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  #1  
Old 10-18-2011, 05:47 PM
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Default Remington pump rifle rather than an AR or AK

OK, With all that is going on I'm finally feeling like it's time for a defensive rifle. Now everyone tells me I need an AR or some other EBR type rifle for the task. The thing is these rifle are typically very expensive for a quality one, and with all of them being in calibers I don't load that would require even more money to get set up. It also does not help that 30 years ago I had the M16a1 forced upon me by the USMC and it was the biggest hunk o junk I ever had the displeasure or using. The AR platform left a sour taste in my mouth, I realize after 30 years and a half dozen revisions they finally got it to work, but I don't think I can bring myself to trust one.

Soooo..... I'm looking at an inexpensive alternative rifle that would get the job done in a caliber that I already reload and can still get cases of cheap mil-surp ammo. My warped mind came up with a Remington Pump like the 760 or 7600 in .30-06, these can be had on the used market for $300 or less and there are plenty of aftermarket 10 round magazines for $20 or less.

The Pros
Cheap entry costs
I already have the tools and supplies to load it and a couple hundred rounds loaded.
Much more power and range than a .223 or 7.62x39

The Cons
Parts availability
heavier cartridges and therefore less ammo can be carried and more recoil
10 round magazine capacity.


So I'm a totally crazy?? or is there some merit in this thought?
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Old 10-18-2011, 05:52 PM
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If you're crazy then I'm in the same asylum. I've been thinking the exact same thing. Been looking (not real hard, yet) for a 760. Wasn't real thrilled about some of the reviews of the 7600, so I left that off the list.
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Old 10-18-2011, 06:02 PM
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I think your idea has plenty of merit. I don't really count the ten round magazine as a con either.

Have you thought of an M1 Garand? CMP still has them for $495 plus shipping to your front door.

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Old 10-18-2011, 06:09 PM
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I know this isn't exactly on topic, but where do you get cases of cheap mil-spec. 30.06?
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Old 10-18-2011, 06:09 PM
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Remington did make a 7615 carbine; pump action .223 that used AR-15/M-16 magazines. They are not listed on their website, so they might be out of production.
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Old 10-18-2011, 06:18 PM
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I have a friend who is big in the handgun business (most of you might recognize his name). You should hear him go on about his Browning BARs. He has a couple of them in .30/06 and at least one in another caliber(s) - I think .270, but it may be a .308. He thinks they are a lot better rifle than the Remington autoloaders. That's one to consider, and sometimes you can find used ones at a fair price.

You might also consider a Mini-30. I have one that is not a bad gun, but magazines are a bit pricey. It could be a pretty mean 100-yard gun, or a bit more, if necessary. Ammunition is certainly cheap enough, but you really have to check it out before you buy. Some of it is VERY poor quality and will have short headspace and/or terrible primers. Best to buy in small quantities to check out the lot, before you buy a large amount.

There is always the '94 Winchester, and similar lever guns - all with plenty of power and reach. Best quality factory ammo will be on sale once or twice a year for about $10/box, in my neck of the woods and the .30/30 is a snap to handload. Very light, flat, and handy. If you need to reach farther, I assume you already have your scoped-sighted hunting rifle.

But you might be happy if you would give yourself a fair chance to re-evaluate the AR15s. You don't have to spend a pile of money to get a good one. If you can live with the .223/5.56 cartridge (and it is not terrible with the modern, heavy-bullet ammunition - 69 to 77 grains), you might eventually take a liking to one. It's never going to hit like a .30/06, but at shorter ranges, it is nothing to sneeze at.

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Old 10-18-2011, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
I think your idea has plenty of merit. I don't really count the ten round magazine as a con either.

Have you thought of an M1 Garand? CMP still has them for $495 plus shipping to your front door.

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The M1 Garand is very nice but $200 more expensive than a Remington and a lot heavier, also the Garand requires ammo made with powders that won't bend the op rod. Granted I have plenty of 4895 but there is no telling how some off brand bulk ammo would affect it. Or if I happen to run out of 4895 and only have 4350 or 4064 with 180 grain bullets left over.

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Remington did make a 7615 carbine; pump action .223 that used AR-15/M-16 magazines. They are not listed on their website, so they might be out of production.
The issue there is setup of a new caliber and the 7615 being a rather new design is a lot more expensive than an old dinged up 760.

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Originally Posted by crows View Post
I know this isn't exactly on topic, but where do you get cases of cheap mil-spec. 30.06?
I saw a few cans of mil-surp aught six ammo at the OGCA show this weekend, while a bit more than .223 it was not over the top.

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Originally Posted by M29since14 View Post
I have a friend who is big in the handgun business (most of you might recognize his name). You should hear him go on about his Browning BARs. He has a couple of them in .30/06 and at least one in another caliber(s) - I think .270, but it may be a .308. He thinks they are a lot better rifle than the Remington autoloaders. That's one to consider, and sometimes you can find used ones at a fair price.
I did consider the BAR MKII but it has a limited capacity magazine that is not really easy to change in a hurry.

Quote:
You might also consider a Mini-30. I have one that is not a bad gun, but magazines are a bit pricey. It could be a pretty mean 100-yard gun, or a bit more, if necessary. Ammunition is certainly cheap enough, but you really have to check it out before you buy. Some of it is VERY poor quality and will have short headspace and/or terrible primers. Best to buy in small quantities to check out the lot, before you buy a large amount.
The mini 14 and 30 are also on my list but they are a bit more spendy, especially when the magazine cost is factored in.

Quote:
There is always the '94 Winchester, and similar lever guns - all with plenty of power and reach. Best quality factory ammo will be on sale once or twice a year for about $10/box, in my neck of the woods and the .30/30 is a snap to handload. Very light, flat, and handy. If you need to reach farther, I assume you already have your scoped-sighted hunting rifle.
The 30-30 would be out for me, but I have considered a .357 lever gun. If I can find one on the cheap that would be perfect. But .357 levers are in high demand and cheap they're not.

Quote:
But you might be happy if you would give yourself a fair chance to re-evaluate the AR15s. You don't have to spend a pile of money to get a good one. If you can live with the .223/5.56 cartridge (and it is not terrible with the modern, heavy-bullet ammunition - 69 to 77 grains), you might eventually take a liking to one. It's never going to hit like a .30/06, but at shorter ranges, it is nothing to sneeze at.
Yeah I know the AR is a fine rifle and it's all in my head, I shot a bushmaster with an Eotech on top at the range just last week and it ran flawlessly, offhand accuracy was minute of dinner plate, it was nice but...
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Last edited by Smith357; 10-18-2011 at 06:45 PM.
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  #8  
Old 10-18-2011, 06:52 PM
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I was pondering on this question myself. I have an old Rem 35cal pump, to say it's long in the tooth is an understatement. I was thinking of a Mini-14, any thoughts concerns? Pros and Cons?
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Old 10-18-2011, 07:16 PM
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The 760 in .30-06 I had in the late sixties and on through the early eighties was accurate. It also had rather nasty recoil which may have been due to the receiver/stock design. An alternative such as .243 would be more than adequate for what you are considering, if you can find one.

Lacking the leverage of a bolt gun, it takes a little practice to learn to "shuck" somewhat more vigorously than your average slide action shotgun. (If using reloads for practice, this is one case where small base dies really are necessary.) Anything less will cause it to hang up just short of closing. When it does this, it is very difficult to give it that last shove to close it; it is quicker to just eject that round and chamber another. That alone would give me pause if I were considering it's use as a defensive rifle.

It would be an unlikely scenario (I would hope), but sporting type rifles are not well suited to high volume of fire should that be necessary. Closer tolerances and light weight parts are fine (even desirable) for a hunting rifle, but I would be skittish about the effects of heat generated by firing a significant number of rounds, binding of the action being the biggest concern.

I know nothing about them, but I see those Saiga .308's now and then; they aren't very expensive, maybe something along those lines?

I know you had your fill with AR's in general and perhaps 5.56 as well, but I have an A2 rifle and a midlength flat top carbine that are monotonously accurate and reliable. The only jam I had in one of them was with S&B brass that had rim diameter or extractor groove dimensions that were not correct. I discarded those, have loaded no more using them and have had no further issues.

If I need a rifle for the purposes we are considering, one of these will be what I reach for. Before I got one, I never thought I would say that for any semi-auto but they are just that good.
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Old 10-18-2011, 07:20 PM
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I have all three, AR's, AK"s and a Remington pump. All 3 will do the job they were designed for. You have to figure out exactly what you need either of them to do and go from there. The AR would be the most accurate, the AK would be the most reliable, but an old pump Rem. is the most "CLASSIC".
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Old 10-18-2011, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fir Fer View Post
I was pondering on this question myself. I have an old Rem 35cal pump, to say it's long in the tooth is an understatement. I was thinking of a Mini-14, any thoughts concerns? Pros and Cons?
I had one of the Mini 14 Ranch rifles when I lived out in a rural area in the '80's.

Pros: Totally reliable, easy to field strip and maintain, handy size and weight. Police trade-ins can sometimes be found for under $500; I know where there are several at a place about an hour's drive from me right now. They can also be accessorized to suit any need, real or imagined.

Cons: Not very accurate (I can't answer for the new ones; they are supposed to be much better). As the barrel (thin) heats up it really throws them around. I think the main culprit is supposed to be the method of attaching the gas block. Tried mounting a scope on it, but the slap and slam of the action repeatedly kept loosening it. I didn't know as much about mounting scopes then as I think I do now, so additional steps to lock everything down may have helped but I really got tired of fooling with it.

From the perspective of accuracy, ergonomics and maintenance, AR's run rings around them so that is how I eventually went.
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:08 PM
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I bought a Remington 7615 as an insurance policy against a new "assault weapons" ban. It is the special purpose model, synthetic stock, and rail suitable for a scope. I think it is pretty accurate and dependable. You do need to operate the action in a way that the rifle knows you are in charge, that is, do not hesitate to pump vigorously. Feeding from AR magazines has been flawless.

AR prices have come down since I bought the 7615. I will hold on to it for the aforesaid insurance purpose, but have been thinking about an AR.
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:10 PM
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Have you thought about an SKS?
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:11 PM
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I agree with your choice of a Remington 760 or whatever the current number is. I have carried one whenever I travel to an "unfriendly" to guns area. For years I have had state of the art rifles and for that matter still do, but a Remington is not an EBR and raises no red flags when checked and will still get the job done when needed. I cannot recommend any "extended" mags and would suggest you stay with factory 4 rd mags. I usually take five extra loaded mags with me in the case. I should also mention that I use a carbine rather than a full rifle.
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:22 PM
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350-400 dollars will buy you a "good enough" entry level AK. Centerfire ammo doesn't get much cheaper than Russian steel case 7.62x39mm either... Mags are cheap, not AR cheap, but cheap enough.

Anyway, it's just as well the 7615 is out of production. The one I had, the front sight fell off when I took it home. There were many reports of feeding issues, mine seemed okay, but I didn't do much with it.

The Remington autos/pumps can be modified using aftermarket stocks meant for Remington's 20 gauge line of shotguns. But... Even most of the 10 round mags floating around aren't that reliable. There are some options for a reliable ten round or 20 round mag, but all are very expensive. Did Remington start offering ten round mags? Not that it matters much since you can't really do a speedy mag change.

While there are currently flat finish versions of the Remington with synthetic stocks, the majority made over the years had a blue finish prone to rust under adverse conditions.

The autos aren't the easiest to take apart and clean. They're also less reliable than virtually any military design.

The pumps, given their limited capacity and their action, I'm unsure of the advantage over a shotgun at most common ranges. If it is a really bad day and you need extra range, then consider that it might be such a bad day that you might have to worry about the problems inherent in firing a pump action rifle while prone, sometimes from behind cover, or with only hand.

If you need a .30-06, you might also want to consider that under the circumstances you'd be likely to need it, that a flash hider, greater rate of fire, and higher capacity might be useful.
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:23 PM
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I have three of the Remmy 760's.30-06,270 and a 308.I've had the first two for over 25 yrs.The 308 for about 5 yrs.All three will do MOA with remington corelokts.Can't beat the old pumps for reliability and shooting factory ammo great.I'd buy them all over again.Still looking for one in 243.I've seen them at gun shows this year for 300- 400.Could dang near get all three for the price of a AR.
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:32 PM
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I think you should seriously consider an SKS. Feeds from a 10 round mag, reasonably priced, ultra reliable, ammo is reasonably priced, and there are a ton of different makes to choose from. Granted Chinese are the most prolific, there are also Russian, Yugoslavian, Romanian, Albanian, and the not so oftenly encountered East German. You can get addicted to collecting them.......trust me I know.

The SKS can also be quickly reloaded with stripped clips. Takes a little practice, but I've become quite good with them.
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:46 PM
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I have posted on this subject before. I have a lot of rifles. I inherited this 760 in 30-06 when my dad died at 90 in 2003. Dad shot his last nice buck with it at about 86 years old. It sat in my safe untill last year, almost as a after thought I sighted it in. First of all, it didnt need sighting in. It was super accurate with the peep dad put on it. I think it would make a great battle rifle as is. It`s light, accurate, they are cheap to buy, I probley will pick up another magazine or two. I would like to get a extended magazine for it. Does anyone make one? One other thing. It`s not a swat looking type weapon but gives up little to one. Its a innocent looking popular deer type rifle. Wont draw attendtion to you like a AR or AK and others would. That alone could mean something some day.

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Old 10-18-2011, 09:57 PM
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Smith357,

Great minds (or warped ones) must think alike. I thought about the 760/7600-series of pumps. My gunsmith tells me that they are exceedingly accurate rifles...completely the opposite of their 740/7400 semi-auto stablemates.

They too strike me as "zombie insurance". What's not to like:
-Pump Action
-10 round capcity with the aftermarket Brownells mags
-A "Real" caliber
-Near Un-Ban-Able platform

They can use some of the 870/1187 sights/M1913 rails, safety buttons, etc.

The local "watering hole" has two (740 and 7400 in .270 and .30-06, respectively). They are SOLID weapons.

Don't discount the Marlin 1894 rifles in .357/.41/.44 They are also VERY good...even in New Jermany or Kalifornia. PLENTY of power for anything needing to be handled.

Lastly, the old M1 Carbine (NOT AUTO ORDNANCE!!!) deserves some consideration also. The new Cor-Bon .30 carbine makes it into a decent short range defensive weapon.

Just my $.02
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:24 PM
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I really enjoy my AK-47
.30 cal
cheap ammo (chrono at 2225@ 20 feet from chrono)
can reload for it
affordable 30 rnd mags
1 1/4 groups at 25 meters
open style sights allows a shooter to get on target faster than peep
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Remington pump rifle rather than an AR or AK
Rather than Arizona or Arkansas?
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:36 PM
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I picked a 760 in .270 a few months ago for $225. It's got quite a bit of honest wear, but it functions perfectly. I haven't ordered a 10 round magazine for it yet, but I plan to. Recoil seems a little more stout than it needs to be, but it isn't wearing a recoil pad yet, either.

I was looking for one in .308 for a couple of years. Saw a few that were overpriced and passed them up. Saw lots and lots of aught sixes. Finally settled for the .270 because it was cheap and a caliber I already had. Now I've seen several I could afford in .308. I need a bigger safe.
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:37 PM
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Rather than Arizona or Alaska?
AR is Arkansas. Arizona is properly abbreviated AZ.
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:56 PM
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One agency issued me a Marlin Model 336 in 30/30 caliber as a patrol rifle. I worked in a rural area with any backup 45min plus away. Felt well armed with this "Old Fashion" weapon.
Another rural agency me issued a Remington Model 760 .30/06.
Both rifles were accurate and dependable.
I would pick either rifle as a defense weapon today.
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Old 10-18-2011, 11:29 PM
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In the 1960s, on orders for Alaska, I bought a 760 pump carbine (18 inch barrel) in 30-06 as a woods gun. It was superb for that, and I still have it. It mounts a scope easily. It's respectably accurate, not MOA, and stone cold reliable. The carbine kicks pretty hard, particularly with 220s (used them for moose in Alaska), but a recoil pad takes the sting out of it. A 308 would be just about as good, possibly a little more accurate, and maybe easier to find ammo for.

I shoot mainly handloads in mine, and use a small base die. I also have a Ram-Line 10 round carbon fibre magazine, that's got to be at least 15 years old. It works with no problems. Don't know what's the current availability of hi cap mags.

It has a curious characteristic that may take some getting used to: the weight of the parts is designed so that the recoil acts as primary extraction. So that after you shoot, the action is open about half an inch. If you get a round stuck chambering it, you may have a problem getting it un-stuck, but not as bad as on an AR. If you get the round in the chamber and it goes Bang, the empty will eject OK.

The gun works well with cast bullets. I got a 170 gr mould and made a bunch for practice shooting (17 grs of SR 4759). It's cheap and really gets you used to the feel of the rifle. I wouldn't hesitate to take one into a 'serious social purposes' situation. A bunch of 10 round magazines would be nice to have, and 20 round mags, which I don't think they make, would be even better.

I also have a Colt M4 carbine, and an M1a, and I'd probably take the Colt, but the 760 would get serious consideration. I have NO plans to get rid of that rifle.
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Old 10-18-2011, 11:52 PM
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In my view the m-16 thing ain't just in your head, and I wouldn't want anything that shot the .223/.556 round-nothin'. viva AK-47. I have a Yugo. Flapjack.
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by safearm View Post
Remington did make a 7615 carbine; pump action .223 that used AR-15/M-16 magazines. They are not listed on their website, so they might be out of production.
7615P

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Old 10-19-2011, 06:50 AM
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AR is Arkansas. Arizona is properly abbreviated AZ.
Good point.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:55 AM
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Sorry-
my last choice would be a pump.
Hard to use prone, IMO.
Lots of visible movement 'up front' if you are prone in the bushes.
To me, very noisy for a longer time than most actions.
Sorry again, but 06 would be way down my list.
Your apoc gun needs to be 223, 308, or 7.62x39. You know- make it eat ammo the other guy will bring to you.
Get an SKS.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:05 AM
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Ruger Mini 30 or a AK
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:06 AM
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Here's a company that will modify 7400/7600 rifles with muzzle brakes, rail systems, cryo treated bbls etc Custom Remington 7400 7600 750 Rifles Accuracy Systems Gunsmith Gunsmithing

I thought that they used to offer custom 10 and possibly even 20rd mags, but I only see 5rd mags listed. Though some of the custom rifles pictured seem to have a 10rd mag in place.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:18 AM
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Have you thought about an m1 Carbine?
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:48 AM
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Think seriously about it for a minute:
Rate of fire and magazine capacity: A black rifle has the advantage here but how many adversaries are you gonna take on? 20 ? 30? 100? If they are trained military, an amateur would be lucky to survive an encounter with two or more==remember they do this every day, all day. What kind of shape are you in? Mall ninjas? Unpredictable at best. Most will "spray and pray" You will be much better off to slip away than fight most of the time. My old XO was a Ranger who had received a battlefield commission. He always told us that killing was just another tool. The job was to accomplish your task and stay alive.

Accuracy: Unless you have some National Match level rifle, the hunting rifle will likely have better accuracy and longer range. Better to shoot someone at 300 or 400 yards and slip away than take on the whole East German Army. Also, the old adage says says "beware the man with one gun because he likely knows how to use it". I have an old, beat up 300 mag that I've used since the early 70s for everything from jackrabbits and ground squirrels to steel pigs and elk at ranges above 500 yards.

Ammunition: Milsurp ammo is a pain to reload. Assuming you'll have time to reload, you'll have to remove crimps and ream primer pockets, wash brass (in case it is corrosive), clean rifle (same reason). Quality is variable and autos are fussier. Any backwoods store (nightime shopping expeditions) will have 30-06 or 270. Half the time (if foolish enough to stand and fight), you'll need 223 and they'll have AKs (or vice versa). Wanna try to lug a Dillon 550 with you?

Defensive thinking: When I first started working for the Feds (just before 9-11), we had numerous self-defense courses available to us. I also work in a national forest with a high incidence of pot plantations. And I live adjacent to a large desert area with a lot of farms (read "meth labs") Every one of the courses put situational awareness ahead of physical defense and emphasized mind set.

Think about it some more==do you really want the guy who kills you to have a good-looking rifle or do you wanna stay alive?

Use what you use best and stay outta trouble! The pumps seem like a good choice to me. So does the Garand (to me). I've had mini-14s (an expensive plinking rifle according to Bill Ruger), an AR (doesn't seem any better than the Mattell Special I was issued) and an M1A (heaver than my Garand). Shot AKs (real full auto ones) in the service. Been shot at and been shot. Surprise!; You don't fall down dead with the first shot. I could (and did) run and walk

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Old 10-19-2011, 11:51 AM
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I find your post intriguing, strange really.
I was unaware we are any closer to the apocalypse?

You apparently already have a 30-06 of some type (bolt?), and your very limited budget gets you little more than you already have.

Besides my M1 Garand’s, my only other 30-06 has iron sights as well as glass. A point others would do well to consider in a hunting or defensive rifle purchase. Does yours?

If I only had one rifle to protect myself with, I’d be happy enough with an M1 Garand. I think many people find the CMP process of acquiring a Garand overwhelming. Too bad.

A Schuster adjustable gas plug for a Garand is a whopping $20.00, allowing you to shoot your hunting 30-06 ammo.

Do you own a shotgun or handgun?

I have little use for shotguns anymore and rely on AR’s, but in your situation, a Bolt 30-06, 12 Ga. Pump, and J-frame revolver might make good sense considering your limited budget.

The J-frame might seem like an odd choice. However if you only have one defensive handgun, concealability could be of great value. Ask our troops over seas. They fear small guns concealed on urban fighters because they can’t immediately identify an armed enemy. Blending in can be valuable.

You apparently already have a .357?
I ask because you are willing to consider a lever gun in .357.
Pistol cartridges for defense are usually a bad choice. The velocity gained from a rifle length barrel usually makes little difference. The .357 may be the exception.
In your case a lever .357 may make sense.

Lastly a “non ban” gun like your 760/7600, Garand, or lever gun, has advantages. Unlike many people who have posted before me, I’d be happy with in iron sighted 760/7600. However it’s such a small step up in protection from the Bolt Rifle you already own (?) I think a waste of money considering your budget.

Personally my go to defensive long guns are Noveske AR’s (5.56) with Aimpoint Red Dots, and weapon mounted white lights. Followed by Glock 19’s and J-frame pistols.

Emory
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Old 10-19-2011, 01:21 PM
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Here's a picture of my 760 carbine. The Weaver K 2.5 I put on in Alaska. I used Redfield mounts because at that time they incorporated a pop-up peep sight in the mount base in case the scope was disabled; a nice backup feature, although I never had to use it. The newly installed buttstock doesn't have a recoil pad yet. Also pictured is the 10 round Ram Line magazine.

One feature may cause trouble: the light plastic dust cover for the ejection port that reciprocates with the bolt. One of its functions is to retain the big, fat cam pin that pivots the bolt head in and out of engagement with the locking lugs. If that dust cover fractures, the pin will usually fall out of the bolt rendering the rifle inoperable. It never fractured for me, even in Alaska's cold, but I have a spare, just in case. It's not easy to replace.
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector View Post
Sorry-
my last choice would be a pump.
{snip}
Get an SKS.
Yeah I'm considering one of those too, it's just hard to stomach $300 for a rifle that I bought 15 years ago for $69. But I am familiar with their workings. Enough to modify the bolt so I can use 30 round detachables without have to hold the bolt back.

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Have you thought about an m1 Carbine?
Yes, ammo availability is a big limiting issue for the M1 Carbine. I have what I call the "Wallmart Rule" I won't buy a gun that uses ammo that can't be found at Wallmart or any back woods bait store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BearBio View Post
Think seriously about it for a minute:
Rate of fire and magazine capacity: A black rifle has the advantage here but how many adversaries are you gonna take on? 20 ? 30? 100?
Hopefully just one, the pack leader.

Quote:
Accuracy: Unless you have some National Match level rifle, the hunting rifle will likely have better accuracy and longer range. Better to shoot someone at 300 or 400 yards and slip away than take on the whole East German Army.
All I need is combat accuracy 2-4 MOA, the extended range and power to shoot through some objects is one thing very appealing about the .30-06.


Quote:
Ammunition: Milsurp ammo is a pain to reload. Assuming you'll have time to reload, you'll have to remove crimps and ream primer pockets, wash brass (in case it is corrosive), clean rifle (same reason). Quality is variable and autos are fussier. Any backwoods store (nightime shopping expeditions) will have 30-06 or 270. Half the time (if foolish enough to stand and fight), you'll need 223 and they'll have AKs (or vice versa). Wanna try to lug a Dillon 550 with you?
The milsurp ammo would not get reloaded and really just be a backup. The reloading gear will let me load up a couple thousand rounds to sore in ammo cans. It's cheaper to make them than to buy them. I have about 2000 .38s just sitting in a can waiting to be shot and enough stuff to make 4-5000 more if need be. I could have the same amount of 06 built up in a couple of months. I also have a .30 caliber mold for cast 06 loads if .30 caliber bullets become hard to get as they were just last year.


Quote:
Defensive thinking:
I think like a USMC ground pounder. OK may like an old retired grunt, hit and run, and hole up and hide. I used to think I could just out range any adversary by playing joe sniper with my hunting rifle, but I'm getting old and live in an urban landscape.

Quote:
Think about it some more==do you really want the guy who kills you to have a good-looking rifle or do you wanna stay alive?
I want the guy who kills me to die from the wounds I gave him, hopefully a slow and very painful death.


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Originally Posted by crofoot629 View Post
I find your post intriguing, strange really.
I was unaware we are any closer to the apocalypse?
One cay closer than yesterday.
It's just I'm taking all these radical yahoos that are calling for a revolution at their word. Call me crazy if you want, but luck favors the prepared.

Quote:
You apparently already have a 30-06 of some type (bolt?), and your very limited budget gets you little more than you already have.
A Winchester M70

Quote:
Besides my M1 Garand’s, my only other 30-06 has iron sights as well as glass. A point others would do well to consider in a hunting or defensive rifle purchase. Does yours?
Iron sights are a must have on any hunting or defensive rifle, and yes my M70 has iron sights. I don't trust glass or batteries in the woods.


Quote:
A Schuster adjustable gas plug for a Garand is a whopping $20.00, allowing you to shoot your hunting 30-06 ammo.
Hmm.... I must look into one of these devices. It would make the Garand a real possibility

Quote:
Do you own a shotgun or handgun?

I have little use for shotguns anymore and rely on AR’s, but in your situation, a Bolt 30-06, 12 Ga. Pump, and J-frame revolver might make good sense considering your limited budget.

The J-frame might seem like an odd choice. However if you only have one defensive handgun, concealability could be of great value. Ask our troops over seas. They fear small guns concealed on urban fighters because they can’t immediately identify an armed enemy. Blending in can be valuable.

You apparently already have a .357?
I ask because you are willing to consider a lever gun in .357.
Pistol cartridges for defense are usually a bad choice. The velocity gained from a rifle length barrel usually makes little difference. The .357 may be the exception.
In your case a lever .357 may make sense.
I have a few revolvers, my 4" 586 would be my combat magnum. No shotgun, I really don't have a use for one either, since I quit playing clay games I sold my O/U to pay bills.

You all are bringing up some valid points to get me thinking, keep up the good work.
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:55 PM
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I have most of the bases covered apparently.

1978 vintage Marlin 1894 44.

1955 Remington 740 30-06.

1989 Ruger Mini 30 with the .308 bore.

Browning A 500 12ga semi auto.

1987 W. German Sig P220.

DW CBOB 1911

Numerous other options.

I like the Remington 740 for the non EBR look that it has with the M1 Garrand capability it possesses. Mine is scoped and set up (LOP) with a Pachmayer Decelerator butt pad and a sling + a boat load of extra magazines. Very accurate and it was LNIB when I got it. If the rails wear out, it will be a long way down the road.

The 1894 is awesome. Lobs a fat, heavy boolit accurately out to 100 yards. Probably further, but that's as far as I've shot it so far. Holds 9 in the magazine when using 265g cast.

The Mini 30 is another. I load a 150g NBT to 2100fps. Lots of hard hitting smashum downrange. Accurate too. I re torqued the gas block and had a trigger job (low cost accurizing that works). Scoped with a 3x9 Leupold. Not a rifle to get in front of. I once hit a running pig at 460 yards (laser ranged) and cartwheeled it with this rifle.

As to handguns and shotguns, a 44 on the hip works for me, but the 1911 is pretty slick. Not into shotguns, need to be too close to use them.

Which brings me to this point. Hunting rifles. Here's where I would dwell.

I have numerous options, but I would probably rely on my Rem 700 chambered in 6.5-06. That rifle is an outright sniper platform. You can really reach out and touch things with a 6.5/.264 boolit. When it gets there - lookout! Europe recognizes the value of this caliber, but it is slow on the uptake here in the States. I go with what works and it does.

30-06 shoots more like a rainbow, but if you know your rifle, it's deadly indeed.

Of course, if you find yourself in the midst of difficulty and the weasels are rapidly closing in, my solution is a Marlin GBL 45-70 with a Leupold 2.5x Scout scope. Should make an impression on a foe, vest or not with a 420g cast boolit skipping along @ 1800fps. You could get outta Dodge pretty good that way.

Back on subject.

The Remington or the Mini would be an excellent choice for a non intimidating SHTF kind of rifle. Even the 1894 would work, but you have to turn it sideways to work the action if you're prone.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:09 PM
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"Defensive" to me means <100 yards. I have an early (.308 bore) Mini-30 & a Norinco SKS for this. Since we're legally limited to 10 round mags I like the SKS better. Even with the stock sights the SKS kicks the Mini's behind accuracy wise and AIM Surplus has a special on milsurp Yugo steel free x39 on stripper clips. They're almost as fast to reload as detachable mags. The strippers don't cost $35 a pop either. At .20 a round I don't really feel a need to reload it (Though I do have a bunch of boxer type x39 brass stashed).

When I get back to work I'll be looking for a .308 bolt gun for keeping those zombies at a greater distance.

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Old 10-20-2011, 12:16 PM
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Its highly unlikely that you will be able to buy "cases of cheap mil-surp ammo" in 30-06, depending on your definition of "cheap". It would be much more likely if you stuck to .308 instead.

I also recall that Mel Tappan tested the Remington pumps back in the day and found that they did not handle protracted firing very well at all.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M29since14 View Post
There is always the '94 Winchester, and similar lever guns - all with plenty of power and reach. Best quality factory ammo will be on sale once or twice a year for about $10/box, in my neck of the woods and the .30/30 is a snap to handload. Very light, flat, and handy. If you need to reach farther, I assume you already have your scoped-sighted hunting rifle.
I'll second the choice of a lever gun in .30-30.
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:37 PM
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Default A sucker is born every minute. :)







OK, I up and did it.......sort of, only worse.

Hey, it was cheap! & I'm a cheapskate who marches to the beat of a different drummer.

The Rifle is a Remington 742 in .30-06, quite possibly the worst rifle ever made, depending on who you talk to.

The scope is a 1.5 power with an 870 mount with home made Kydex shims. The irons are sighted in at 100 and are visible when the scope is removed. I got one plastic and one steel magazine to function test. The plastic ones are a single stack and real big and clunky, the steel mags work fine and are much trimmer than the plastic, but they are very difficult to load. They also require positive insertion into the rifle, you slap in it or it falls out, and it need a solid yank to get it out, there is no babying this thing.

It works well with the cheap wally world Remington core-locks, but I need to get a set of small base, full length dies. I all I have used for years are neck sizing dies for my bolt guns.

My biggest issue is small charging handle and the sharp edges on the ejection port on the receiver, it ripped my hand open a couple of times charging it, and that was before I put the scope mount on it. Building an extended charging handle is a priority.


Now, where is that can of flat black spray paint?
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:19 PM
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Now, where is that can of flat black spray paint?
Now, where are the can of flat black, flat brown, and flat green spray paint?
Fixed it for ya!
Do it right!

What about a ventilated handguard, bayo lug, and flash suppor?
You've got to get tack to kool.


Can I git an AMEN here?
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:23 PM
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AMEN!

I like it! I think cheap is great, as long as it works, and it looks like your setup does.

Nice job.
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:28 PM
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i have a gunsmith friend that says these are one of the worst to work on there is. i would get a supply of spare parts,springs, and learn how to rebuild,was going to say repair. i used an old 740 years ago to unload a batch of mil.06 ammo to make 25-06 out of. that was back when you had no choice. good luck with your new rifle. hope you don't have to use it for the reason you bought it.
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:28 PM
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Thumbs up My thoughts.........25 1/2" of insane terror!!!

$500 bucks and a few nickels invested in mags gets a no-nonsense very reliable AK(AMD-65) in a caliber that will be most likely used against you(get him and his ammo). This particular gun is VERY accurate. Pic is for size comparison against Kimber Montana with 17 1/2" barrel in .325WSM. JMO
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Old 11-25-2011, 09:27 PM
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Remington pump rifle rather than an AR or AK Remington pump rifle rather than an AR or AK Remington pump rifle rather than an AR or AK Remington pump rifle rather than an AR or AK  
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Originally Posted by handejector View Post
Now, where are the can of flat black, flat brown, and flat green spray paint?
Fixed it for ya!
Do it right!

What about a ventilated handguard, bayo lug, and flash suppor?
You've got to get tack to kool.


Can I git an AMEN here?
Colors will just jack up the overall cost. Basic flat black is 99 cents a can.

I can always thread the end of the barrel and put an AK flash hider on it.

A sling mount is needed, I'm sure there a way to make a lug too.


Now I can really start saving for a .357 lever gun.

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Originally Posted by perrazi View Post
i have a gunsmith friend that says these are one of the worst to work on there is. i would get a supply of spare parts,springs, and learn how to rebuild,was going to say repair. i used an old 740 years ago to unload a batch of mil.06 ammo to make 25-06 out of. that was back when you had no choice. good luck with your new rifle. hope you don't have to use it for the reason you bought it.
Oh yeah, I took it apart.



I polished the chamber, (#1 documented issue for jamming) it was not bad, but I'm not in any hurry to take it apart again. I also inspected all the known trouble points while it was apart.
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Last edited by Smith357; 11-25-2011 at 09:38 PM.
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  #47  
Old 11-25-2011, 11:35 PM
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Ron H. Ron H. is offline
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OK, With all that is going on I'm finally feeling like it's time for a defensive rifle. Now everyone tells me I need an AR or some other EBR type rifle for the task. The thing is these rifle are typically very expensive for a quality one, and with all of them being in calibers I don't load that would require even more money to get set up. It also does not help that 30 years ago I had the M16a1 forced upon me by the USMC and it was the biggest hunk o junk I ever had the displeasure or using. The AR platform left a sour taste in my mouth, I realize after 30 years and a half dozen revisions they finally got it to work, but I don't think I can bring myself to trust one.

Soooo..... I'm looking at an inexpensive alternative rifle that would get the job done in a caliber that I already reload and can still get cases of cheap mil-surp ammo. My warped mind came up with a Remington Pump like the 760 or 7600 in .30-06, these can be had on the used market for $300 or less and there are plenty of aftermarket 10 round magazines for $20 or less.

The Pros
Cheap entry costs
I already have the tools and supplies to load it and a couple hundred rounds loaded.
Much more power and range than a .223 or 7.62x39

The Cons
Parts availability
heavier cartridges and therefore less ammo can be carried and more recoil
10 round magazine capacity.


So I'm a totally crazy?? or is there some merit in this thought?
Sir, given your requirements, I'd look for a sporterized '03 (or -A3) Springfield or '17 Enfield. Being "desecrated," they're much cheaper than pristine examples in all-GI trim. They're also simpler and more reliable than those mickey-mouse Remington pump things, easier to find parts for, and they're made to accept stripper clips for fast reloads. Also, many sporterized '03s were fitted with Lyman target sights, which are much better than the issue sights.

If you're not wedded to the .30-'06, then there's SMLEs, Mausers, Moisin-Nagants, SKSs, all sorts of things.

**edited to add:**
Oops, I see you've already bought something else. Sell it and look for a sporterized '03. ;-)

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
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Last edited by Ron H.; 11-25-2011 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 11-26-2011, 09:17 AM
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Smith357 Smith357 is offline
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Oops, I see you've already bought something else. Sell it and look for a sporterized '03. ;-)

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
You know if this project starts to go south, I have no problems selling the 742 and going another direction. As in most things, I have to learn the hard way.
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:14 PM
satx78247 satx78247 is offline
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Smith357,

I realize that this thread is OLD but my suggestion (after being "pinned to a badge" for >3 decades) is the Remington Model 760 in .308WIN, which can still be bought, if you look at the gunshows & gun-shops used, for 250-350.oo even in the current "2013 OBAMANATION".
That pump-rifle isn't "scarey-looking" & is UNLIKELY to ever be "banned", even by the "gun-control LOONS".
Btw, NUMERICH has 10 round "factory mags" for "a reasonable price"
(I wouldn't take love nor money for mine in .300 Savage.)

NOTE: George F. Cake Company, Inc (formerly of Dallas, TX) used to sell a 15-round mag in .300 Savage. - I'm looking for one of those.

yours, satx

Last edited by satx78247; 11-05-2013 at 02:18 PM. Reason: addenda
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Old 11-05-2013, 02:43 PM
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I have two AR rifles, but I prefer my lever guns in 30-30, 45-70, 44 magnum, and 357 magnum. I don't feel a bit under gunned with the lever guns. I figure the ARs will make good trading material if and when things get bad around here.
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