Hey, guess I'm considered an "old timer," but when I was in "The Crotch" back in '68 the term "clip" was in general usage for mags. No? Ask around.

ps ... lose the "snark"

See now there ya go....I'd probably paint the Shroud of Turin on the Mona Lisa..........

__________________
Even older, even crankier....

I don't really have anything to add, except that there's just something about a blued 1911 with ivory grips that's just...right. Know what I mean?

I must say this is what I have been wrestling with.

In the end I think I will attempt to replace it for the simple reason that it's a non-destructive change to the gun, and it could be very easily reversed.

As far as the back of the grips goes, there was rust, which is why they look like that. I gently removed the rust with oil, a cotton cloth, and a bit of elbow grease, and have oiled the gun with Breakfree CLP. It really did need it.

As far as firing the gun goes, it's in good working order and it's a hardy design with a whole lot of life in it. With some care and good quality ammunition I don't feel that shooting it will be detrimental to the gun at all. Furthermore this was Elmer Keith's modified gun, who knows how many rounds he put through this thing in his life. I almost think it's more wrong to not shoot it then to shoot it and enjoy it fully.

In any case I don't have much of a chance to get out to the range lately anyway, so I have lots of time to decide. I do have a friend who's dad is a Ranger, who I am pretty sure would be absolutely tickled to shoot this gun, so I do expect to have him shoot it. I've been out shooting with him and some of his guys when they were back from Afghanistan and the smiles on their faces as they put my pile of .45-70 through my 1874 rolling block was worth every penny of those ammo costs and exploded bowling pins. Maybe an odd thing to give back to our servicemen, but the happiness in that event really stuck with me.

In the end, I think the only time it will be shot is when someone is visiting that will get the right kind of thrill out of shooting it. If it were one of Keith's beautifully engraved guns I can't imagine taking out, but this gun? Even with the cost? It's still a shooter.

Besides, I don't want Elmer's ghost haunting me, and I think it would if I treated this gun as some sort of holy relic that should never be touched and enjoyed.


On another note, if you guys haven't seen the thread you should really read this; My first triple lock... was Elmer Keith's

I am over the moon to own this 1911 (which should be obvious) but in my heart of hearts Beetledude got what I really wanted out of that auction. As sad as I am that those triple locks are not mine, I'm very happy that they went to him. He's a great guy who truly appreciates what he has and is happy to share pictures and information.

I, too, wouldn't replace it. For one thing, no one knows exactly what the former bead looked like and as soon as it's replaced, watch someone find some old private correspondence wherein Keith describes accidentally knocking the bead off in a moment of carelessness or something like that.

Replacing the bead is an act of restoration, no matter how small or trivial, and isn't something I'd undertake on this particular piece.

__________________
SWHF #448

Restoring the front sight isn't going to make your pistol worth a dollar less, or a dollar more if done correctly. It's your gun, do what you want. If -- or when -- a time comes to sell, no buyer that "gets" what the gun is all about will give you grief either way. Just don't expect it to hold its value if you have it powder-coated pink.

There's absolutely no need to justify how much you paid for the gun or anything else. If I had the cash, I would have paid double what you paid.

Thank you for sharing the story and photos. What a trophy!

That's the point I've been trying to make for years. Ever since the detachable box magazine was invented, it was called a clip.

Now, suddenly, in the last twenty or thirty years, people have decided that clips are not clips, that they should only be called magazines, and anyone that calls a clip a clip is a booger-eating moron.

I like to force these ALL-KNOWING FIREARM TERMINOLOGY people to see that the great gun experts of yesteryear called 'em clips. Elmer, Skeeter, Charlie Askins. Because they are clips.

__________________
I always take precautions

I think it's very cool that you are going to shoot it. I would never fire it with those grips for fear that with their age, they would crack. The original grips would go back on only for display and with not a lot of tension on the grip screws. Maybe also install a new recoil spring simply for use when shooting the gun? I'd start with a pretty mild hand load as well. A lot of store bought ammo is pretty hot since it really needs to cycle such a wide range of firearms. Thank you for sharing the story and the photos.

The auction sure missed the estimated sale range on that piece!

Whatever can be said of Keith, good or bad, I am a fan of his. This is an excellent thread......What a prize you have in that 1911!!!!!! Bravo Sir, BRAVO!!!!!

__________________
Go big or stay home

Congratulations on your purchase! For what it's worth, I don't care if you call them clips or magazines, as long as they work! If it were mine, I'd put a new bead in the sight, shoot it some, take care of it and treasure it for it's history. L. O. G.

It was my distinct honor to meet up with Sixgun today at an LGS, and get a chance to see some of his incredible collection. I had the opportunity to hold, and yes, dry fire Elmers (now Sixguns) 1911. Given the opportunity, I would shoot it.

Lots of folks there were impressed with the gun. Here's a pic of a fat old man with an iconic bit of history:

Attached Images

20150403_105324[1].jpg (67.0 KB, 182 views)

__________________
Even older, even crankier....

Note that I was pointing the gun in a safe direction.........

__________________
Even older, even crankier....

I have a signed copy of "Hell, I Was There" and you now own a gun that actually WAS there!
The N.R.A. stamping should be on the frame under the serial number though this number falls in the range of other known NRA examples. Elmer clearly liked his guns his way. This pistol from 1914 is carrying several parts found on WWII 1911A1 pistols including the magazine which should have a lanyard loop (this mag is a commercial), the long tang grip safety, the arched mainspring housing and of course the short trigger. I can't tell if the trigger is stamped or an original 1911 that was ground down. Regardless, I'm certain it's just the way he wanted it.

That's interesting on the NRA stuff serial range, I thought that was the case but I wasn't certain. I'd love it to be an NRA provided gun and I am wondering if there are records around as to which were sold that way. It sounds like they didn't really keep records though, given how they seem to have been randomly pulled off of the rack.

I have this mounting suspicion that the "NRA sold it to me" was a story particularly savvy people who came home with a 1911 told so as not to get into trouble.

As to the magazine, I wouldn't mind finding an original Springfield at some point just to add to the package. I'm sure this magazine was just whatever Elmer happened to have left in it the last time shot it, or whatever someone tossed in there.

All the parts you are talking about there seem to be things King did, I'm not sure if they took the parts from something else or were fabricating them themselves.

Keith mentions your gun at least twice in his book, Sixguns. On page 48 he mentions the DCM/NRA connection and W.R. Strong. Here he relates the story as Captain Strong using "several" clips, rather than "seven" clips, at Chateau Thierry. He mentions adding the checkered, arched MSH in the 1920s, along with the shorter trigger and longer grip safety. He also added a wider rear sight and Patridge type front sight.

On page 116 he mentions having "the King Gun Sight Company, now known as the Ricky Gun Sight Company, of San Francisco, fit higher front and rear sights to my old .45 Auto, and it then became much better for long range shooting...."

When D.W. King died in 1945, many of his parts and ideas were stolen by gunsmiths who worked for him. King made his own parts. Some of his former employees started Micro and copied his sights but they did so by infringing his patents. Another group of employees negotiated with his widow for patent rights and they named the company "Ricky" after one of the founder's young sons. So, Elmer's gun would have had the sights changed twice; once in the 1920s and again in the late 1940s.

AFAIK, I have the most complete list of N.R.A. marked M1911 pistols, compiled over many years. Your gun falls in the right range but does not appear on the list. I don't know of any that were sold through the NRA without the stamp but I guess it's possible.

Regards,
Kevin Williams

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Good grief. Reading this post and seeing the marvelous pieces of weaponry is better than a cheap date on payday. Thank you all with respect.

Fantastic, thank you Kevin. My copy of Sixguns is with my Dad at the moment and I was itching to get it back and comb through it for references to the gun. Thanks for the information there.

Great answer on the NRA guns, that's exactly what I was hoping for.

Man, that's something to be proud of.

Great story about the 1911. And thanks for the copy of the article about the hunt. Mr. Keith's article about that tragedy summarizes why I gave up hunting many years ago. Death by "friendly fire" occurs in many locations. I saw it in Viet Nam, and too many saw it in Afghanistan and Iraq. When do we learn? Mr. Keith left us many lessons. It is a pity that more people cannot read.

I like those sights. Not surprised about the short trigger change: Elmer had short fingers.

I do think I'd strip and clean and oil it, and might fire a few "clips" through it, then mostly retire it. Those old 1911's have relatively brittle steel, and I'd hate to see this old gun damaged by firing. It's probably 100 years old and I've read that metals fatigue some with age.

You can easily find info on field stripping a Colt .45 auto. Even I can do it. Detail stripping might be left to a gunsmith or a careful man with some mechanical skills and a manual.
As you have other.45's, I assume that you mean a thorough cleaning.

Elmer knew Bill Strong quite well and admired him. I think that Keith believed that bit about Strong killing maybe 49 Germans with it. I wouldn't write it off as being pure hyperbole, although I'd like to see documentation. Keith later recalled that Strong had said "several" clips, not "seven." That is probably correct. He probably didn't even have seven clips on him. Few would have.

John Basilone, MH killed a lot of Japanese with his .45 on Guadalcanal. Don't know if he knew or said just how many. Sgt. York, MH killed eight in a few seconds in WWI. Most that he killed were slain with his .30 Springfield rifle. The 132 prisoners that he took evidently didn't doubt his skills!

I'm probably going to regret expressing my opinion on the clip thing but that's never stopped me before! Yes, the acceptable lexicon regarding firearms can vary. Shoot... this is America, you can call it a magazine, a clip or a school bus if you like. I always heard that a magazine has moving parts and a clip, like a stripper clip or moon clip has no moving parts. By the way, is it an automatic or a semi-automatic?

This is just terrific all the way around. I admire your throw-caution-to-the-wind attitude in getting the gun. It's trite but you're only young once and missed chances are just that--missed and likely never to be had again.

My regrets with guns are not the ones I bought, but the ones I didn't buy when I had the chance. As Hemingway said, the road to hell is paved with unbought stuffed dogs.

As you wrote, a lot of the pleasure of acquiring the old 45 is going to be the research you do about it and Keith and the history surrounding them.

I look forward to more posts about it and a range report!

Congratulations on that piece of history in your hand. And thank you for sharing. Something special, which lives on via our memories.

__________________
July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

Sixgunstrumpet: Don't obsess about the cost. After all, you only paid $982 for the gun plus FFL fees. That's barely above what a brand new nice 1911 costs.

That is what you told your other half, right??????????????

I read somewhere a mans greatest fear right before dying is that his widow will sell all his guns for what he said he originally paid for them. She will be a good business person and get your money back..........

Congrats Caleb, very nice piece and I am seriously envious!!
I gave Ted Keith a call after the auctions and he said that his family was astonished at the prices the guns fetched. He said his wife mentioned.....
"I can't believe guys would pay that kind of money for all those old guns" and they were amazed at the results especially of the double rifles that sold.
Ted has had some serious health issues as of the past few years including heart conditions and he has recently been diagnosed with Parkinson's.
Ted was fortunate to have a father who left him with such treasures to say the least.
Ted once told me that when his father passed away, there was a pilgrimage of guys showing up at the house telling Lorraine that "Elmer promised that gun to me when he died" and paid her next to nothing......Ted soon put an end to that......but I can only imagine how many wonderful guns left that house in the hands of those guys!

Let me know when we can connect so I can get a close look at the new toy!

__________________
Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Way late with this but Elmer believed Mr. Strong was killed as he was about to audit something in the State's business. Elmer believed with out actually accusing him that the shooting was probably intentional.

__________________
Front sight and squeeze

I recall this gun well from Elmer's writings,, and if no one mentioned it, the gun belonged to Capt. Bill Strong, who killed a number of Germans with it in WWI. Elmer got it after Strong's death and added the A-1 features.

Well, I was careless. Should have read posts right above mine. Obviously, Strong has been mentioned! I think I may be in a different thread than I thought. This is an old one...

I can't believe I missed this the first time around.

A zombie thread no one can complain about. Great thread.

__________________
Sure you did

This is a GREAT thread, really. And although I like all guns, at heart I am truly a 1911 fanboy. Admitting that, I gotta tell ya all, this ol' Springfield and the history and story behind it gives me a real chubby.

Well bought at any price. Shoot, display, enjoy!! And special thanks for sharing!!

In one of my favorite books and movies, Affliction by Russell Banks, there is a hunting accident/shooting under questionable circumstance amazingly similar to the incident Mr. Keith experienced and describes in his article.

I never thought about it when this thread originally came up, but I can’t help but wonder if that is where Banks got the idea for the shooting in Affliction.

__________________
Possum—The other white meat!

Haha, this forum is the best gun forum on the internet, and this is one of the reasons.

There is an incredible wealth of information lurking here. Old threads popping up is one of the things I love about hanging out here. I'd say that some of them aren't really zombies, so much as hibernating bear threads. Ready to roar back to life after groggily exiting their dens.

What a great thread. And congrats to the OP. These threads are what I wish we'd see more of. I wish I could add something

__________________
John

I for one am glad to see it come around again. This is one that really needs to be shown, shot & loved

__________________
On the Oak Savannah

Beautiful gun and story.
Look as to how to care for and protect that ivory.

There is no handgun like a 1911, period.

__________________
Sure you did

I read a lot of Keith's magazine articles in Guns and Ammo growing up and had a subscription from the time I was 10 or 11 until I went to college. I remember him talking about defensive handguns and he definitely preferred revolvers to autos. He liked the double action first shot on the S&W M39 9/mm but had no respect for the caliber and also didn't like the aluminum alloy frame. He preferred the strength of steel and also didn't like aluminum because it couldn't be "touch up" blued. He said he carried the Government 1911 .45 acp in his chaps pocket when he worked as a cowboy and as long as it was kept well oiled it was a good gun and he seemed to think it would work just fine as a manstopper even with full metal jacket ammo. Strangely I don't remember him saying much about the .357 Magnum, I guess he was satisfied with his 4" M29 and was quite content with it as a concealed carry weapon even though he was only about 5'-8" and 155 lbs. It's kinda funny how you hear people griping today about carrying something larger than the micro polymer .380s and 9m/ms.