I've been trying to make up my mind on what to replace an alloy framed beretta 85 cheetah with and I want to go with some sort of steel framed .380 for its replacement

but the only ones that I know of that have steel frames are the old walther PP series, maybe the older version of the cheetah from the 80's, the polished blued ones although I'm not entirely sure about that though and the sig 232/230 stainless but not the blued version sadly as I believe that has an alloy frame as well (along with alot of sigs in general) and the colt 1908 in .380

so is there any I missed, and I'm looking for a steel framed one with some sort of a manual safety as it would be a pocket gun and the lack of a safety on a semi auto in that kind of use frankly makes me nervious and about a 6 to 7 round capacity and preferabily a takedown lever and an easy takedown like on the beretta cheetah, basically something where I wouldnt have to hold the trigger guard down to take the slide off for cleaning like on the walther PP series

and the reason why steel is a must is because I've noticed that the alloy frame of the beretta seems to heat up in my hand and overal feel kind of uncomfortable and sticky during a range session because of the alloy frame, while steel framed ones and polymer framed ones dont.

and as a rule it seems like the polymer ones dont have any sort of a manual safety like on the PP series so I havent really given them much thought here so there might have been something I missed with that hence the posting of this thread.

Browning made one of the slickest and smoothest ever- before 1968.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

You forgot the Colt Mustang.

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Dick

I kinda dont want to go with an SAO like the 1911 in this matter as I dont really trust the cocked and locked with an external hammer sticking out like that in a pocket for daily carry, so that rules out the mustang, beretta 70 and the sig 238.

The best 380's IMHO are the Sig 230/232 and the CZ 83. Neither are "pocket guns" by the Cheetah isn't either.

The NAA 380 is solid SS a bit heavy but a true DA only. The trigger is pretty heavy but can be lightened a bit.

The Seecamp 380 is expensive, hard to find and expensive.

The Colt Pony Pocket Lite IMO is better than the Mustang for putting in your pocket.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I think the best pocket pistol in .380 ever made is the Colt Pocket Model M, also known as the model 1908. It's compact, reliable, accurate, easy to field strip, but they ain't cheap.

Here's one compared in size to a Interarms PPK/S.

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- Change it back -

I agree about the CZ and Sig. Given the price I went with the CZ83. Slick, well finished and very reliable, even though it sometimes pinches my trigger finger.

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Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

Walther PPK/S, made in Germany, blue & all steel. Even used, they are well worth it. Outstanding small semi-auto. Just wish it had adjustable sights.

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Martin Co,FLA(finally made it)

You might want to look at a MasterpieceArms MPA380 Protector.
Magazine capacity is 5, upper and lower made of 4140 Steel.
DAO, and less than 12 ounces. Smaller and lighter than the NAA,
recoil is not bad. Still less than $300, I believe. TACC1

Oh, yeah, here's a pic of a MPA380...

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MPA 380 w Shoo-Rod 014.jpg (51.8 KB, 131 views)

Kahr makes a very nice DAO .380. But a little bigger (PM9) and you get 9mm. Joe
http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-P380.asp

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

yeah the cheetah certainly isnt that, atleast without a holster but is what I said about the sig 230 and Sig 232 in their blued forum true, that they are alloy framed? or is it possibile that the sig 230 could have been steel framed and they only moved over to alloy for the 232?

and the colt pony looks kind of interesting actually as it seems like the bevertail would give you a better grasp of it so your not always adjusting your grip to get a good grip on it like a browning .25 acp while shooting it which was part of the reason why I never really gave guns like the seacamp much thought as I have rather large hands and figured it would happen on those and guns like it like the kel tec .380 I tired at a gunshop when they first came in.



funny you should mention that as I believe Micro Machining Corp made some adjustabile rear sights for it back in the 1960's

Anyone here with expertice on Walther PPK?

although I'm not sure where to you'd be able to find them today though as MMC of today aint what it used to be in any sense of the word.




and Ron what's the magazine capacity of the CZ there? it looks like it may be a double stack from the photo

and Faulkner is the grip shorter on the colt there that the walther PPK/S?

Good eye! The mag is double stack with a 12 round capacity. (CZ83)

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Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

What about the Makarov IJ70 (Available in 9 x 18 and 380ACP)? 11 + 1 double stacked capacity, steel frame and slide, adjustable sights, safety/decocker. The only problem I ever had out of mine was the rear sight shot loose after the first few hundred rounds so I replaced it with a beefier model from makarov dot com.

Class III

Edit: Makarov dot com no longer sells parts.

Another vote for the Colt's Model 1908 .380

The only ones with a manual safety that I know of are large guns and not "pocket" or mouse guns.

The best, smallest, all metal (but heavy gun is the NAA 380 Guardian.) IMO.
It has no safety, but a very heavy, long trigger pull. It does not need a safety. It is a simple blowback, easy to fully take apart and works very well.

The Seecamp is like a fine watch but brutal to shoot in 380, it is the same size as the 32ACP which will also bite your trigger finger.

This chart may help:

http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf

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Still Running Against the Wind

A German made Mauser Hsc is worthy of consideration as well.

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Stay safe people!

I'll second the Hsc...

hmm I have heard of the HSC before but I kinda wrote it off because I heard it had feeding trouble, has any of that been true with your two examples?

and where exactly is the hammer on the thing as its got a really odd looking hammer on it and is there any sort of hammer bite from it as it looks rather close to the web of the hand on it



honestly I'm not really a fan of russian pistols and the fit and finish just doesnt look that nice on them in my opinion, plus from what I understand the guns have some sort of a sleave in them to shoot .380 acp as the barrel is not strictly a .380 barrel and the same applied to the walther PP super in .380 and supossedly your not supposed to shoot that markarov ammo in the walther either

I dont remember why though



so the NAA is practically a revolver in regards to its trigger then?

I have to agree with Faulkner. I own 3 of the Colt Model M Pocket Pistols. They are incredibly well manufactured, easy to shoot, easy to control, very ergonomic, and flat! They shoot like a dream and NEVER jam! Even with their rudimentary sights, they are dead nuts on in the accuracy department.

They ONLY down side to them is as a CCW. I do not like carrying them with a round chambered - -as the safety can be easily switched off by accident, and with the chamber empty, one would need the use of two hands to bring the weapon in to battery; a definite detraction as a CCW gun.

That said, I simply love 'em!

Chief38

Yes, a heavy DA revolver. It is probably in the 12lb range but does loosen up a bit, and can be smoothed a little bit. It is hammer fired and true DA meaning it has double strike ability. Every time you pull the trigger the hammer will fall. Very simple blow back gun. The blow backs (fixed barrel) will have more felt recoil than a lock breech (say a Ruger LCP, Kel Tec) which bleed off some recoil. The NAA is a heavy hunk of stainless so it's no light weight but is a true pocket gun. A lot of the others mentioned here are great guns but not pocket guns. I was on a .380 kick for a while and have or fired most of them. If I am going to holster a gun it's not going to be a 6-7 shot 380. I do not go anywhere without my LCP or NAA.

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Still Running Against the Wind

The NAA (North American Arms) "Guardian" 380 is a great, solid pistol. Mine ran flawlessly. I wish I never got talked out of it. Definately worth checking out. Maybe I should get another...

The NAA 380 is a good gun, utterly reliable, but heavy and bulky. I went with a Ruger LCP and love it. I am not worried about the "plastic" frame, it is light, thin, compact, and so far 100% reliable and I can keep all shots within the top of a coffeel cup at 10 yds. I did a slight midification of the front sight to make it easier to pick up, but that's all. The trigger is long, (but not heavy) just like a revolver, so I don't worry about the lack of a manual safety.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Here is about the best pic I have handy of the hammer. With my large hands, I don't get hammer bite at all. The hammer is almost totally recessed, so manipulation can be difficult. But it is snag free. One of the main reasons I prefer the Hsc over a PPk is because the Walther does chew my hand up, while the Hsc doesn't.

I have never had a problem with either of my Hsc pistols feeding hollowpoints, but the complaints are widespread enough you have to take them for face value. Test one first with your chosen ammo.



I copied this from a post I wrote over on the THR.

I prefer the Hsc over the PPk for two reasons. The Hsc doesn't give me hammerbite - unlike the PPk which chews on my hand something fierce. Second, it is not nearly as obnoxious to shoot. My PPk is painful for my hand, the Hsc is not. I'm a big guy - 6'4 with meaty hands, and the Hsc is my favorite .380. Trigger is stiff in DA, but smooth. The action kinda freaks people out, magazine disconnect and it drops the slide upon insertion of the mag. It's also a heavier little gun, the pocket autos of today are much slimmer, much lighter and easier to carry. I also really appreciate the exposed but nearly flush hammer, unlike the PPk's full hammer.

The Mauser is well built, my interarms version is very nicely finished, just stay away from the Italian ones licensed and produced by Gamba. They are questionable. Buy German. The Hsc is kinda a cult gun, it has some very devoted followers who really like the gun, but many pass over it in favor of the PPk. I'm a follower. Mine is accurate, reliable, comfortable to shoot and carry in a holster (not a pocket gun) and it is mechanically interesting and well built.

However, some claim theirs are unreliable with anything but ball ammo. That is the biggest complaint that I'm aware of, followed by issues of size. This is not a pocket gun, but people want to judge it based upon the new generation of .380s. The Hsc has been around since the 1930s, so that needs to be kept in mind.

This one resided in my father's office desk until he retired. He never had any issues with his either, I actually bought mine because I liked his so much. Now I have both.

yeah I was thinking about that actually as the trigger looks to be on par with the 1911 just from the looks of it (IE something like 5 pounds stock I would imagine unless I'm mistaken) and however the safety doesnt look to be on par with the old 1911 where you'd have to purposely push on it to turn it off

and the fact that its got an internal hammer so unless you cock the slide you cant tell if its cocked really from the outside, unless theres something I'm missing and it is essentially a SAO like the 1911 just with an internal hammer right?

come to think about it didnt someone like Kimber recently make a modern version of it too, except in a bigger caliber recently and DA I believe?


Hmm sounds like a good gun then, actually sounds like the 380 equavalent of a model 49 bodyguard, also they wouldnt happen to make a blued version of the NAA would they?

and with the LCP is the trigger pull on par with the NAA or lighter? and is there any difference in the feel between the two besides the weight?



and your right some of these are more range/holster guns but hey what's to say I cant have both, A pocket 380 and a range/holster 380?




hmm actually one of the reasons why I got rid of the PPK is because I thought one of these days I was going to get hammer bite from it and it wasnt that plesant to shoot with my big hands, plus the plastic grips cracked on me with only one or two range sessions and then you factor in what I thought was probably stainless steel galing in its early stages (it was an interarms USA Stainless steel model by the way) and well you see why it was replaced with a brand new italian beretta 85 a couple of years ago.

so I guess its just like the PP/PPK series in that regard, buy the highest quality one you can find and test it before you carry it to make sure it feeds your ammo of choice but that's kind of true of any gun really.

never really heard of it being made by gamba though, does it flat out say that on the slide or is it hidden?

To be honest and JMO. If you want a 380 pocket gun, the best deal going right now is the Ruger LCP. The KT 380 is the same but not as refined. It is thin, light and works. Accuracy is pretty good for what it is. Yes, its plastic (polymer) but you do not even know it's in your pocket. Here in Florida it's mostly shorts and T shirt. I use a Desantis Nemisis pocket holster.
The gun is a hammer striker fired so there is no second strike.

My only complaint of the NAA is it's weight. They are a great company though and stand by their products. Ruger and KT do also. I would get the SW Bodyguard if it came without the stupid laser.

Just a little bigger is the Kahr PM 9 which is scary accurate, better caliber but more money.

I have not seen or shot the Masterpiece Arms 380 that was mentioned. It looks like a well made gun and basically a Seecamp/NAA copy only milled parts not cast.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I'll second this opinion on the NAA Guardian 380. Heavy for its size, but all stainless, heavy trigger pull negates need for a thumb safety, and it is a "true" double action, so it has second-strike capability. (I never had any problem with "carry" ammo, but the Blazers we had in the armory for practice seemed to have hard primers- often had to double strike, but it always went "boom" that second time.) It you're content with the .380 round and want a reliable steel pocket pistol, I'd go with NAA.

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LEO since 1981.

When the Walthers became available in stainless I bought two PPKS's a TPH and a blue PP .22 . The TPH went back and was finally replaced with a new gun. Both PPK's made the trip back to the factory. Even after a break in period only the blued PP seemed reliable until the firing pin broke.
Count me out when it comes to Walthers.

The Hsc is a beautiful precision gun but it could be a chore to find magazines, grips and parts for. Be careful and don't lose that goofy little trigger spring when you go to disassemble it.

My sister had a Smith model 37 for purse carry. She absolutely hated it, mostly because of recoil. Her son bought a sig P230 and she fell in love with it. She promptly bought a new P232. She loves the ease of use and accuracy. I love the ergonomics and laser like accuracy. I also like the heel catch for the magazine. This prevents inadvertant magazine release while carrying it in your pocket unlike those with the 1911 style mag release.
I have had this happen with my P-3AT.

If low cost is an option and you want a Walther style pistol a lot of individuals are quite fond of Bersa......I have no experience with them.

It'll say "Made in Italy" on the slide, IIRC. The originals will have German proofmarks and the Interarms imports like mine will say "Made in W. Germany" on the slide.

All the Hsc Supers, the double stack, high capacity models, were made by Gamba and have a less than stellar reputation.

I don't have many guns in 380 but my Sig 232 in stainless may be the best Sig I've had. It's a really nice shooting pistol and easy to shoot well.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

hmm actually how do you take down the HSC? the trigger guard seems to be part of the frame unlike on the walther PP series where you pull down on it and back on the slide to release it.


and I have to admit the 230 was one of the ones I was considering in its blued form but I'm not sure if it would be like the beretta before it were it just feels kind of odd to handle it because of its aloy frame.

and I kinda want to stay away from stainless if I can help it as I'm just not really a fan of polished stainless guns as any sort of a mark on it and it looks like hell unlike a blued gun where it gives it character




and I am glad you said that, I was looking on the online website of a place close to me and one of the guns listed was the HSC super, not the normal one and I was wondering about that.

and actually I see a fair number of HSC supers in the gunbroker ads, maybe thats why they seem to have alot of complaints about them as it may be purely the logic that if the double stack one is **** then the single stack must be as well.

One of my favorites although it's an inexpensive gun and has an alloy frame is the Makarov. Good gun for the money but no where near as nice as my Sig.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

have to admit I did give the markarov some thought but it just doesnt really apeal to me and if given the choice I would have gone for the CZ 83 over it as they more or less seem to be the same gun although I like the finish of the CZ over the markarov

plus I'm not really a fan of russian or CZ guns to begin with even though one of my all time favorites is based of of the CZ 75 design.

My first 380 was my Makarov, I got it back when they were almost giving them away (around $125 if I remember correctly) so it's a good value but hasn't been used for a long time. When I need a 380 fix I take the Sig out.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

Well, I guess I spoke too soon. The Hsc thread over at the THR has people piping in with complaints about theirs - German or not. I'd hate to recommend a gun that people have had so many problems with. I guess I got lucky and came up with two good ones. Test fire if possible before buying I guess.

The HSc takedown catch is a little dingus (technical term) in the front of the trigger guard. Pull down on it, it's got a fingernail notch, then pull back on the slide and up, The back end of the slide will come up and out of the frame, and then you can slide it to the front off the barrel. You can do it quicker than you can read this.

I love me bersa thunder, one of my favorites. cheap reliable and accurate like a sonofagun.

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bersa.jpg (6.7 KB, 18 views)

I had a PPK/S in Stainless Steel that was stamped "Made in Germany". They throw that phrase around a little too loosely to suit me. Back when I bought the gun (about 1980) the law allowed "Made in Germany" stamp if the final assembly was done on German soil.

So in the case of the Porsche 944, which was make entirely in Spain, but arrived in Germany with the seats not bolted down, it was allowed to be "made in Germany" once the seats were bolted down on German soil.

In the case of my PPK/S, the gun was made in Portugal, but the grip panels were not screwed in. Once they were screwed in on German soil it was "made in Germany".

This is not to deride the quality of the weapon (which was excellent), but to deride the phrase "made in Germany" (which is a bunch of bull****).

All of this information was courtesy of one of the gun magazines back then, but I cannot remember the name of the magazine.

so we've got made in france and then given to the germans for final assembly with the slides with manhurin and now portigal, plus the whole interarms thing made in the USA and that whole debacle with them

makes you wonder if they even wanted to really make the damn thing, actually it might explain why they just willy nilly sold the rights to smith and wesson for the thing in 2000 and dumped it from their line up all together save for the PPK/E which is made in czechoslovakia under the walther banner and I bet there not happy that bond is now using an out of production walther now, atleast he was in the last film especially with the PPS series being its replacement.

although I think I might have noticed something crucial though it seems like the walthers that have the eagle on their grips are better finished and overal better looking than the other "made in germany" walthers

maybe thats the true mark that it was fully made in germany?

although I have been hearing the same sort of grumblings about sig sauer doing exactly the same thing with their guns now, hence my interest in the 230 and not the 232, plus I like the lower profile sights of the first version, I mean I can shoot pretty damn well with minimal sights on the 49 bodguard as long as the grips long enough for my hand to properly grasp the frame of the gun.

and I mean hitting clay pigeons at 25 yards well in DA with the 49, the benefit of 20/15 vision I guess and the good finger grove PSG grips that came with the gun that the cop put on before me, it was a little used, often worn trade in


its just as well I was having trouble convincing myself to like them, something about it just seemed off like the para ordinance and auto ordinance before it


hmm interesting gun, do they make a proper fully blued version of it?

also what about the Bernardelli model 60 .380? does anyone know anything about that ones reputation?

kavinsky i think they do but im not 100 with it.. but yes very interesting piece.

I don't know much about the Bersa .380.
I own a Walther PPK/S (Interarms) and a Mauser HSC, both from about 1981 and both are good shooters.
HSC is a little picky on hollow point ammo but the PPK/S not so much.
PPK/S a lot more accurate at 25 yds. I know neither one is a target shooter. Designed for self defense at 15 to 20 ft.
I am always suprised how accurate the PPK/S has been to be such a small pistol.

James

I read thru this rather quickly, but I have my mention. The AMT Backup .380. Fits in the palm of the smallest hands, and made in U.S.A., well " was " anyway. I am always looking for the .45 AMT, but they carry quite a price tag in my area, WHEN you can find one. My second vote is for the Bersa. A true like or hate brand, but I know more that like them than hate them many times over. I would not hesitate to buy a Bersa. , 26

S&W Bodyguard 380 has a manual safety.

My wife's gun is a Sig 232, used to be my BUG on patrol, until I took her to the range to teach her how to shoot. She went through a mag, then turned to me and said "this is my gun now, you have to go get something else".

It's big for a 380, and it doesn't reliably feed hollowpoints, specifically the Remington Golden Saber. She keeps it loaded with Pow'R'ball and it's 100% reliable with it.

North American Arms NAA-380 GUARDIAN GUARD .380ACP

Some of the new Guardians come with the "Internal gun lock" like the S&W revolvers. BUT I've got a few in my shop without the lock. Each comes with two 6-round magazines. It is heavier than a J-Frame 642 when loaded. I kept one for myself last month, shot about 50 rounds in it so far. Shoots to point of aim at 7-yards. Recoil is stout. Not for first time shooters. Not for casual plinking either.

It also just seems so heavy when carried in a pocket holster. The S&W .380 is lighter.

I don't know if I'll keep the Guardian..... mostly because I'm much more used to the J-Frame .38's.

And check out this chart:
North American Arms NAA-380 GUARDIAN GUARD .380ACP

Here are two pictures of the two .380s I have that are steel framed guns, one is a FN 1922 that my dad used in the WWII and brought home and Browning 1910 that I bought in the 70s.





Both are excellent guns for concealment.

Rule 303

Believe it or not, the wife and I both have Taurus TCP .380's. After 200 or so rounds to break in mine is ultra reliable and shoots almost any ammo to POA with decent accuracy. The wife's needed the extractor replaced and a new magazine before it settled down to run like a champ. You can buy them for $230 new.

I wish my Browning BDA .380 (Yes I know it is basically a Beretta 84 with an enclosed slide!) fit in a pocket. It is beautifully crafted, reliable and fun to shoot. Never gets carried though.

Ruger is selling their LCP with the laser for around $370 now. Hard to beat that for the dough.

still it does sound like it does what its set out to do and does it well from the accounts here and I'm certainly not a novice shooter.

so far what I'm thinking is the guardian .380 and the LCR for pocket carry or back up duty and maybe something like the
blued Sig 230 for range/ holster carrry as I can probably negate the possibile sticky feel of the alloy frame with some wood grips, although I'd want to find something along the lines of the gloss walther PPK plastic Grips for it with a brown PPK look going for it like bond had with his PPK's in the early films as it gives it a nice contrast that I really like

stainless is out though as I'm REALLY not a fan of stainless pistols and I'm about to make my one and only exception to that rule with the 645 for a full sized pistol if nothing comes out of vltors mouth in the next month or so regarding the bren ten.

or go for the PPK/S or the bersa as honestly I just really like the look of the old PPK design.

I'm not really a fan of it, it reminds me too much of the PPS and the new line of walther pistols which I dont really care for.




the amt idea kind of makes me nervious as I've heard their the ones that are known for having stainless steel gailing issues as they supposedly use the same hardness steel for both the slide and the frame causing the galing issue and my gunsmith has openly called them ****, something I've never heard him say about anything in that shop or about anything really, auto ordinance included.



actually with the FN1922, I found an old photo of my grandfather with one from the war, must have been his issued sidearm from the luftwaffe, sadly he didnt keep it and chucked it in a lake after the war as he didnt want to get caught with it.

anyways is their any real danger of the safety being clicked off accidentally with the FN1922 or the 1910 there from pocket carry like that guy said he felt could happen with his colt 1908 .380?

If you don't mind my asking sir, why must it be made of all steel?

I noticed that the beretta 85 cheetah started to feel really uncomfortable in my hand after awhile of snap cap practice with it while the other guns in collection didnt, all of which are either poylmer (two glocks, a M17L 9mm M23 .40, and ruger 22/45) or steel (smith 49. 29, K22/17 dan wesson 357, ruger ect ect) save for one of the browning 25 acp's

and there was no other reason for it to do that besides it being alloy framed, as the checkering was fine, the grips werent too sharp although they were plastic which could have been a contributing factor to it heating up in my hand like it did and feeling sticky

and then I picked up my old steel kimber and came to that conclusion as I've picked up the kimber and the glock many times for snap cap practice and they've never felt like that after practicing with them

plus its happened on range trips with it before, I kept wondering okay why dont I like the feel of this gun right now, something is really off about it while when I picked it up at the gunshop I really liked it as much as the steel framed sig 232 I was trying on for size all of those years ago.

and I find that old steel and wood guns just have a look that polymer guns just dont have hence the preference, plus the polymer ones I knew of dont have any sort of external safety like the kahr arms, a real put off in a pocket gun kind of use, atleast with a semi auto unless the triggers heavy enough.

plus I dont care for kahr arms in any regard and they were the only ones I knew of who dont have the glock trigger system that I'm trying to get away from with the glock 17L and 23 as I've thought about getting rid of them many times for that trigger system as its starting to bug me while shooting them now.