Having never been a shotgun guy, I must admit to limited knowledge and therefore I'm seeking comments and knowledge from you. About 15 years ago I bought this Winchester Md 1897 12 gauge from a friend in Iowa. The main reason for buying was that I thought it was really cool! What better reason, huh?

I recently learned that mine might be one of the 1897s in "riot" configuration but since the barrels can easily be cut off, I'm not sure. However, it appears all original to me. Even the scratches on the butt plate that extend into the stock look original. None of the screws appear to have been touched by a screwdriver. It is also clear that this gun was carried upside down in the right hand due to the nearly complete lack of finish on the top and left side of the receiver. I guess this could be consistent with the way a prison guard might carry this gun.

I've never fired this gun, but now I'm kind of itchin' to do so. Any advice on what ammo to use? Thanks in advance for any replies you care to make.

should be the original barrel length as the barrel is marked "CYL" for cylinder bore, meaning no choke. sorry I don't have a Winchester listing for ser numbers to look up the year but someone will be along that does. very nice shotgun. thanks for sharing. lee

According to my book, it was manufactured in 1919.

According to the Blue Book of Gun Values, your Model 1897 was produced in 1917 (1917 shows serial numbers 646124 to 668382). I have a couple of these (12 and 16 gauge), and have used light factory and reloaded ammunition in them. Since yours is "cylinder bore," I'd agree that it is most likely unaltered. A nice looking gun in what appears to be nice, original condition (especially as it approaches its hundredth anniversary!).

Ooops! If DGT is correct, you might have to wait a couple more years to celebrate that 100th birthday.

I have one made in 1917. I shoot any regular 12 loads in it. I also used it for deer hunting with buckshot. You don't have to baby it.

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S&W Accumulator

That's a fine looking old '97! I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it. I'd look really close for hairline cracks in the wood where the stock joins the receiver, but other than that you shouldn't worry. If it were mine, I'd really like to shoot it just to see how it functions, but I'd still want to keep it as nice as it is now.

And I'm sure you know that the '97s don't have a trigger disconnect, so you can "slam fire" it. As long as you pump it while holding the trigger back, it'll fire until you run out of shells. It looks factory to me with the cylinder bore barrel. The barrel, by the way, should be 20-inches long.

EDIT: The more I look at those photos, the more I like that old gun. It has such a nice patina. It may have been used a good bit, but someone took really good care of that ol' boy. I know I'd sure like to find a factory riot '97 in that condition.

I was going from a small pocket reference book on Winchester manufacture dates. I checked a website that purports to have Winchester manufacture dates and it also showed 1919. In any event, it is a fine looking '97.

Lee Marvin used one just like that in the movie "The Professionals".
Great movie if you haven't seen it.
He carried it over his right shoulder just as you described and fan fired it with good effect on the banditos.

Steve

Thanks guys for taking the time to comment. I really appreciate it and I've learned much already. I didn't know that "CYL" meant no choke and I didn't know the age though I suspected it was 1920s so '17 or '19 is very cool! What's most gratifying is to learn that it has never been molested with a saw. I didn't think it had due to how original the front bead sight looks. Under magnification, there's absolutely no evidence that it might have been attached after leaving the factory.

Watchdog, thanks for your kind comments and I did know you can "slam fire" the 97s but until yesterday, I didn't know that it had some sort of pump lock. You must push the pump slightly forward to unlock the pumping action. You can hear a small click. I had always thought it might be a flaw in my gun and was happy to learn that that's the way it is supposed to work.

Magneto, thanks for reminding me about one of my favorite movies. Haven't seen it for years and years but I'm gonna get on Netflix and have 'em send me the DVD ASAP.

I have two of these, a 1904 and a 1954. Both of mine as is yours are take-down models. All of the factory riot model shotguns were made with the ridged barrel frame. At some point yours could have been on a unruly mob, but it was not marketed that way.

One of the things I like about the Winchester 97 and 12 take down guns, is the mag tube is part of the barrel assembly. One of mine has an 18 1/4" barrel and will fit in a gym bag or brief case. This has been very handy when traveling or the few times I needed a shotgun at the office. There is a man that sells a mag spring and follower kit that gives you an extra round (6+1), for shooting the "Wild Bunch" class of cowboy action shooting. (Been there, done that, and smiled all day!) Enjoy you piece of history. Ivan

They were used heavily by law enforcement agencies, and prisons. Also a lot of private companies ordered them for guard use, mining companies railroads, express companies, lots of history in that old pump.

Congratulations on a good find.

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LEX ET ORDO

Great gun to start shooting SASS with!! Mine is my grand dad's made in 1902 and runs like a champ. Grandpa used it hard and so do I just different types of shooting!

Shoot it and have a blast!!

Randy

One thing on those Model 97's is that the early ones are chambered in 2 5/8 inch 12 gauge shells and didn't become standard for 2 3/4 until 1927 when the Model 12 was also lengthened a bit. I found this out when I had a 1910 era 1897 once. I know people who have shot 2 3/4 inch shells through the early guns but wanted you to know there was a difference. You can have the chambered reamed out the extra little bit which is what I would do in your case if it hasn't already been done by someone else. I would just take that into consideration before shooting it. Certainly don't try to ram a 3 inch shell into it, saw a guy try that once with a Model 12.

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Vaya con Dios

Just a word to the wise. When you do start shooting be careful when you pump a shell in. That bolt comes sliding back and can really mess up your thumb.

Not to mention they made a real appearance along with Winchester Model 12's in The Wild Bunch.

and a Model 97 was the gun of the hit man in Bullitt with Steve McQueen.

and a Model 97 was the shotgun of choice in The Mummy.

they certainly have gotten around.

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Vaya con Dios

all you need to go with it is an early 1911 colt. I've got a 1953 made 97 with a 28" mod barrel. you can't imagine how tempted I have been to shorten it to 20" or so but it is too nice to do that to. lee

I don't think the Riot version of the '97 was available in Take-Down frame till the mid 1930's.

Cylinder choke (CYL) was available on any standard 12ga factory bbl length from the beginning of mfg.

If all that is correct ,,and I could be all wrong!,,the shotgun is most likely a cut down from a 28 or 30" field grade CYL choke bored original.

It's a great looking shotgun though and I'd have it out to the skeet range regardless of the 12F forecast for this Thursday if it were mine.
I shoot my 1903 mfg nearly every week that is cut to 26" and now cyl choke (orig a bent bbl'd 30 full choke).

There has been some good information on this thread. I had not realized that the riot gun configuration was in solid frame only till 1930. I am a Winchester man that has studied Winchesters for more decades than I care to admit. And still I learn things. The barrel choking "CYL" looks real, so if no takedown models were available till 1930, the only conclusion is either someone re-barreled it or it was a cut down 26" cylinder choked "brush gun". My research over the years has found that the 12 gauges were standard reamed for 2 3/4" from the start. There is some other confusion about chamber lengths that needs to be corrected from MY research. The 12 gauges were always 2 3/4" in both the model 12's and the model 97's. The 16 gauge guns did not have 2 3/4" chambering's till 1927. Before that chamber length was 2 9/16". The twenty gauge models 12's were 2 1/2" till??????????? IIRC the 2 5/8" 12 gauge chambers were mostly from the European Continent.

I picked up a 97 riot in Cambodia back in 70 that was a take down and was made in 1921: originally shipped to NYC PD, auctioned off in the late 30s but no record of where it went. it was pretty rough but functioned just fine with the all brass 00 buck we had. lee

That is really a nice 97 !
I was just looking at one at a gun show, the dealer was asking $1200. for it and I had no idea how old it was. The guy is a reputable dealer though the shotgun itself was pretty primo and I do like my Winchesters!

Whenever I go to gun shows, I always have a small sheet of paper with me. On this paper are printed lists of serial numbers and production years for: Old Model Ruger single-actions, Winchester Model 12s and 97s, and S&W N-Frames, both S and N numbers. You can find all that info online and print it out to go on a single sheet. I'm planning on adding a second small sheet that will include WWII 1911A1 pistols (all brands) and Colt pre-WWII 1911s. Or maybe just keep it on one sheet, but printed on both sides. It's a handy little tool.

I can't tell you how many sellers/dealers I've run across that actually don't know a whole lot about the guns they're trying to sell, especially when they were made.

I do pretty much the same thing except that I use 3 X 5 index cards. I've got about every S&W model that I'm interested in on those cards which number about 5. They also fit into my shirt pocket. I write down range of manufacture and about three dash number dates just to give me a rough idea of age. Having those cards has helped me several times in acquiring something nice that I might not otherwise have bought.

Sounds like a great idea, I'll have to but my list together. A lot of times I wish I had it in the past.

The most important information in the thread. Larry

That is how they got the nick name "Thumb Busters"