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  #1  
Old 07-05-2012, 02:23 PM
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Default Shooting 45 Colt in a 410 shotgun ??

Yesterday I was asked if it was possible/safe to shoot a 45 Colt cartridge in a 410 shotgun.

Friend knew about the Judge and the older 45/410 barrels for the Contender. He thought since they used both cartridges he should be able to shoot 45 Colt ammo in his 410. He understood that the lack of rifling would seriously affect accuracy.

My thought/concern is that 45 Colt cartridges are probably loaded at HIGHER pressures than 410 shells.

Has anybody tried this. Does anybody know of any relevant comments/tests.

Bekeart

Last edited by Bekeart; 07-05-2012 at 02:44 PM. Reason: correcting typos
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Old 07-05-2012, 02:26 PM
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I don't know the answer to the question on pressure but I'd be concerned about the choke in a shotgun barrel. Most 410's that I've been around are choked full and I'd think that'd be a might restrictive to run a solid bullet through. When you compare the wall thickness of a shotgun barrel to a rifle or pistol barrel, they're might thin. If it were mine, I wouldn't do it. JMO.

Last edited by mtelkhntr; 07-05-2012 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 07-05-2012, 03:28 PM
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No rifling, and anything other than open cylinder. Why?
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Old 07-05-2012, 03:28 PM
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.45 Colt ammo has a bullet nominally .455". A .410 is the only shotgun made by caliber, not gauge. That is why it has a decimal point ahead of the number, whereas 12 gauge, etc. does not. It should measure .410 inch. What does that tell you?

Also, the steel in many older .410's is not intended to handle high pressures.

I do have a very old (1920's) .410 by Iver Johnson or H&R that is marked for .410-.44 ammo. I have no idea what .44 they meant. .44 Russian and Special bullets should be about .429-inch. But I'd never risk firing them in that gun, still less .44/40, which is nominally .427 inch.

If you want more power in a .410 than shot gives, fire slugs, not pistol ammo. (I think there are .410 slugs ?)

I am not an admirer of the Judge and the Governor type arms. As far as I'm concerned, they should be impeached.
But I'm pretty sure they are made to handle much higher pressures than shotguns are.
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Old 07-05-2012, 03:30 PM
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410 shotgun is called "410" because it is .410" diameter.

The chamber of a 410 shotgun is the same, except for length, as a 45 Colt. Therefore a 45 Colt will fit nicely in the chamber of a 410 shotgun.

When they make a gun that is advertised as "chambered for both 410 shotshell and 45 Colt", they put a .452" barrel on it. The slightly oversize barrel does not hurt the shotshell at all.

But a shotgun that is just "410 shotgun" chambered has a barrel measuring .410 (actually, all four of the ones I have are about .403 at the muzzle, because of the choke). If you shoot a .452 bullet down that .410 barrel, it is going to rupture.

Checking Hodgdon's reloading page, the highest pressures I found for a 410 were 12000 psi. Ruger-type 45 loads go in the 30,000 cup range. Regular 45 Colt loads max out at 14000 psi.

Guns made to shoot both are proofed for the higher 45 Colt rounds.

So, you have a shotgun. Proofed for 12000 psi shotshells. You stick a 14000 cup 54 colt shell in it. Fire it. The .040" oversize bullet does not go easily down the barrel, causing pressures to spike. Doubling. Even tripling. Before the oversize bullet blows the muzzle of the gun off, trying to squeeze through the choke, the spiking pressures have caused the chamber to explode.

The chamber. That's three inches in front of your face and three inches behind your left hand, right?

STUPID IDEA.
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Old 07-05-2012, 03:31 PM
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I'm pretty sure it would work, not sure how safe it is.

There is a Youtube video I can't link from this computer, but it is called "The Little .410 Shotgun that could", in several parts. Some guys try to blow up a cheap Brazilian .410 by shooting everything that could fit into the chamber, and it held together - .454s, 460s, and more. I think the stock finally breaks, but the action holds. It's pretty impressive.

The "why" of it is a whole different question.
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Last edited by sigp220.45; 07-05-2012 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 07-05-2012, 03:33 PM
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Texas Star, long long ago they made 44/40 shot loads. That was the father of the 410. So some of the older 410s were marked as 410/44, so that you knew you could use the 44/40 Long shot loads, that were still on the market.
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Old 07-05-2012, 03:42 PM
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Be advised that revolvers in .45 Colt were once bored for .455" bullets. Late ones are often .452", as with .45 auto ammo.

This accounts for the discrepancy in .45 Colt caliber in my post above and in Alpo's. The bore may be either size, depending on manufacturer and time of manufacture.

SIG P-220's post about the cheap Brazilian .410 amazes me! But I wouldn't try that stuff at home, folks. I wouldn't even try it on Discovery TV. There is a lot of steel in a single shot's chamber. Maybe that explains it. I suspect that a repeatimg shotgun like a Winchester M-42 or the Remington M-870 or M-1100 may have marginal steel thickness in the chambers, which are a part of the barrels. Also, Remington was sued for the quality of the barrels in their shotguns some years ago. They used something called marraging (sp?) steel, which blew faster than better steels if there was any problem, like a bore obstruction. This is my understanding of the matter, based on what was published at the time. A suitable engineer or Remington spokesperson could no doubt explain better. I believe they changed their steel as a result of this class action lawsuit. I have no reason to doubt the safety of my M-870 12 gauge, bought new in 2004.

Last edited by Texas Star; 07-05-2012 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 07-05-2012, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpo View Post
Texas Star, long long ago they made 44/40 shot loads. That was the father of the 410. So some of the older 410s were marked as 410/44, so that you knew you could use the 44/40 Long shot loads, that were still on the market.
Alpo-

Wow! Thanks! I've wondered about that ever since I got that gun from my grandfather when I was six!

No one I asked ever knew, including gunsmiths. (I have come to realize that many "gunsmiths" are unworthy of the name.)
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Old 07-05-2012, 05:01 PM
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While they don't send a projectile down the barrel, I shoot .45 Colt blanks in my Century .410 during the shotgun stages in Cowboy Mounted Shooting; they bust the balloons just fine! I have also shot .410 birdshot and Winchester PDX .410 in it; I don't see the need to try to shoot a .45 Colt bullet down the barrel.
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Old 07-05-2012, 05:56 PM
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Default THANKS to all

THANKS to all.

Overpressure and Oversize - Don't try this at home.

Just called friend and told him. Not only NO, **** NO!!

Bekeart
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Old 07-05-2012, 09:16 PM
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I don't know about .45 Colt but when I was 18 I bought a .44 Spec. and my 15 yr. old brother had a single barrel .410 and we shot several of the pistol shells in the shotgun. We didn't have any .410 slugs and we figgered that big bullet flopping around would do more damage than #6 shot. We never shot an animal so we don't know for sure. A .38 S&W with a wore out barrel that throws the bullet sideways will shoot through a 2 in. beef roast and a 1/4 in. piece of plywood at 10 ft. Larry
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:36 PM
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Here are the videos of the .410 that could:

Lost Arts Part 5: The Little .410 Shotgun that Could - YouTube

Lost Arts Part 6: The Ultimate .410 Shotgun - YouTube

Pretty amazing stuff. They mike the bore before and after, and it stays .387 even after the gun is fired repeatedly with .454 Casull rounds and .444 Marlins.
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Old 07-05-2012, 11:13 PM
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I have this very early T/C with the 45/410 barrel. It has a choke for the .410 that you take off when you shoot it in .45 colt.

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Old 07-05-2012, 11:14 PM
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There are a lot of odd chambering mismatches that can be made to fire, but it usually isn't a safe idea to go with.
I was asked again recently about using 30-06 in a Winchester Model 42.
I thought that one had gone away, I guessed wrong.
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:20 PM
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You'd have to be dumb to try a .45 Colt in a .410....although take the shot out and it'll launch an Easton aluminum arrow right smartly....hold my beer while I show you
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