mind that the Model 97 was still in Winchester's product line until the late 1950s. ....
I didn't know they were made for that long. Any clue on the latest serial numbers?
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:32 PM
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My Dad inherited one from his uncle and I shot many ducks and pheasants with it as a teenager. My cull brother-in-law ended up with that one. I always coonfinger every one I see.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:32 PM
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Production of the model 1897 reached SN 1,024,700 in 1958.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:44 PM
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I use my grandfathers '97 Winchester in SASS..his was made in 1902...finally had to replace the extractors....so it made it to 2015 with original parts and both grandpa and I ran them hard. Not bad for an over 100 year old gun!!

Randy
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:44 PM
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The "blued bolt" is correct. I have owned several from early to late production (1958). I still own three; my Grandfather's 16 ga. (~1910) and two 12's. Other than being heavy as heck; I love shooting them. I ran my first 25 straight in trap with a full choke 32" barrel.

Anyone likes stories? On the last bird of my 25 straight, I called for the bird and the trap boy obliged by releasing it. As I was swinging on to the clay target I had to sneeze. I stepped back a foot and sneezes twice which disrupted the swing, sight picture and timing. The trap boy muttered "miss" as the bird arced towards the earth. I recovered and fired; pulverizing the bird about two feet above the ground. Everyone on the squad, including me, started laughing as nobody had seen a shot like that.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mmaher94087 View Post
The "blued bolt" is correct. ....

Anyone likes stories? On the last bird of my 25 straight, I called for the bird and the trap boy obliged by releasing it. As I was swinging on to the clay target I had to sneeze. I stepped back a foot and sneezes twice which disrupted the swing, sight picture and timing. The trap boy muttered "miss" as the bird arced towards the earth. I recovered and fired; pulverizing the bird about two feet above the ground. Everyone on the squad, including me, started laughing as nobody had seen a shot like that.
Great story!!!

What's a value on one in this condition. I'm sure the serial number doesn't have seven digits. I see very loved ones in the $700-800 range. I'll call them tomorrow and get the serial number.
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Old 03-08-2016, 10:25 PM
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I picked one up a few years ago in very nice condition, with the
exception of a Bubba Poly choke job. I cut the barrel off and had
it threaded for screw in choke tubes. I wish I had left the wood
alone, but I put hi-gloss finish on it. Gun action is still stiff, needs
broke in.
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Old 03-08-2016, 10:41 PM
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I have a M97 Trap Grade that I have had for many years, and some of the parts for it are not the same as the standard grade guns. This gun was a John Browning design, and is harder to operate than most later pumps due to the high friction points of the design and the design of the ejector. The bolt has to be slammed all the way to the rear to eject an empty, but if you ever learn to use one, you will never "short shuck'" another pump gun! I learned to shoot skeet with mine, hunted with it and killed deer with it. You need to be careful where you place your trigger hand because the bolt comes out the rear of the receiver, and the sharp edges can gouge your hand pretty badly if you let it slide too far forward on the grip.
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Old 03-08-2016, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Skeetr57 View Post
...You need to be careful where you place your trigger hand because the bolt comes out the rear of the receiver, and the sharp edges can gouge your hand pretty badly if you let it slide too far forward on the grip.
I have a scar that backs that up!
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Old 03-08-2016, 11:13 PM
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I can't help with value as I haven't purchased one in thirty years. I did look at a nice 90% 'later' one for $850 asking price just last year.

"I have a scar that backs that up!" And did you get that initiation by holding the trigger rearward while you jacked the slide forward and aft until you ran out of ammo?
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Old 03-08-2016, 11:48 PM
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It only happened once.
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Old 03-09-2016, 12:43 AM
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Most 97's can stand to have the mainspring lightened up a bit. That relieves the heavy upward pressure the hammer puts on the underside of the bolt when operating the gun. The bolt hangs way out there when retracted and that heavy upward pressure makes for some not so smooth operation on them.
On a really worn 97, the receiver raceway on the left rear thin leading edge of the frame gets curled upwards from the bolt being jacked up on the return run into the frame each time by heavy hammer pressure.

The mainspring is best removed and carefully ground to a thinner profile.
(But some just loosen the mainspring attachment screw a tiny bit. That you can get at (just barely) in the assembled shotgun.)

They can stand quite a bit of reduction in power and remain 100% reliable. That provides the shooter w/a much smoother operating action.
The trigger spring itself is very heavy also. But leave it alone,,the action won't benefit from lightening it as the geometry of the trigger is excellent so the trigger pull is right where it should be with the spec trigger spring.


My 1903 mfg TD and a later solid frame are smooth as any pump actions I own. The only part I ever replaced in either is the ejector in the TD model. Ejectors used to be very expensive,but now with the SASS shooters making the guns popular, there are repro ejectors available at fair prices.
Cartridge stops wear out like any other pump or semi auto. The carrier is the locking bolt. A massive piece of steel that pivots up and blocks the bolt into position. They rarely have breaching problems.
I shoot around 6 or 7K rounds a year at skeet through the 97 and have for the last 12 years or so.

I've never had the problem of one tearing my hand up like some people have had unfortunately. It must just be the way the gun is held around the grip. I can see if you have a tendency to leave your grip hand thumb on top of the grip when shooting as some do,,you'd probably get clipped by the bolt most likely.

It's a complicated mechanism inside, filled with parts, springs and things that don't look like they belong in there.
They deserve a complete strip down and cleaning every so often if you shoot them a lot as the cam and race ways collect a lot of dirt and caked up carbon. They benefit from lube but it also makes them collect dirt because of it and their open design.
Fun guns. 120+ y/o design still going strong and people still can't get enough of them.
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Old 03-09-2016, 12:57 AM
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I recently picked up a 16 ga. that was languishing in my local pawn for quite awhile. Not too tactical. Busted ejector, left extractor, and the stock has been shortened, meaning I'll be "revamping" one of the repro Winchester butt plates. Also got a long cylinder reamer from Brownells to allow me to use 2-3/4" shells without issues. But after all is said and done, I will have a 110 year old shotgun that should work like a charm, for a bit over $300 invested. I'm looking forward to having it back together!

ETA, gotta mention, I love the takedown, and I did get it to the range and, surprisingly, it did function, albeit with pretty poor ejection!
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Old 03-09-2016, 01:27 AM
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I have two 12 ga and two 16 ga 97s. The first one I bought was a 12
ga with a poly choke that was missing the outer piece. It was at an
indoor auction house and I was sure that it had been reblued but I
got it for $330 so I was happy. When I got it home I realized the blue
was original and it dates to 1955. I didn't realize how long the 97
stayed in production. I have since added another mid 50s 12 ga and
two 16s from 1941. I got rid of the poly on the first one by cutting
the barrel at 24". I have taken several pheasants with it. The 97 is a
great gun just to own, real history. Prices are all over the place,
mostly too high if you see one on GB. A serial number of around one
million indicates 50s mfg date. Here's my first and best 12 ga
on top and my first and best 16 ga. The 16 was the most
expensive of my four at $500 in a local FTF deal I came
across but better than most auction site prices.
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Old 03-09-2016, 01:48 AM
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Default 97 trench conversion

Here is a trench conversion i owned a few years back. Sold it because it is a 1957 vintage, too new.... I have a couple older ones 1902 and 1912 i think. The newer one, 1912, has two barrels a 30" full choke SN matched to the gun and a second barrel 28", CYL choke i use to shoot skeet with. Thinking about chopping the barrel on the CYL choke and make another trench out of it. These don't command very high price but they are conversation piece on the skeet field.
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Old 03-09-2016, 10:31 AM
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On Winchester shotguns and most rifles you look at the serial along with the proof stamp on the top of the action and the barrel. All of these are stamped after final polish. They will have a raised burr from the displacement of the metal when stamped. These raised burrs are easily visible with a magnify glass. With time that burr may get a little worn and silver as it wears but will remained raised from the metal surface.

Someone that is skilled will polish the gun without washing the numbers and leaving them strong but they almost always will polish off that burr.

If the edges of the serial number and proof stamps are flat the gun has been refinished.
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Old 03-09-2016, 12:28 PM
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The proofmark is stamped after the guns are blued.
It was done in the range, on the fully assembled and finished product
So that mark should disturb the bluing as well. Sometimes it takes a closer look to see the flaked bluing on the rec'vrs of the older Winchesters,,if they even have any bluing left!
They didn't start using the WP proof mark till around 1908 sometime. So earlier 97's won't have one unless it went back for something and got (re)proofed.
93's are too early to have a proof on them and Winchester policy was to exchange any that came in later for repairs with a new M97.

I think prices on 97 shooters have gone down a little from the craze in the 90's and early 2000s.
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Old 03-09-2016, 02:10 PM
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The interesting story is that the Model 1893 (very similar in appearance to the Model 1897) was designed for black powder, not the smokeless powder loads which were just beginning to come onto the market in the mid-1890s. Apparently the action was too weak for smokeless powder. Winchester recalled the M93s, offering a M97 in exchange, and destroyed all they received. As a result, M93s are today quite unusual, if not rare. I remember seeing only one of them.
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Old 03-09-2016, 08:18 PM
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Does anyone know the whereabouts of a '97, TD with serial number E 738896? It's a two barrel set.
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Old 03-09-2016, 08:47 PM
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Have a M97, 20" Cyl. 'Police Model', c.1930's. Got it for a song from an estate group that came in a LGS when I was working there.
It's been in storage for a long-pending move. For the guys here that know, is it OK with 2 3/4" ammo? Not sure when they switched from 2 9/16".
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Old 03-09-2016, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Corp View Post
Have a M97, 20" Cyl. 'Police Model', c.1930's. Got it for a song from an estate group that came in a LGS when I was working there.
It's been in storage for a long-pending move. For the guys here that know, is it OK with 2 3/4" ammo? Not sure when they switched from 2 9/16".
I'd say yes. I'm not sure when the Winchester shotguns were
first chambered for 2 3/4" shells but it was well before the
30s. I've got an old model 12 that dates to sometime in the
20s, can't say exactly when without digging it out and
checking, but it is chambered for 2 3/4". When Winchester
started chambering their guns for 2 3/4" shells the barrels
were usually marked as being for 2 3/4" or shorter. When
you get your gun out of storage see what it says on the barrel.
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Old 03-09-2016, 11:49 PM
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[QUOTE=Old Corp;138990275 I have a M97, 20" Cyl. 'Police Model', c.1930's. Got it for a song from an estate group that came in a LGS when I was working there.
It's been in storage for a long-pending move. For the guys here that know, is it OK with 2 3/4" ammo? Not sure when they switched from 2 9/16".[/QUOTE]

It should be. I had a ca. 1919 M97 which worked fine with 2-3/4" shells, I think that length was more or less standard in 12 gauge for a long time before 1930, although shells were available loaded in both shorter and longer lengths.
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Old 03-10-2016, 12:21 AM
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You'll get all sorts of different info and guidance on what the chamber length for the 97 was and when.
One thing for sure is the older mfg 'short chamber' 12ga were 2 5/8". That was the industry standard if it could be called that.
Millions of rounds of 2 3/4" shotshell 12ga ammo have been shot through 2 5/8" chambers with no ill effects.
The modern plastic case and wad make for an easy release through the 1/8 shorter chamber and into the forcing cone & bbl.

If you want to modify, I'd suggest only reaming out the forcing cone to a gentler angle if anything. The abrupt short original forcing cone designed for cardboard and fiber wads is not needed with modern ammo. It'll allow the shell to open and the shotload and wads to easily exit the shell & enter the bbl. It's an operation often done to elderly SxSs w/ the same short chamber malidy. Minimal removal of bbl material is done as opposed to a chamber lengthening which includes a new forcing cone as well.

As far as I can tell, 2 3/4" M97 chambers show up on the guns starting around 1928/1929.
(IIRC, M12's were chambered for 2 3/4" earlier than the M97 for some reason).
Bottomline,,a 1930 gun in nice shape, I'd shoot away with 2 3/4" loads, staying with field loads just 'cause they're nice old guns.
My 1903 M97 is still short chambered I'm sure and I shoot it thousands of rounds a year w/no problem. All 2 3/4" reloads

If you have anything done,,make sure the 'smith understands to add 1/4" to the depth they are cutting from the face of the chamber of the disassembled bbl assembly.
The actual chamber length includes a 1/4" thick 'chamber ring' positioned inside the action. If you don't count that and you ream the chamber to 2 3/4" deep on the disassembled bbl for example,,. You have actually just made a 3" chambered M97 (or M12!).
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:55 AM
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One thing to be aware of is that the fired lengths of modern plastic shells may be a little shorter than 2-3/4", and may vary by brand. I have a first year production M1912 in 20 gauge chambered for 2-5/8" shells. I have found that both Remington and Winchester fired 20 ga shells are only slightly longer than that, and I have fired them in that shotgun with no problems. Federal shells are longer, so I don't use those.
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