I am really thinking I want one. I am leaning toward a rifle instead of a carbine but you never know. I don't want anything rare, just a good shooter. I would only be shooting Cowboy level loads in it for fun.

Can you guys give me some pointers? Can I get a decent looking shooter for around 1K? I have a gunshow coming to my neighborhood in 2 weeks. I plan to at least handle a couple and see what the market is like in my area.

Thanks for any help.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

absolutely for less than a grand.

Agreed, especially around here. They are a lot of fun, I had an 1884 model with the Buffington wind gage sight. Only thing I ever shot with it besides targets was a rattler; head went one way, body the other. That's a nice heavy bullet!

I consigned mine locally for $700. Note that is not an attempt to advertise for sale, merely a price point. Mine is an 1884 that was cut into a carbine. It came off an Indian reservation in Oklahoma. At one point these rifles were given away to Indians for use in subsistence hunting. Apparently it was once popular, circa the Depression, to fire them with 2.5" .410 loads to dispatch animals on farms. The green and yellow box Remington 405gr load is supposed to be Trapdoor safe, at least for 1884s, and is capable of taking most animals as well now as in the 19th century.

Being pre 1899, they can be shipped direct without need for an FFL.

My gun was refinished by an armorer at Parris Island.

For less than 1K you should be able to get not only a good shooter but everything you'll need to reload for it. And yes, if you shoot it much you will reload.

Now I am really excited. I have a revolver I plan to sell to fund the trapdoor. I do reload so that should not be a problem. I have ordered a couple of books. One is a Reloading Cartridges for the Original Trapdoor Rifle and Carbine and the other is a general book on the subject.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

Local gunsmith here has a couple of them. I've not handled them, but I believe $700 is the hat he asking for each.

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Dave

Carbines are twice as expensive as rifles in most areas. I prefer the weight and feel of the rifles myself. Remember to not shoot jacketed bullets often as the steel used in the barrels in these early guns were quite soft and jacketed bullets wear the rifling quite fast according to the experts.

I have one and have shot it off and on over the years. It's a great deal of fun and definitely a link with the past.
Jim

Go here for an article written by a fellow forum member.
Those Trapdoor Springfields!
I have a picture of mine posted in that thread.

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Eccentric old coot

Thanks for the link Iggy.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

I've had a few infantry rifles in the past. But the most accurate and fun one was a H&R carbine that I found for half the price of a original.
I also just shot cowboy type loads. I also had a Remington rolling block and a Marlin cowboy and a Ruger no. 1 that was brutal to shoot even with cowboy loads.

I have a 1873 rifle that was given to me about 1967 or so. Back then I replaced the rear sight with a windage adjustable Buffington sight from about 1884.

I don't think I have shot 15 rounds through it to date and haven't shot it in 40+ years.

The nice thing is they don't go bad from disuse.

LTC

I collected them many years ago when their prices were much more reasonable. The guns were:

1. An 1866 (2nd Allin conversion) rifle in .50/70
2. An 1868 rifle in .50/70
3. An 1879 rifle in .45/70
4. An 1879 carbine in .45/70 (photo above)
5. An 1888 rod bayonet rifle in .45/70

I got my first one, the 1879 rifle, for $65 in the early 1960s. Some idiot had completely coated it with with varnish, I guess in the belief that would protect it from rusting. I was able to carefully remove the varnish, and what was underneath was a fairly nice rifle.

I handloaded many .50/70 and .45/70 rounds, using moderate low-pressure charges of smokeless powder and bullets I cast myself. Initially I made .50/70 brass out of .348 Winchester. I loaded some Unique powder in the case, filled the rest of it up with Cream of Wheat, put a soap wad in the end of it, and fired it in the gun. This fire-formed the case, which I trimmed with a tube cutter and then final-trimmed with a file. The case heads were not wide enough for normal extraction by the gun, but I could shoot them and pluck them out. Later I found a supply of new-made .50/70 brass. .45/70 was a whole lot easier, as brass was (and is) still plentiful. I shot all of the guns listed above, and they were a lot of fun.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I have several 45-70's but only one trapdoor, a 1873 pre-Custer Cavalry Carbine. In and around 1976, H&R made trapdoor rifles, carbines and Officer models. My friends that have them say all versions below SN 5000 shoot much better than those above. Ivan

1k is a very nice trapdoor, most I see here in Ky that I would say are shooter condition are ~600.

Definitely make sure you look it over first, not so much for quality, but to make sure you are getting the model you want. I got in the mood for 73 trapdoor in 45-70 a while back and was told by a friend that they had a few real cheap at LGS. We looked it over, checked out the bore and so on, walked out with a nice gun for $350. Only thing was it was marked wrong in the store, it's actually an 1866 model in 50-70. I'm not complaining but given how the early model springfields were made (chopped up civil war muskets essentially) make sure to double check, they all look pretty similar. Needless to say the impulse buy got the better of me, still waiting to get around to loading up some ammo for it because it ain't out on the shelves.

Luckily, the Trapdoor sea is still full of nice fish!

The Buffington equipped rifles are the best shooters, but even the most basic sights are fun out to 1000 yds with 500 gr slugs.

I must be serious. I just ordered RCBS dies, conversion kit for the Dillon 550, 150 Starline cases and 200 405grn cast bullets. I was looking over trapdoor reloading data and Varget was listed. I have 3 pounds of that and will try to get some Reloader #7 and H4198 to try. When I retire in a couple of years I will cast my own bullets and experiment with black powder loads.

Now I just need a rifle. The local show is a week from tomorrow.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

Stupid question time...but is this a trapdoor? It is a Springfield I believe. I can get better pics and model numbers off of it tomorrow if anyone is interested.

Yup, it's a trapdoor infantry rifle. Rear sight is a Buffington. That may or may not be an indicator of the vintage of the rifle. Trapdoors were re-furbished and up dated from time to time.

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Eccentric old coot

Yes, that is a trapdoor and a nice looking one at that. More pictures would be great.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

Thanks Iggy and alde, I thought it looked like the ones pictured here. It is a family gun that lives with me as well as the Marlin single shot ballard you see on the ground. I really don't know much about either (caliber and such). I do have a couple pieces like a bayonet that goes with the Springfiled. I will try and dig them out tomorrow.

I don't have an original rifle but I do have a modern repo. I love single shot rifles but this one is so light (I don't think it weighs more than 6 pounds) that recoil is tooth rattling with anything above gallery loads.




Funny story. I bought this from a Gunbroker auction maybe 5 years ago. Seller started it at $325 and I was the only bidder. In every email arranging payment, shipping etc. he complained about the selling price. Apparently he hoped for it to go a lot higher. I finally offered to cancel the deal and he could relist the rifle but he refused my offer and completed the transaction. It was in brand new condition and probably should have sold for $500 or so..

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No life story has happy end.

Saxon Pig: in the Army, the regulation load was 70 grs of black powder (fg, I think) behind a 405 gr (later 500 gr) bullet, but carbine ammo was only loaded with 50 grs and a filler. Carbine ammo was headstamped C and rifle ammo stamped R so you could tell them apart. 70 grs in that light rifle would be tooth rattling as would be any modern factory ammo.

Lovely rifle, incidently.

I just looked at a TD at the pawn shop. It was a rifle length but it was in pretty sad shape aside from the bore. The serial was 29,xxx with 1873 stamped on the breach block and the stock was stamped 1883. The trigger guard was pretty rusted, the breach block was so loose you could wiggle it 3/8" from side to side and the stock was all chewed up. They wanted $699 for it. Needless to say it still sits in the pawn shop.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

A quick question for you guys with a little experience. My primary use for a TD will be fun on the 100 and 200 yard ranges but there is a group that meets at my club and shoots 200 yard steel targets for friendly competition with BP cartridge rifles. They have all types from TD's to falling blocks and such. If I come across a decent deal on a carbine would that hold it's own in a fun shoot? Also, how do I know I'm getting a real carbine and not a chop job?

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AL
Pax Per Potens

The best way to tell a real carbine from a cut-down rifle is to look at the front of the stock. Rifles had a groove and hole for the ramrod, going almost all the way back to the trigger guard. Carbines didn't. It's almost impossible to plug that hole so a careful inspection won't reveal it .

Carbine stocks should have a sliding trapdoor in the butt for a three piece ramrod and a headless case extractor. The carbine should have the saddle ring on the left side, but it can be added. Carbine rear sights should be marked 'C' for carbine, but they could be added to a rifle barrel. Look at the stock for evidence of a ramrod hole.

What Cyrano has told you is correct - the best bet is to look for evidence of an altered stock to distinguish a made-up "carbine." As for actual shooting, the longer sight radius of the longer infantry model will give you an accuracy and power advantage. The "Buffington" rear sight, which is somewhat like that used on the '03 Springfields, is more precise at longer ranges than the stepped- or curved-side open rear sights. It's interchangeable with the earlier sights, and can probably be purchased through Gun Parts Corp. or other parts houses.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Thanks for the tips on spotting a correct carbine. I am stuck between wanting the more practical rifle and the history and cool factor of the carbine. Most of us grew up on Westerns and the carbine has a draw like the Colt SSA for us. A carbine will probably be over my budget anyway.

I see some decent looking cut carbines. I don't know if I want to go in that direction unless I find something really nice. My book on Springfield TD's should be here in a day or two. I'll try to get it read before the gun show.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

Turns out it is a model 1873. Here is what I have. Is it a rifle or carbine and what caliber do you think? Serial number 3155xx

Thanks

It's a rifle made around 1886. It looks to be in really nice condition and I see you have the bayonet too. That's a really cool set. It is chambered in 45-70 but if you decide to fire it make sure the ammo is safe for trapdoor rifles. Cowboy action ammo should be just fine from what I have learned over the last few weeks.

Thank you for taking the time to take and post the pictures.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

Thanks for the info alde. It was nice to take a couple pictures of it and let it see the light of day again. Like most, I am just it's caretaker for a short time in it's life.

It appears to be a Model 1884 infantry "long tom" rifle, with the Buffington sight. Looks to be in good shape, too, unless it shows signs of re-bluing along the way. The receiver itself and the breech block should be case-hardened, with the rest of the metal blued.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Revho,

I didn't notice the cartridge box when I first looked at your pictures. That's really cool. You have the bayonet frogs and everything. Thanks again for the pictures. I really enjoyed seeing them.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

No problem, happy to add to the discussion. The cartridge box is a cool piece. The first place I know the gun came from was my great uncle Rube (Ruben) who served in WWI. Whether or not all the pieces came to him together or he put them together I dont know. When he died in the early 70's his wife (great aunt Mabel) wanted all the guns out of the house almost immediately. It took the better part of a Saturday from what I was told with 5 people to find around 40 guns he had stashed all over the house and garage. They never had kids so the guns were divided up between my Grandpa and 4 sons. I am lucky enough to have a couple of them.

Sorry for the long story and thread hijack...some times the back stories are interesting to some as well.

If the cartridge loops are leather, it's unwise to store ammo in the cartridge box. The leather was tanned with tannic acid, and will start verdigris corrosion almost immediately. I have an indian wars McKeever cartridge box, and my cases started to corrode after only two weeks. That's why some 45-70 cases of the period had a tin wash; to prevent corrosion from the leather.

OK guys, the gun show is in a couple of days. I'm still torn between the practicality of the rifle for shooting fun and the cool factor of the carbine. Is the carbine brutal to shoot with starting trapdoor loads? My maximum target distance at my club is 200 yards but will do most of my shooting at 100. Of course it all depends on what I find. This show usually has a good selection of older military rifles.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

Carried one up San Juan Hill in 1898 -71st New York. Model of 1888.
I would fire only black powder in it, I confess I know zip about Cowboy loads but that nearly 130 old metal was intended for smokeless powder.
And that big cloud of white smoke is very pleasing.

So, you would be pushing around 160 years old? Maybe you know my wife's grandfather. He was in Cuba in 1898 in the Navy. Not sure what ship though.

I do want to shoot BP eventually but want to try light smokeless loads too. I picked up the book on loads for original TD's. It has some great info but I may need to read it a couple of times or so before I feel comfortable with BP. I have only used it in cap and ball revolvers.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

Trapdoors are not bad to shoot with black powder loads. Recoil is more of push than a whack from modern powder rounds.
You have to remember that the maximum weight for a Trooper back then was 165 pounds due to weight restrictions of the load on trooper's horse.
The recoil of the 500 grain bullet over 70 grains of powder in the carbine was punishing to those guys.

For that reason, the carbine round was reduced to a 405 grain bullet over 55 grains of powder.

In comparison, today's modern factory 350 grain load will kick the snot out of you in a carbine.

I just shoot black powder in my trapdoor mainly for nostalgic reasons, but the elk and deer I shot with it probably didn't notice the difference.
This is a cut down rifle, and I shoot either the 405 or 500 grain loads with good results. I even shoot some 530 grain paper patched flying telephone poles when I'm feeling
froggy.

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Eccentric old coot

Iggy, Do you cast your own bullets? From what I have read a soft hollow base bullets works well with BP.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

I cast mine from wheel weights. They are flat based from a Lyman mold. Nothing special. I suspect the advice you were given was an effort to adjust to oversized bores.

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Eccentric old coot

Yes, I understand the groves can run .462". I got some Missouri Bullets 405 grain RNFP and they are sized to .459". I am just leaving for the gun show in about 5 minutes and I will let you guy know what I find.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

Find anything interesting at the gun show?

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Eccentric old coot

Yes, I picked up an mod 1884 rifle with a rod bayonet. It has a nice tight breach lockup and a great looking bore. It also has the better sight. The stock is stamped 1892. The seller had a $650 price tag on it and said he was open to offers as long as they were not too crazy. I asked if $500 was too crazy and he said that's not too crazy at all. It was a great show with some nice prices. I also picked up an almost perfect 29-2 R&R with a 6-1/2" barrel for $750. I just couldn't let it go for that price. There were a lot of nice Smiths there. I will try to get pictures of both posted tomorrow morning.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

That is nice looking.

I have my Grandfathers 1884. I keep wanting to bag a deer with it so I need to take it this year.

I've noticed the prices have dropped on these over the last 5 or so years.

Yes they will shoot a 2.5" 410 shot shell, but it needs to be close due to rifling.

Read the warnings on the 45-70 ammo boxes to make sure you don't get something for an 1895 Marlin.

FYI, I've been told bayonets are not interchangeable between the early and later ones. I've never felt the need to own one. I don't think I'll be fixing bayonets prepping for a charge in the deer woods. On 2nd thought maybe I need one.

I've killed quite a few deer with an 1895 Marlin. The 45-70 is an awesome performer on deer. The big slow moving bullet does not destroy meat like a modern high speed center fire. There is an old saying on the 45-70, you can eat right up to the bullet hole.

Find the Feb 2014 issue ofHandloader, it has some 45-70 loads.

For some of you other gents, it has an article on N-Frame Herret Roper grips by Brian Pearce and a neat story about some early handunners and the 45 colt.

Sounds like a winner!

The late production guns did not see much use and are perfect for the modern collector/shooter who does not desperately need a "Custer" vintage weapon.

That's me exactly. I just want to have some range fun with a nice old battle rifle. I slugged the bore. It's hard to get a real good reading on the 3 groove rifling but the highest number I came up with was .460". That's a whole lot better than .462" or .464" like I have read they could be.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

This is the only Trapdoor Springfield I have ever owned. I have it listed in my inventory as a Allin conversion 45/70 Cadet rifle. I'm no Springfield expert.
I bought it because it looked cool and that's about it.
Since it's out, I'm going to have to shoot it. The rifling is very nice and the gun shoots pretty well although it's been years since I shot it.
You Springfield experts let me know what you think.

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