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  #1  
Old 10-23-2012, 07:08 AM
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Default Straight wall rifle cases?

I'm trying to figure what cartridges are a true straight walled case. I want a rifle that I can run the case through just like it's a pistol case. I've read that the .45-70 isn't really straight and that it has a slight taper. Is this the case with the .444 Marlin as well? Why the heck didn't Marlin ever offer a .357 Maximum lever action??? Are there any modern rifle cartridges that are really true straight wall cases? Big Horn Armory offers a lever action in .460 and that would fit the ticket I guess. And they don't seem easy to find but Ruger offers the No. 1 in .460 as well. I just keep thinking there has to be something out there I haven't heard of that would fit the bill.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:24 AM
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I believe Rossi offers a 454c lever gun, and I've heard NEF offers a 500sw. Maybe some of the AR thumpers are straight walled. the 450 Bushmaster and the 50 Beowulf I believe might be.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:57 AM
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I do not know what you are looking for, but the 45-70 does not have a get deal of taper. Lots of reloading info and bullets available to load from mild to wild. Also lots of choices in rifles to fire it in.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:42 AM
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40-70 Sharps Straight,40-90 Sharps Straight, 405 Winchester, might be a few more. The 405 Winchester is as close to a 40-70 S.S. as you can get, and some rifles are chambered in "40-70 S.S." but chambers are cut to accept the thicker rim.Brass and dies are available for about any of the old Sharps cartridges and with some work with modern powders and modern rifles they shoot pretty good.

Last edited by longranger; 10-23-2012 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:35 AM
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I see the .50 Beowulf comes as a four die Lee kit for reloading so that's for sure a straight wall case.

The .405 Win looks good but that and the others seem really limiting in finding a rifle for them. Not saying it couldn't be done but I'm not sure I'm willing to be that limited.

The Rossi .454 does look interesting. I know lots of guys swear the Rossi levers are good stuff if you are willing to tune them a little.
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:48 AM
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A quick look through Lyman #49 shows that all the visually straight rifle cartridges in current production actually have some taper.
If you want a truly straight case you will be shooting a revolver round in a rifle.

Marlin does not make a .357 Maximum lever action because it is too long for the 94 and they would not sell enough to bother modifying the 336 for it.

What's the objective here?
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:58 AM
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The objective is easier reloading and less wear on the cases for longer shooting life. I hadn't taken the cartridge length into consideration for the 1894's action. The make the or made the .35 Rem in the 336 and I can't see how that was ever a hot seller for them but then with the demise of the .357 Max in revolvers maybe it would be a lead balloon anyways. Right now I'm reading up on the Ruger NO. 1 in .460 mag. I see H&R offers the Handi in .500 but would rather have the .460 over the .500 in a single shot rifle.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximumbob54 View Post
I want a rifle that I can run the case through just like it's a pistol case. I've read that the .45-70 isn't really straight and that it has a slight taper.
If you only shoot the ammo in one gun, cartridges such as the 45-70 don't need to be full length resized every time. Just expand them enough to allow bullet seating, and use a roll crimp.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:23 PM
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Marlin 1894cs can be had in 357 or 44 mag
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowart View Post
If you only shoot the ammo in one gun, cartridges such as the 45-70 don't need to be full length resized every time. Just expand them enough to allow bullet seating, and use a roll crimp.
I thought that was only true of bolt actions? I've been told that for everything else you need to FL size or the action wouldn'tclose all the way as only the bolt action has that camming motion that shoves the case all the way inward.

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Marlin 1894cs can be had in 357 or 44 mag
Yes, I'm just looking for something that will reach a little farther and with more thump at the end still. The .44 has some reach with the right bullet.

I guess I'm looking for a straight wall that can at least come close to what you can do with the .45-70 in that it has the reach, the energy, and can be used for either target shooting or some hunting opportunies that aren't for in close only but at least medium range.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:20 PM
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The Rossi 454 Casull, I have one, very very nice as you can see. And shoots fine, too.









And some load data, I hid the powder charge as these are my own loads.

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Old 10-24-2012, 12:05 AM
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I was not aware that a straight case was needed for long life.

I shoot .40-65 which is strongly tapered from the same head diameter as .45-70 with full length sizing at every cycle. The only case loss has been from bending a few case mouths not well aligned with the die.
Likewise .38-55 which has less but not zero taper and I am still using brass bought with the rifle about 15 years ago.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:52 AM
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I have a Taylor Arms Quigley Sharps replica in 45-70. I neck size only, no lube with a Lyman neck sizing die. Use Saeco 420 gr gas check cast bullet. Haven't lost a case yet to metal fatigue.
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Old 10-24-2012, 02:33 AM
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Most modern cartridges have a bit of taper as it is expected that they will find their way into a semi-auto weapon. Even with a bolt gun a touch of case taper eases extraction.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sasu View Post
The Rossi 454 Casull, I have one, very very nice as you can see. And shoots fine, too.

(pics snipped)

And some load data, I hid the powder charge as these are my own loads.
That is a darn fine looking carbine with one heck of a cartridge. How far out can you shoot with decent accuracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
I was not aware that a straight case was needed for long life.

I shoot .40-65 which is strongly tapered from the same head diameter as .45-70 with full length sizing at every cycle. The only case loss has been from bending a few case mouths not well aligned with the die.
Likewise .38-55 which has less but not zero taper and I am still using brass bought with the rifle about 15 years ago.
I'm mainly talking about having to full length resize which in retrospect is usually only demanded by auto loaders. The brass starts to stretch from the case web or rather just above it and I've had one case head rip free from me reloading too many times. So my thinking was just that if I did have to size the whole case then maybe a carbide full length sizing would last longer than a bottle neck that grows in length from sizing.

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Originally Posted by Engineer1911 View Post
I have a Taylor Arms Quigley Sharps replica in 45-70. I neck size only, no lube with a Lyman neck sizing die. Use Saeco 420 gr gas check cast bullet. Haven't lost a case yet to metal fatigue.
I tried neck sizing only for my 336 in .30-30 and that wasn't happening. I had to squeeze the heck out of the lever to get the thing to close all the way. Maybe some lever designs use the lever better to force the case into the chamber better than others.

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Most modern cartridges have a bit of taper as it is expected that they will find their way into a semi-auto weapon. Even with a bolt gun a touch of case taper eases extraction.
Very true. The .45-70 did work pretty well in 1877 Colt Gatling Gun enough for them to start making them again!!!

1877 Bulldog Gatling Gun

I can't even imagine being behind one...
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:20 PM
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I really think if you dont want to go with the 45-70, 444 Marlin is your best choice and out of a good rifle you can get some pretty amazing ballistics.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:34 PM
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I don't see any carbide dies for the .444 Marlin. Are the cases too tough to size and carbide would crack? I've read that about other tough cases like .475 and other high pressure loads.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximumbob54 View Post


.... The .45-70 did work pretty well in 1877 Colt Gatling Gun enough for them to start making them again!!!

1877 Bulldog Gatling Gun

I can't even imagine being behind one...
Can you imagine being in front of one?
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Old 10-24-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximumbob54 View Post
I don't see any carbide dies for the .444 Marlin. Are the cases too tough to size and carbide would crack? I've read that about other tough cases like .475 and other high pressure loads.
444 is basically a long 44 magnum, so if all else fails you could probably use 44 dies if for nothing else neck sizing.
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Old 10-24-2012, 01:12 PM
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Can you imagine being in front of one?
Ha, ha, pass.

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Originally Posted by 29aholic View Post
444 is basically a long 44 magnum, so if all else fails you could probably use 44 dies if for nothing else neck sizing.
I think I'm reverting back once again to the .460 as they show carbide dies available and that is one heck of a magnum in a revolver than I bet a No. 1 really wakes up. If H&R would wake up and offer one in a more affordable single shot I would try that instead even though the No. 1 is a stunning looking rifle.
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Old 10-24-2012, 01:58 PM
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Hard to beat a #1 Ruger
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
I was not aware that a straight case was needed for long life.

I shoot .40-65 which is strongly tapered from the same head diameter as .45-70 with full length sizing at every cycle. The only case loss has been from bending a few case mouths not well aligned with the die.
Likewise .38-55 which has less but not zero taper and I am still using brass bought with the rifle about 15 years ago.
I too shoot .40-65 in a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps replica. I only size down approx. 1 inch on the case, and I have annealed all my cases. They have lasted me a long time.
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:40 PM
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Why no mention of the .50 Government? Its just a straight wall .45-70. You can easily expand them from the smaller cases. I only mention that because out of stupidity I missed a Browning 1886 that someone had bored to .50 Government. I didn't pay attention because I already had a pair of the them, a rifle and a carbine. Had I realized what it was, I'd have snagged it in an instant. Foolish boy.
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:10 PM
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I've never even heard of .50 Gov and will have to look that up.

From what little I've now read, it has about as much taper as the .45-70 so it isn't what I'm looking for either. Awesome old school thumper though.

Last edited by Maximumbob54; 10-24-2012 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:18 PM
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Default Re-inventing the wheel

It seems to me - - -

Look again at the 308 Win round. You can find lever guns made by Browning, Savage, & Winchester, all for less $$$ than the Ruger #1.

1) Buy a set of carbide 30 carbine dies for neck sizing.
2) With once fired brass, full length size, trim to minimum trim length, & load.
3) Neck size after that 'till the brass reaches it's max case length.

If loaded moderately, you'll get many loads before full length sizing is needed again.

The plus side of 308 W. is; avalibility of afordable components (you can shoot the 308 W. till the brass needs FL size the 2nd time, throw away & buy new cheaper than buying one of the less common calibers mentioned. 308 W. will have good rifle ballistics for longer range shots.

As for a handgun to match, settle for a 30 carbine, you already will have dies for it
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:19 PM
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Can you imagine being in front of one?
Yours for the low price of $49,999.00!!
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:32 PM
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If you'd consider a single shot, and are worried about using up brass, just get a muzzle loader.

my cheap CVA shots 150gr worth of pellets and a 300gr 44 cal sabot, so its probably the equivalent of a 444+p

Last edited by forresth; 10-24-2012 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cussedemgun View Post
It seems to me - - -

Look again at the 308 Win round. You can find lever guns made by Browning, Savage, & Winchester, all for less $$$ than the Ruger #1.

1) Buy a set of carbide 30 carbine dies for neck sizing.
2) With once fired brass, full length size, trim to minimum trim length, & load.
3) Neck size after that 'till the brass reaches it's max case length.

If loaded moderately, you'll get many loads before full length sizing is needed again.

The plus side of 308 W. is; avalibility of afordable components (you can shoot the 308 W. till the brass needs FL size the 2nd time, throw away & buy new cheaper than buying one of the less common calibers mentioned. 308 W. will have good rifle ballistics for longer range shots.

As for a handgun to match, settle for a 30 carbine, you already will have dies for it
I have a M700 in .308 Win but I'm only now starting to reload for it. I'm just looking for something straight wall for something new. Most of my buddies keep telling me to get an H&R Handi in .44 magnum if I want to be cheap or search out Winnie or Marlin if I want to spend more. I would like something that stretches out more than that though. They do make a Handi in .500 but the .460 seems like it would be more ideal and be able to run .454 and .45 Colt even if free bore might get rough with accuracy.

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Yours for the low price of $49,999.00!!
I figure if you're going to dream, dream big!!!

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Originally Posted by forresth View Post
If you'd consider a single shot, and are worried about using up brass, just get a muzzle loader.

my cheap CVA shots 150gr worth of pellets and a 300gr 44 cal sabot, so its probably the equivalent of a 444+p
You aren't the first one to mention BP but I just know nothing about them.
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:04 PM
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Do the math before selecting a chambering!!

I am 99% positive a .243 or a .308 will hands down beat the cost of a 45-70 or any other straight wall case.

You may get a few less reloads per case with a .243 or a .308, but, the per case price of the bottle neck brass will be so much less you will be far ahead.

Also, you will use less powder (a factor these days), and, the bullets will be far less in cost for bottle necks.

If straight case chambering were cost effective, everybody would be shooting them.

In the lower 48, the .308 is tough to beat all around, and east of the Mississippi, the .243 is right up there!!

We haven't even mentioned the poor bullet trajectory of the 45-70!!

For lowest total cost over the life of the rifle, as well as enhanced user satisfaction, get a .308.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:03 PM
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.444 Marlin is not just a lengthened .44 Magnum. It is, like other apparently straight rifle cases, a bit tapered.

I would not let preconceived notions about case life affect my choice of caliber. I pick the caliber for the job it is to do when shooting and make the reloading process serve that aim.

If you are going to shoot a lever action, automatic, pump, straight pull, or anything else but a bolt action or strong single shot, best figure on full length sizing.
The brass will last a lot longer than you seem to think.
And the cost of rifle carbide dies will cover a lot of replacement brass.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximumbob54 View Post
You aren't the first one to mention BP but I just know nothing about them.
buy one and you will learn.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:02 AM
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"1) Buy a set of carbide 30 carbine dies for neck sizing" (for loading .308 cases).

Doubt that it would work. .30 Carbine has a pronounced taper and one can't get the .308 neck up into the area of the die where it will be sized. A .32 ACP die may work, but far better to just get a .30 neck sizing only die. It is designed to work with most .30 rifle cartridges, as it does not body size. Neck size dies are made in most calibers. I have them in .22 (I use the same one for both .223 and .220 Swift), .257, 6.5mm, and .30. Of course, one does need a seating die also. The Lee Loader sets (ones you use a hammer with) all neck size only in bottleneck rifle cartridge calibers.
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:59 AM
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Once again, I have a Remington M700 in .308 and while it is a fine rifle this is all about just having something different. Everything big bore I own I cast my own bullets for them and that is lightyears cheaper for ammo and I do it more for fun factor and bullet selection from molds than I do to save money anymore. So if I do go .45 or .50 then I will be bullet mold shopping yet again for something that grabs my interest and looks exciting rather than really worry over cost.

And it seems that all the longer case rifle cartridges really do all have some kind of slight taper to them. So that's pretty much a wash as far as ever being able to use a carbide die on them.

Which that leads me back again to the .460 S&W Magnum cartridge. Everything I've read about it says it's a screamer that's flatter shooting than the .500 and still has all kinds of energy even at 200 yards. I would guess it has a much lower ballistic coefficeint than any true rifle bullet would have but if the various revolvers can be long range tack drivers in .460 then a rifle should perk it up in both velocity, powder burn, and I would guess again at accuracy.

So since this is all in hobby fun factor and I'm not trying to enter Palma with a hangun load I'm only putting this as serious as a fun factor at the range.

And I'm really liking some of these inline muzzle loaders that have rifled barrels and shoot sabot loads. That looks like a much easier learning curve and ease of cleaning than the real deal original designs.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rburg View Post
Why no mention of the .50 Government? Its just a straight wall .45-70. You can easily expand them from the smaller cases. I only mention that because out of stupidity I missed a Browning 1886 that someone had bored to .50 Government. I didn't pay attention because I already had a pair of the them, a rifle and a carbine. Had I realized what it was, I'd have snagged it in an instant. Foolish boy.
If you mean the 50-70, I don't think you can make them from 45-70s. The base diameter of the 50-70 is .565 inch, while the 45-70 is .500 inch. I wish they could be made from 45-70s, as I have three 50-70s: an 1866 trapdoor (the kind with no receiver), a Sharps and a rolling block. I even checked the 500 S&W Magnum, and it won't work for 50-70s either. Starline 50-70 cases aren't cheap and Bertrams cost like they're made out of sterling silver.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:00 AM
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If you open a .45-70 case up as straight as you can reasonably expect good extraction, you have a .475 Turnbull.
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
If you open a .45-70 case up as straight as you can reasonably expect good extraction, you have a .475 Turnbull.
Looks like a bottleneck to me?

475 Turnbull - rifle replicas by Turnbull Mfg. Co.; Turnbull has spent the last several years designing a cartridge for vintage lever action rifles, specifically the Model 1886 Winchester rifle
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