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  #1  
Old 12-07-2013, 05:24 AM
Smithsrevenge Smithsrevenge is offline
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Default Lets discuss a shotgun.

I want one. End of story. Thanks for reading............


Okay not really haha I do want one, for I do not own one as of yet.

I was up at a local watering hole/gun shop last night and I found something I had never seen, nor heard of.......but I liked it :-D

I found a CZ shotgun...........thats right..........CZ apparently makes a very good looking 12ga. 3" pump, with a 8 rnd tube, synthetic full sock and pistol grip

LGS wants $300 for it used. Books for $350-$400 new online. However this one seems unfired, doesnt even have pellet lines in the barrel. Also comes with glo fiber sights.

Question being. Should I get this? I dont have a lot of money to spend so its either going to be this or a maverick 88 by mossberg haha

Anyone own this shotgun? the model is the 612 HC-P

Here's a link. What ya think?
CZ-USA -> 612 HC-P

and yes they used the word zombie in the description :/

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Old 12-07-2013, 05:54 AM
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I would buy a Remington 870 and forget the others.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:08 AM
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What are you plans for it? For home defense there are a ton of $300-450 rigs out there from Remington, Winchester, Mossberg, etc. Actually same for field guns (both new and used). That seems like just an ok deal to me.

I'm not saying the CZ would be bad, but I'm not familiar with their pump guns. I think of them more for bolt rifles, auto and 2x shotguns.

I have a feeling that gun will be there in a few days if you wanna do some additonal searching and researching.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.
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Old 12-07-2013, 09:50 AM
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it dont look bad got a pic rail . p preferance i got a mosberg 590 8 shot for home protection . and a stoger to shoot skeet. its always free to look and hold see how it feels in your hands.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:04 AM
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Remington 870 Police, for a home defense firearm. I picked one up a new one a year or so ago with wood stocks, which just looks nicer to me than the black synthetics. Came with the 3 shot extended magazine tube. Presently it's sitting 'at the ready' loaded with Hornady Zombie Max 00.

Also picked up a lightly used 11-87 Police with wood stocks to keep the 870 company. Added a three round Remington magazine tube extension to it. There is a lot of debate about semi-auto vs pump for home defense weapons. Good points on both sides.

Latest addition is another 11-87 Special Purpose. Lightly used, just a bit of surface rust (0000 and Kroil should take care of it), and a ribbed barrel with a screw-in full choke. Haven't decided the future of that firearm. May go 'tactical', may go 'practical'. It does need to be broken down, cleaned, inspected, etc. After the Holidays. Way too much on my plate already.

I've been keeping an eye out for a used Browning Citori. My son shoots clays, and it'd be fun to go with him.

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Old 12-07-2013, 10:11 AM
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Was told by a friend of mine the Pump shotgun is the was to go for home defense. The reason why is that the second most feared sound to someone is someone racking the slide. The first is a dogs bark. So in his and mine opinion if for home defense the buy whatever pump shotgun you can afford.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:22 AM
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Was told by a friend of mine the Pump shotgun is the was to go for home defense.
The most compelling semi vs pump argument I heard, was based upon the fact some shots may occur from 'the hip'. Without a decent shoulder (or other) anchor, the un-restrained recoil from a semi-auto, may not be enough to eject and chamber the next round. Not a problem with a pump action.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:23 AM
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What a disappointment. I thought for sure this thread was going to be about a 19th Century Japanese warlord.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:28 AM
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Offer them $250 and bring a copy of this thread.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:33 AM
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youse guys has a watering hole/ gun shop?????
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:38 AM
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I thought for sure this thread was going to be about a 19th Century Japanese warlord.
Didn't read the book, but loved the mini-series!
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:40 AM
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I've got an old Remington 870 and an older Ithaca Model 37.

I figure I'm all set in the pump 12 gauge department.

I've owned a couple of CZs...but I rode them in motocross races back in the day.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:42 AM
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What a disappointment. I thought for sure this thread was going to be about a 19th Century Japanese warlord.
Ya mean "shogun" has nothing to do with Japanese guys in trenchcoats on the subway?
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:54 AM
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At the Conservation Club I belong to, there has been a great deal of problems with East European over/under, side-by-side, combo guns and pumps that have the CZ roll marks but were actually made in Turkey by Hulu (sp). One of the guys from my High School class had a beautiful 16 Ga. SxS, It made 3 trips and 2 replacements before he gave up but they do not hold up. A gunsmith of the old school could keep one running by re-hardening all of the little parts inside. As said above for a pump Remington 870 or Mossberg 500. For an Over/Under a used Browning Citori. For a Side by Side get a Savage/Stevens 311 (or the older 310). For a semi-auto, it gets real complicated!!! BUT the important thing is GET A SHOTGUN. Ivan
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:34 PM
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You can't go wrong with a pump shotgun in a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 for home defense. I have used both with the Remington 870 in police mode and for personal use is my Mossberg 500. I prefer the Mossberg since it shoots with a tighter pattern and is easier to repair and service than the Remington. You can spruce up either shotgun with a plethora of accessories on the market. I am in the process of adding a scope, picatiny rail, ammo carrier on the trigger assembly and extended cheek piece on the buttstock. Again, you can modify to suit your individual preference.

Nick
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:52 PM
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I like the 870 myself and have their Marine Magnum version now for home protection. I also have a Mossberg and Ithaca but like the 870 the best. Police trade-ins can be had at a good price if you can find one.
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:00 PM
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What a disappointment. I thought for sure this thread was going to be about a 19th Century Japanese warlord.
Marshwheeling, you beat me by almost three hours...& I got up early today.

Hack, you need to read the book. Clavell has a unique talent for writing, with an ability to maintain the main plot with a bunch of sub plots, using dozens of characters & keeping them all fresh in your mind. I've enjoyed a lot of his books. Maybe you could call his style historical fiction for the way he weaves real people throughout history into his books.
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:59 PM
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Since you're willing to buy used, I would say take your time, look around, and you will find a good deal on a great shotgun. It's a buyer's market so don't be in a hurry. A lot of good used guns go on the market when hunting season ends and just before / after Christmas.

A good used pump should be easy to find, especially if you aren't married to the idea of getting a 3" magnum. For home defense, a 12 gauge chambered for 2-3/4 inch is more than enough. Heck, I would not want to get shot with target loads out of a 12 gauge, would you?

I also would not get hung up on all the tacticool options (extended magazines, etc.) A used gun with a lot of modifications begs the questions "Who did the mods? An expert or a clown?" "Why did someone go to all that trouble then sell it?" Anyways, my belief is "the less modified, the more reliable."

In your shoes, I would sure be on the look out for an American-manufactured gun. Older, non-magnums are usually very reasonable. Ivan's post contains some really sound advice. Personally, I have an older Fox/Savage double barrel. Someone did a very professional job cutting down the barrels and installing a recoil pad. There went the collector value, but gave me a very handy, rock solid, home defense gun at a very reasonable price.
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:49 PM
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I would buy a Remington 870 and forget the others.
+1. The older 870 Wingmasters are much smoother than the new Express, have nice wood and actual bluing. Cost is about the same as a new Express.

CZ O/Us are made by Huglu in Turkey. Reportedly they are well made. One guy on a shotgun forum I keep track of shoots trap with one and is up to 20,000 rounds without a problem, but I don't know about CZ pumps.

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Old 12-07-2013, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cballman View Post
Was told by a friend of mine the Pump shotgun is the was to go for home defense. The reason why is that the second most feared sound to someone is someone racking the slide. The first is a dogs bark. So in his and mine opinion if for home defense the buy whatever pump shotgun you can afford.
What about the sound of someone racking the bolt back on the AK?

That sound is one that many never forget.
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:28 PM
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Talking Go with the Maveric or the Mossberg 500

I don't know anything about the CZ Shogun (I always thought Shoguns were Japanese War Lords), but I do have both a Maveric and the Mossberg 500 and they are absolutely reliable, and high quality, especially for the money.

The older Remington 870's were fine shotguns, but their quality has been going down hill for some time. Mossberg on the other hand is one of the few manufacturers that is actually improving their guns each year.

If buying new go with Mossberg or Maveric. If buying 10 years old or older then go with the 870. Locally the Maveric is available for under $200 at Academy. I recently picked up a new Mossberg 500, (7+1)off Gun Acution for $313, new, including shipping and transfer fee. For the price these are the best shotguns out there.

Actually if buying new I would prefer the Mossberg to the Remington 870 even if the Remington was not so over priced.
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:01 PM
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Nothing tells an unwanted vistor he's made a mistake more than an old short barreled Winchester Model 12. This one was made in 1946.



There's still plenty of them out there to be found to. Ask about it's slamfire feature.
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:14 PM
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Was told by a friend of mine the Pump shotgun is the was to go for home defense. The reason why is that the second most feared sound to someone is someone racking the slide. The first is a dogs bark. So in his and mine opinion if for home defense the buy whatever pump shotgun you can afford.
Sounds like all you need is a recording of a shell being racked home in a pump shotgun and the barks of a couple of big dogs. No need to actually buy a gun or keep a dog to feed and care for.

I on the other hand keep a round in the chamber so I don't get to rack one home. I just have slide the safety off and pull the trigger. I will probably get sued for not providing an adequate warning should I ever have to use it.

At least it is not yet a law that you have to keep the chamber empty so the racking a shell home will provide fair warning to burglars that you are armed. No doubt some attorney somewhere is trying to write such a law.
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Flash View Post
Since you're willing to buy used, I would say take your time, look around, and you will find a good deal on a great shotgun. It's a buyer's market so don't be in a hurry. A lot of good used guns go on the market when hunting season ends and just before / after Christmas.

A good used pump should be easy to find, especially if you aren't married to the idea of getting a 3" magnum. For home defense, a 12 gauge chambered for 2-3/4 inch is more than enough. Heck, I would not want to get shot with target loads out of a 12 gauge, would you?

I also would not get hung up on all the tacticool options (extended magazines, etc.) A used gun with a lot of modifications begs the questions "Who did the mods? An expert or a clown?" "Why did someone go to all that trouble then sell it?" Anyways, my belief is "the less modified, the more reliable."

In your shoes, I would sure be on the look out for an American-manufactured gun. Older, non-magnums are usually very reasonable. Ivan's post contains some really sound advice. Personally, I have an older Fox/Savage double barrel. Someone did a very professional job cutting down the barrels and installing a recoil pad. There went the collector value, but gave me a very handy, rock solid, home defense gun at a very reasonable price.
That reminds me time to hit the pawn shops for Christmas specials.

As for HD I don't go any bigger then 2 3/4 shells and some times the mini shell, it will give you more rounds in case your a bad shot, but they only work reliably in pump guns and not all of them. They need to be tested in the firearm you will use them in. I don't see a need for 3".
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Old 12-07-2013, 04:46 PM
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I'd just look around on the used gun racks for an Ithaca 37,,Rem870, Mossberg500 ect. Just a field gun is fine. Cut the bbl if you want to. I prefer a pump or even a double.
But what ever you choose shoot it often so that reliability does not worry you and familiarity with it is second nature.

Many used guns are little used or hunted with and the plain jane variety are priced right.
In an older gun,,or any for that matter, see if you can run a few Dummy Rounds through it to make sure feed and ejection is OK. Live fire all the better of course but that's rarely accessable to a buyer.

I'd skip the rails, sights, scopes, plastics, kick-stands and cup holders...just a simple shotgun.
At 10 or 15ft away from someone you feel is a fatal threat to you,, you're not going to need anything but your own nerves under control and basic skill w/it to survive.
Gadgets will be in the way.
2 3/4" shells are fine. How far is it accross your kitchen.

JMHO

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Old 12-07-2013, 06:16 PM
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The 870 is a great choice but I prefer the Mossberg 590A1.
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I would buy a Remington 870 and forget the others.
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Old 12-07-2013, 06:51 PM
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Ah so. I have a Beretta 1201 and a Mossberg 590. I have been keeping this Turk "Hatsan" Escort around for HD. 5+1, looks like the internals have chrome in places, slick, smooth and reliable. I think I paid $245 for it but I've seen them much cheaper. A gunshop commando told me it's a Benelli Nova without the Benelli markings or price. I like it. Joe
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:36 PM
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youse guys has a watering hole/ gun shop?????
We had something close. A little strip mall had a gun store, nudie bar, tackle shop and Industrial Liquidators (Hardware store on steroids) along with the usual liquor store & Asian restaurants. Heaven!
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:45 PM
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Nothing tells an unwanted vistor he's made a mistake more than an old short barreled Winchester Model 12. This one was made in 1946.



There's still plenty of them out there to be found to. Ask about it's slamfire feature.
Have some. Pretty awesome 101 year old model. Nice PIC.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:51 PM
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For home defense, unless one lives out in the country, #4 Buck will work very well and not over penetrate.

When I was a Deputy a City Policeman used a 20 gauge with 2 3/4" #4 Buck in a shoot out. I saw the body, lots of coverage, instant take down with one shot on the fella that was shooting at him.
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:01 PM
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Haha, sorry about the "shogun" typo that after a long time on here, I still dont know how to fix.

I would love to get a 870 express.......however used ones up here are a LOT of money, nowhere near my price point at this time. Saw one yesterday, dirty, scraped up, wanted $585 for it :/

Also this will be the first shotgun I own, I've fired many, trained with many but never owned one so odds are ill end up breaking it regardless. Kind of like my first 22 rifle :-D

I'm not using this for Home defense. I have my sig 229, smith 6906, and my class 3 AK if i need to defend my house, all which i would trust more than any shotgun seeing as I dont have too much experience with them.

I just want a pump shotgun :-D

thats my reasoning, nothing behind it other than I do not own one and want one lol. I want a pistol grip, because I know that it reduces the recoil a tad from personal experience, I want more than just a bead sight on it,their hard to identify and i just dislike them.

I like synthetic stocks, IDK why.

I really dont care about tacticool things. Anyone whos read my posts on the tactical mindset thread knows how much I even hate the word. , no muzzle brakes for me, no flashlights or lazer beams.

Just want a CHEAP fun 12ga that i can fire 00 buck out of, or even put a wide choke in and throw around some slugs. Not worried about breaking it, i plan on buying a benelli M4 when I win the lottery anyway so this will be a "alright" shotgun, dont need gold on the first buy :-D haha
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:06 PM
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The 870 express is a good tool.I had one.I think they cost $200-$225 back then :-O
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:12 PM
Kframerbluvr Kframerbluvr is offline
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Hit your flea markets and garage sales after Christmas. Check your "Trading Post" or similar local paper offering items for sale. You may come up with a Mossberg, 870, or Winchester 1200/1300 cheap, People tend to sell extra stuff after the holidays when the credit card bills roll in...
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:12 PM
Smithsrevenge Smithsrevenge is offline
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The 870 express is a good tool.I had one.I think they cost $200-$225 back then :-O
Yeah only thing I can get for that price is a severely used Maverick 88 lol wich is 260 brand new. But it feels cheap and junky to me.

Guns are expensive here in maine.

used sigs go for about $850.

Berettas are $500 used

6906's are $550-$650.

AR's are 900+ used.

its sad haha
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:13 PM
Kframerbluvr Kframerbluvr is offline
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Hit your flea markets and garage sales after Christmas. Check your "Trading Post" or similar local paper offering items for sale. You may come up with a Mossberg, 870, or Winchester 1200/1300 cheap. People tend to sell extra stuff after the holidays when the credit card bills roll in...
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:18 PM
Smithsrevenge Smithsrevenge is offline
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Hit your flea markets and garage sales after Christmas. Check your "Trading Post" or similar local paper offering items for sale. You may come up with a Mossberg, 870, or Winchester 1200/1300 cheap. People tend to sell extra stuff after the holidays when the credit card bills roll in...
Thats the sad part. Any "nice" shotgun in this state is $500 plus used. Been buying guns up here for 10+ years. Never see any under that price.

However I'm going to start checking with some friends, maybe someone has some unforseen bills they want to get rid of and will let one go in the $350 price range. :-D
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:28 PM
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I have one word: Wingmaster. As stated by several already, older models of this gun are still reasonable. They are among the best shotguns ever made, in fit, finish, and just plain shootability. There are more bells and whistles made for the 870 than just about any other shotgun, so your only limit in turning it into whatever you want it to be is your imagination.

It took me years to learn that the extra money you spend on quality will be forgotten long before the headaches of buying something cheap.
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:30 PM
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Yeah only thing I can get for that price is a severely used Maverick 88 lol wich is 260 brand new. But it feels cheap and junky to me.

Guns are expensive here in maine.

used sigs go for about $850.

Berettas are $500 used

6906's are $550-$650.

AR's are 900+ used.

its sad haha
One word-Gunbroker
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:50 PM
M29since14 M29since14 is offline
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Quote:
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...Just want a CHEAP fun 12ga that i can fire 00 buck out of, or even put a wide choke in and throw around some slugs. Not worried about breaking it, i plan on buying a benelli M4 when I win the lottery anyway so this will be a "alright" shotgun, dont need gold on the first buy :-D haha
Since you mention Benelli, take a look at the Benelli Super Nova pump. I just looked at one this afternoon. Uses any 12-ga shell from 2-3/4" to 3-1/2", had decent adjustable rear peep and white-dot type front sight, and seemed a lot smoother and better made than the comparably priced Remington Express model. Yes, it is foreign made (unfortunately). Price was $400 - in a shop known for selling everything they have at full retail.

Nova Tactical Shotgun | Benelli USA
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:56 PM
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We had something close. A little strip mall had a gun store, nudie bar, tackle shop and Industrial Liquidators (Hardware store on steroids) along with the usual liquor store & Asian restaurants. Heaven!
The One-Stop shop!!!!!
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:01 AM
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Find an FFL who will do a transfer for you and go to the net. Used shotguns are all over the place in your price range or watch local ads and talk to friends. Stick with the models frequently suggested in the replies here. Don't be in a big hurry. There's a ton out there!
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Old 12-08-2013, 04:42 AM
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There's just something really appealing about a plain old pump
shotgun with a short barrel with a bead sight. A very basic simple gun
with lots of power that can often be bought at a very modest price.
I guess that's why I have so many of them. Remington 870s and 31s,
Winchester 12s, 97s, 25 and 1300, JC Higgins by High Standard. An
18" cyl bore pump gun is more versatile than you might think. Great
for rabbits and pheasants and I have broken as many as 23 out of 25
at trap which is usually shot with a full choke. Plain barrel field guns
can be bought cheap and cut to 18"+ to be sure of being legal. The
870 has proven it's durability on the trap and skeet ranges. Many
competetive shooters keep a record of their shooting. One skeet
shooter told me he had 56,000 rounds through his 870 and had only
to replace one small spring. Can the Mossbergs and Mavericks equal
that? Doubt it.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:50 AM
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If you aren't going to need a shotgun for HD then you may want to look into converting an auto. An interesting project would be to build a defense shotgun starting with a Browning A5 receiver. Sacrilege?
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:03 AM
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What alwslate said
Get a Rem 870 and you will have done it right the first time
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Old 12-08-2013, 01:22 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
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Did not read all the posts....but can say

CZ makes great handguns and rifles (I have several)....and their prices are good...check out the CZ forum at "Rimfire Central"........

I would not hesitate to buy a CZ
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  #46  
Old 12-08-2013, 01:44 PM
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I'll add a vote for the Remington 870 in Wingmaster trim.

The old Wingmasters were made much better than the current Express guns. The rails are much smoother, the fit and finish much better. Those double rails used to be Remington's claim to fame, but others have double rails now.

Around here I'd have no problem picking up a used 870 for under $250. For $300 I'd get a couple of barrels, slug and field with choke tubes.

It may pay to look around.

.
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  #47  
Old 12-08-2013, 02:59 PM
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A hone defense shotgun does not have to be..............

NEW or PRETTY..............

just in good enough working order to fire shells.

It does not hurt to give a "Used Gun" some love...........

but that new one sure does look "Snazzy".
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:40 PM
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Don't skimp on the shotgun, you'll be sorry. Get something of merit like the Remington, or Browning and forget the others.
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Old 12-08-2013, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hack View Post
The most compelling semi vs pump argument I heard, was based upon the fact some shots may occur from 'the hip'. Without a decent shoulder (or other) anchor, the un-restrained recoil from a semi-auto, may not be enough to eject and chamber the next round. Not a problem with a pump action.
That's the reason I grab the gun with my arm to my body.
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:09 PM
Smithsrevenge Smithsrevenge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quneur View Post
If you aren't going to need a shotgun for HD then you may want to look into converting an auto. An interesting project would be to build a defense shotgun starting with a Browning A5 receiver. Sacrilege?
This was the reasoning behind wanting the Benelli M4. Its got that nice lug at the front of the pump that twists :-D

One moment its a pump, Twist of the lug and shes a semi-auto :-D

Both worlds. One gun.............

That being said $1,400 is a big chunk of cheese lol
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