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Old 07-08-2015, 03:44 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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Default First Class vs. Economy Class Handguns

There are ~75 Self Defense Handgun makers I could find. Task is to divide them into three tiers - kind of like First Class (most desirable), Business Class (very solid), Economy Class (might get us there perfectly in some cases, but if we had more money, we'd rather traveling First or Business)
To avoid connotations of price being the only criteria, I will be calling the Classes A, B and C.

We're looking only at the best gun from each maker - whichever that gun is, in your opinion. I will start listing universally acknowledged flagships behind the maker - please help me along with that, too. Let me know if anything should be shifted around.

This list is only there to help organize things in the head of the total novice. A novice in a country where you are only allowed one handgun. Or two, like in Germany. It can only be compiled by you experts, but it is not intended for you experts.

The best gun from the best maker in Class B has to be worse than the best gun from the worst maker in Class A.

The best gun from the best maker in Class C has to be worse than the best gun from the worst maker in Class C.

DISCLAIMER: In some cases, the C Class guns will be perfectly fine and reliable. But it would be very unlikely, that if guns were all free, or if - like in some countries - people can only have one handgun, they would choose one from that group.

Of course, nothing beats holding the gun in your hands, shooting it and knowing which one -to use a Harry Potter analogy- is your wand!

Class A Handgun Makers in no particular order (we would choose these makers over Class B and C even if all guns from all three classes cost exactly the same)

Manurhin (France) r (flagship: MR-73)
Glock (flagship: Glock 17 Gen4)
Kahr (flagship: K9)
Sig Sauer (flagship: p226)
CZ (flagship: CZ 75)
Smith & Wesson r (flagship: Model 27 or 686? )
Walther (flagship: PPK)
Ruger r (flagship: Redhawk)
Beretta (flagship: 92FS)
IWI (Israel) (flagship: Desert Eagle)
Colt r (flagship: M1911 Special Combat Government)
Springfield Armory (flagship: 1911 Loaded or TRP)
Heckler und Koch
FN
Remington
Magnum Research r
Cabot Guns
Korth (Germany) r
Seecamp r
NAA r
Freedom Arms r
Caracal (UAE)
Steyr (Austria)
Sphinx (Switzerland)
Dan Wesson r
Coonan
Daewoo (South Korea)
Detonics
Infinity
Lionheart
Boberg Arms
Uberti r
F.lli Pietta r
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
Ed Brown
Guncrafter Industries
Nighthawk Custom
STI r
Bond Arms
Tanfoglio (Italy)
Valtro (flagship: 1998A1)

Class B Handgun Makers in no particular order (if we could only have one gun, we would only buy these guns if none of the comparable Class A guns were available) :

Kimber
Taurus (Brazil) r (flagship: PT92)
Browning
Rossi (Brazil) r
Arcus (Bulgaria) r
Charter Arms r
Auto Ordnance
FMK
Hi-Point (flagship: OD 45ACP with laser)
Kel-Tec (flagship: subK2)
Armscor/Rock Island Armory r
Canik (Turkey)
Diamondback
Stoeger
Girsan Yavuz (Turkey)
Bersa (Argentina) r (flagship: Thunder .380)
Arsenal Firearms
Heritage r

Am assuming the below are Class B, but I just don't know enough about them. Any Class A or Class Cs among the following? Otherwise, I'll just leave them in Class B:

BUL (Israel)
Zastava (Serbia) r
S.A.M. (Philippines) r
KORA Brno (Czech) r
Alfa Proj (Czech) r
American Classic (Philippines)
MAC (Philippines)
Grand Power (Slovakia)
Norinco (China) r
Weihrauch/Arminius (Germany) r

Class C Handgun Makers in no particular order (we would only buy these if we couldn't get our hands on anything comparable from A or B. If there is something in B that you consider worse than something in C, let's move the guy from B down, rather than moving the guy from C up. C is underpopulated at the moment)

Chiappa (Italy) r
Cobra r
Accu-Tek
Bryco/Jennings/Jimenez
Comanche (Argentina) r
Phoenix Arms
S.P.S. (Spain)
High Standard (Texas, not Connecticut)
SCCY

("r" after the make denotes they currently make revolvers also)

Please also tell me if I am missing any contemporary (not interested in defunct) handgun gun makers from anywhere in the world.

I will keep editing the list using your feedback.

Thnx.

Last edited by Sigmund Sauer; 07-11-2015 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 07-08-2015, 03:51 PM
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You were doing fairly good in your first list for the most part, no way in heck would I have included Taurus!

The best that can be said for that company is there product reputation is very spotty!
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Old 07-08-2015, 03:58 PM
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Korth and see camp should be on the top list.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:04 PM
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Taurus makes some very nice guns that are good hunting-target-SD, etc. at reasonable prices-however, this might not be the place to get objective feedback on that brand, as S&W used to own them.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:08 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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Thanks very much for this first round. If there is a consensus that Taurus is more Economy Class than First Class, I will edit my post to reflect that?

If more people agree that Korth and Seecamp should be up there in First Class, I will move them, too.

Let me know .

Cheers.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:11 PM
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Korth goes to the top of the top list, just after Casull (Freedom Arms). Seecamp is there, also. Possibly NAA, also - I myself do not know. As stated, Taurus does not belong on that list.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:12 PM
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This list isn't going to work without assigning era's to the respective manufacturers . . . Best manufacturer in one era may be the worst in another. Look at Kimber, for one example. Once great, now average.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
This list isn't going to work without assigning era's to the respective manufacturers . . . Best manufacturer in one era may be the worst in another. Look at Kimber, for one example. Once great, now average.
Plus, even the "Top List" manufactures make ho-hum models that can tag along with the reputation of their better guns.

One thing I don't think is arguable, and that is that Korth is definitely a Top List maker, and might even be in it's own category above that.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:19 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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OK, I have included Freedom Arms and have moved Korth, NAA and Seecamp to First Class. Am moving Taurus to Economy.

If someone seconds moving Kimber to Economy (either in post or by "liking" Muss Muggins' post), I will move them down.

Thanks very much for this first round of feedback. Very useful.

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Old 07-08-2015, 04:20 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
This list isn't going to work without assigning era's to the respective manufacturers . . . Best manufacturer in one era may be the worst in another. Look at Kimber, for one example. Once great, now average.
I'm looking at ONLY right NOW - 2015. Thanks.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:39 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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Whoops - my buddies are already telling me I forgot two makers:

Boberg Arms

Bond Arms

Where would those go? 1st Class or Economy?
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:40 PM
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Re: "in their best models, these makers focus really mainly on quality and price is only an afterthought. "
I'm pretty sure most of the manufacturers on the top list would be disqualified if you stick with this qualification.

If you are looking for the best gun by each manufacturer you should probably be looking at the models geared toward target shooters. Most military, police dept., or SD buyers are looking for something reasonably priced that will fill their needs - not the cheapest model but conversely not the best model available either.

With that said I would add Manurhin to the top list. Their MR73 was a special forces revolver built to withstand 150 rounds of full power .357 Magnum every day indefinitely.

Last edited by reddog81; 07-08-2015 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:51 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddog81 View Post
Re: "in their best models, these makers focus really mainly on quality and price is only an afterthought. "
I'm pretty sure most of the manufacturers on the top list would be disqualified if you stick with this qualification.
If you are looking for the best gun by each manufacturer you should probably be looking at the models geared toward target shooters. Most military, police dept., or SD buyers are looking for something reasonably priced that will fill their needs - not the cheapest model but conversely best model available either.
With that said I would add Manurhin to the top list. Their MR73 was a special forces revolver built to withstand 150 rounds of full power .357 Magnum every day indefinitely.
My goodness! Just looked at those Manurhin guns, and I know what I want for Christmas!!!! I had never heard of them, but that looks like ultimate quality.

Understood what you said about price consciousness - will edit my original post to reflect that. Thanks much.
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:06 PM
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Are you on the fence about Charter Arms? I see it in two locations.
No matter, it probably does not belong in the boutique class. economy is a better bet.
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:14 PM
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SCCY in Economy Class?
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:25 PM
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Armscor/Rock Island Armory. Probably sells more 1911's than anyone else, needs to be added to list. I cannot be objective as to what category as I love my RIA 9mm 1911.
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:54 PM
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Armscor/Rock Island Armory. Probably sells more 1911's than anyone else, needs to be added to list. I cannot be objective as to what category as I love my RIA 9mm 1911.
I just watched hickok45 reviewing it. He really appreciated the gun, but definitely always stated "for its price" etc. Would you be offended if I put it in Economy, tentatively?
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:59 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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SCCY in Economy Class?
Done, thank you very much.
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:37 PM
GtownGeorge GtownGeorge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmund Sauer View Post
I just watched hickok45 reviewing it. He really appreciated the gun, but definitely always stated "for its price" etc. Would you be offended if I put it in Economy, tentatively?
I let others decide, yes it is cheap, yes it goes bang everytime. I just do not buy guns because they are pretty, and a RIA will never be called pretty. I did some research and since it was my first 1911 and it was in a caliber that's cheap compared to .45ACP I bought it. I will never sell it, my grandson has his eyes on it.
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Are you on the fence about Charter Arms? I see it in two locations.
No matter, it probably does not belong in the boutique class. economy is a better bet.
Besides the fact that in the 1970s the infamous Son of Sam murders in NYC were accomplished with a Charter Arms .44 Special (Bulldog?), and while I have read some decent reviews of late, I have never seen Charter Arms categorized as handmade "luxury" firearms or "boutique" anything. Economy class at best, I'm thinking, but maybe there's some nuance in what Charter Arms does that I am missing. I can't wait to hear comments on that.

As for Bond Arms, they make extremely high quality derringers, but if you're betting your life on a Bond Arms derringer good luck with that. They are very difficult to operate or shoot well compared to what you can do with a small revolver or pistol.

As for Para-Ordnance, it is now a Cerberus/Freedom/Remington company and I cannot imagine that Remington is doing anything with those guns except normal manufacturing. If they make them by hand somebody please let me know.
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmund Sauer View Post
I just watched hickok45 reviewing it. He really appreciated the gun, but definitely always stated "for its price" etc. Would you be offended if I put it in Economy, tentatively?
Yes, Rock Island handguns are economy grade. Good guns, but not in the arena of Korth, Manhurin, etc. Not sure Bersa belongs up there either.

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Old 07-08-2015, 07:04 PM
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Not a Kimber fanboy, but wouldn't classify it as 2nd tier.
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:59 PM
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IMHO, this data could be more fairly portrayed with overlapping sets, as with a Venn diagram. There is often a wide range of perceived quality spread across a single manufacturer's offerings, as well as some 'budget' makers selling some truly excellent products.
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
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Yes, Rock Island handguns are economy grade. Good guns, but not in the arena of Korth, Manhurin, etc. Not sure Bersa belongs up there either.
Can't figure out why you would say a RIA is not in the same class as a Korth. I am not sure anything on the list is in the same class as a Korth. Let's use cars as an example, RIA is a Chevy and a Korth is a Lambo.
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:13 PM
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Lets not forget that lousy Jennings. Should go in the bottom of the heap! Think they got sued and folded.
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:30 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
As for Bond Arms, they make extremely high quality derringers, but if you're betting your life on a Bond Arms derringer good luck with that. They are very difficult to operate or shoot well compared to what you can do with a small revolver or pistol.
I understand completely what you're saying, but that's a discussion for another time. Here I am only concerned with the question: are theirs among the best of derringers? And you seem to be saying they are.

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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
As for Para-Ordnance, it is now a Cerberus/Freedom/Remington company and I cannot imagine that Remington is doing anything with those guns except normal manufacturing. If they make them by hand somebody please let me know.
OK, thanks, will be moving them to regular First Class then.
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:32 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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Quote:
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Yes, Rock Island handguns are economy grade. Good guns, but not in the arena of Korth, Manhurin, etc. Not sure Bersa belongs up there either.
OK, moving Bersa to economy.
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:33 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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Not a Kimber fanboy, but wouldn't classify it as 2nd tier.
Thanks. Would love it if we could get some more thoughts on whether Kimber belongs in the S&W category or in the Taurus category.
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:38 PM
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Lets not forget that lousy Jennings. Should go in the bottom of the heap! Think they got sued and folded.
One of their workers, a guy called Jimenez, bought the company for 500k and continued it under his own name. It's under "Economy" as you would expect...
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:54 PM
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Kimber still makes excellent 1911s.

They get a unjustified bad rap for a few reasons:

1) People buy them, run home and install new springs, shock buffers, etc, to "upgrade" them, and then wonder why they won't run. That's particularly the case with the commander and officer framed models where the slide over run is already limited. With those models in particular swapping springs and adding aftermarket gizmos seriously screws with he engineering.

2) Kimbers have fairly tight tolerances and you won't see the great reliability they are capable of producing, until you've put a couple hundred rounds through them. The average internet expert is already bashing it on his favorite forum before that happens.

3) Many 1911 owners schooled on series 70 and 80 Colts disassemble and re-assemble Kimber 1911s incorrectly. The Schwartz safety system is well designed and very durable, but it can be damaged by shooters who remove and put the slide back on the pistol incorrectly. It's activated by the grip safety, not the trigger, so if you try to remove the slide, or replace the slide with the grip safety depressed, the pin that de-activates the firing pin safety will be elevated into the path of the slide you are trying to remove or install on the frame.

The more intellectually challenged shooters will then try to muscle it on or off with a couple of good firm whacks while tightly gripping the grip (and depressing the grip safety. Eventually, the pin cracks and shears resulting in a failure. Which of course the shooter then blames on the design, on Kimber, or on pretty much anyone or anything other than themselves.

4) A related issue with many 1911s, not just Kimbers is that many 1911 shooters don't understand 1911 magazine feed lips and feed geometry of a 1911 in general. They also don't understand the relationship between feed lip design, bullet point shape and feed geometry.

If you have a Kimber and you don't mess with the springs or the extractor, and you use a Kimber mag, or an after market mag properly matched to the point shape of the bullet, and you'll get great reliability. Fail to understand any of the above and you run the risk of having some feed issues. Just don't blame the pistol.

---

I own a Gold Match II and it's both superbly accurate and extremely reliable.

The same applies to my Kimber Ultra Carry II - it's unbelievably accurate for a short 1911 and mine has bene utterly reliable from about 200 rounds onward. The main thing with the Ultra Carry and Pro Carry pistol is to change the recoup springs on schedule - with stock replacements.
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:03 PM
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I would put Steyr higher than economy class. Several guys round here and me have owned/do own Steyr M9 or S9 pistols and they work well.
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:10 PM
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What is your meaning of "economy"? Is it the price or the quality or both?

Reason I'm asking is cause you have a few manufacturers in there that while they are cheap in price their quality is quite good. Canik and Grand Power to name a few. Zastava is one that doesn't quite fit anywhere. For a military handgun from the 50s it's good, it's reliable. For a modern gun it's lacking a few modern features
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:20 PM
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You put Zastava in the second tier and that's somewhat unjustified.

They make superb Mauser style bolt action rifles and have done so since 1924. They also use their own in-house barrels and they are superbly made and capable of excellent sub MOA accuracy.

The problem is that from time to time importers like CAI sell them with rather crude stocks - although the metalwork is still very well done, with a very nice polish and a wonderful deep blue finish.

Zastava made the Zastava Model 70 for Interarms for nearly 30 years, who sold them as the Interarms Mk X. Interarms also sold the Zastava Model 85 as the Mini Mk X for about 15 years. They were available in both complete rifle format and as barreled actions, often used to create some very nice custom rifles.

Charles Daly sold the Model 70 and Model 85 with composite stocks and Remington sold them as the Rem 798 and Rem 799 with laminated wood stocks. Which of course mean that between the Mk X, Mini Mk X, 798, 799 and Charles Daly models out there, you can readily find an after market or NOS stock to replace what is on the current CAI imports, and end up with a nice rifle with decent wood, for a lot less than you could buying something comparable.




The same applies to the CZ 99 Precision - a .22 LR bolt action repeater that has been imported by Remington as the Model 5, as well as by Charles Daly and currently by CAI. They are also well made rifles with very heavy, stiff receivers that are capable of excellent accuracy.




------

You've also painted everything made by Chiappa with the same broad brush.

Chiappa does market some seriously low end firearms. However, Armi-Sport (which produces the actual firearms as a subsidiary of Chiappa) makes some excellent reproductions of various rifles like the 1859, 1863, and 1874 Sharps, as well as a few different variants of the Winchester 1892, all of which are very nicely made. You'll find them sold by Cimarron and other vendors who order them with very high specifications for finish and function.

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Old 07-08-2015, 09:24 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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I would not include Arsenal in the list of top tier guns. I would probably move STI to boutique and Sphinx to 1st class. The rest of the uncertain list should go to economy or "plan B."

I am not aware of a Rossi from Italy. Rossi has always been from Brazil so far as I know. Rossi was actually a very good revolver, but since Taurus bought Rossi, I am not so sure.

Caracal and Steyr probably move to the first list.

Those would be my mods to your list.
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:48 PM
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What is the definition of "quality?"

On the list I see some economy class guns, like Arcus, that are serious military grade, but not pretty. Some of the pretty boutique guns, while very expensive, are not up to the task of serving a soldier or policeman.
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:51 PM
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You put Zastava in the second tier and that's somewhat unjustified.

They make superb Mauser style bolt action rifles and have done so since 1924.

Chiappa does market some seriously low end firearms. However, Armi-Sport (which produces the actual firearms as a subsidiary of Chiappa) makes some excellent reproductions of various rifles like the 1859, 1863, and 1874 Sharps, as well as a few different variants of the Winchester 1892, all of which are very nicely made. [/IMG]
Thank you very much. I have only taken their handguns into consideration. Those rifles do look beautiful, and I am aware they have a very good reputation. I have read their handguns aren't quite as good.
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:57 PM
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What is the definition of "quality?"

On the list I see some economy class guns, like Arcus, that are serious military grade, but not pretty. Some of the pretty boutique guns, while very expensive, are not up to the task of serving a soldier or policeman.
Interesting thinking. I totally see what you mean. I'm probably going for something like a feel of supreme quality and solidity. There are Toyotas that are perhaps as sturdy and as reliable as the best Mercedeses. But no Toyota feels like a First Class car. They do what is necessary and they do that well. But they don't try and go beyond.

In First Class, I am only looking to include guns that someone with unlimited means might still choose to buy. No one would probably choose a Taurus over a S&W or a Sig if money wasn't an issue (and it didn't happen to be the Curve he was in love with). That's what I mean. I'm looking for guns you wouldn't be surprised to see a billionaire carry.

First Class:

Rolls Royce
Jaguar
Mercedes
Ferrari
BMW
Cadillac
Range Rover

Economy:

Chevrolet
Volkswagen
Toyota
Opel

I know that it would probably make sense to have a "business class" section - (a Glock is not a Sig or even an H&K), but I prefer to keep it simple.

(Recently, I chatted with a Santa Monica police officer. He carried a H&K pistol, and was very proud: "LAPD - they have Glocks. They can't afford these.")

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Old 07-08-2015, 10:08 PM
Kframerbluvr Kframerbluvr is offline
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Kimber still makes excellent 1911s.

They get a unjustified bad rap for a few reasons:

1) People buy them, run home and install new springs, shock buffers, etc, to "upgrade" them, and then wonder why they won't run. That's particularly the case with the commander and officer framed models where the slide over run is already limited. With those models in particular swapping springs and adding aftermarket gizmos seriously screws with he engineering.

2) Kimbers have fairly tight tolerances and you won't see the great reliability they are capable of producing, until you've put a couple hundred rounds through them. The average internet expert is already bashing it on his favorite forum before that happens.

3) Many 1911 owners schooled on series 70 and 80 Colts disassemble and re-assemble Kimber 1911s incorrectly. The Schwartz safety system is well designed and very durable, but it can be damaged by shooters who remove and put the slide back on the pistol incorrectly. It's activated by the grip safety, not the trigger, so if you try to remove the slide, or replace the slide with the grip safety depressed, the pin that de-activates the firing pin safety will be elevated into the path of the slide you are trying to remove or install on the frame.

The more intellectually challenged shooters will then try to muscle it on or off with a couple of good firm whacks while tightly gripping the grip (and depressing the grip safety. Eventually, the pin cracks and shears resulting in a failure. Which of course the shooter then blames on the design, on Kimber, or on pretty much anyone or anything other than themselves.

4) A related issue with many 1911s, not just Kimbers is that many 1911 shooters don't understand 1911 magazine feed lips and feed geometry of a 1911 in general. They also don't understand the relationship between feed lip design, bullet point shape and feed geometry.

If you have a Kimber and you don't mess with the springs or the extractor, and you use a Kimber mag, or an after market mag properly matched to the point shape of the bullet, and you'll get great reliability. Fail to understand any of the above and you run the risk of having some feed issues. Just don't blame the pistol.

---

I own a Gold Match II and it's both superbly accurate and extremely reliable.

The same applies to my Kimber Ultra Carry II - it's unbelievably accurate for a short 1911 and mine has bene utterly reliable from about 200 rounds onward. The main thing with the Ultra Carry and Pro Carry pistol is to change the recoup springs on schedule - with stock replacements.

Thanks for your comments on Kimber. There is a lot of Series II Kimber bashing on other forums I read. My old pre-Swartz Kimber is very reliable and a great shooter.
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:10 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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What is your meaning of "economy"? Is it the price or the quality or both?

Reason I'm asking is cause you have a few manufacturers in there that while they are cheap in price their quality is quite good. Canik and Grand Power to name a few. Zastava is one that doesn't quite fit anywhere. For a military handgun from the 50s it's good, it's reliable. For a modern gun it's lacking a few modern features
Looking for something that someone would buy who knew a lot about guns and for whom price was not an issue. A gun you wouldn't be surprised to see a billionaire carry. Today. Only present day counts.
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:16 PM
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Kimber in the economy class? Not at the gun shops around here.
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:19 PM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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OK, signing off for a day. Have integrated all input. Thank you very much. Will integrate all further feedback tomorrow evening. Please post any insights you may have on this list. I am taking your posts very seriously, as you can see.
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:28 PM
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I noticed that Coonan is in the economy class. That's probably not right. While you aren't going to find a .357 magnum 1911 in a duty holster, I would consider it a boutique or high end gun.
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Old 07-08-2015, 10:32 PM
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I would consider Dan Wesson in the first class, but not boutique range.
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Old 07-08-2015, 11:18 PM
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I noticed that Coonan is in the economy class. That's probably not right. While you aren't going to find a .357 magnum 1911 in a duty holster, I would consider it a boutique or high end gun.
Couldn't stay away from the forum Glad you found that. Will change it. It was moved down with a whole bunch of handguns upon a poster's request. Didn't feel right. Will move it back. Thanks very much.
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Old 07-08-2015, 11:21 PM
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I would consider Dan Wesson in the first class, but not boutique range.
You're right. Done. Thanks.
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Old 07-08-2015, 11:53 PM
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If Les Baer is listed as a Boutique First class handgun, then Korth cannot be considered a production gun, even since they moved to Lollar and got a new machine park.
Korth in Ratzeburg produced an average of 7 revolvers per month in 2008, right before they closed that facility, Les Baer or Wilson churn out multiples of that and give less time to handfitting and finishing.

If you spend the $1,000 + on a Uberti 1873 lever action, you will end up with a rifle that is much, much better made than a Winchester Miroku 1894 Ranger. Their Colt SAA clones are well made and respected.
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:07 AM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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If Les Baer is listed as a Boutique First class handgun, then Korth cannot be considered a production gun, even since they moved to Lollar and got a new machine park.
Korth in Ratzeburg produced an average of 7 revolvers per month in 2008, right before they closed that facility, Les Baer or Wilson churn out multiples of that and give less time to handfitting and finishing.

If you spend the $1,000 + on a Uberti 1873 lever action, you will end up with a rifle that is much, much better made than a Winchester Miroku 1894 Ranger. Their Colt SAA clones are well made and respected.
Should I move Korth to "boutique"?

Not sure what your pointa bout Uberti is. I'm not looking at rifles. Or is that a signature line? If you know about Uberti - my question is: should they be in First Class for their handguns (only revolvers, I think), or should they be Economy. I know they're not cheap. But are they supremely well made, with quality over cost?
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:20 AM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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Quote:
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Are you on the fence about Charter Arms? I see it in two locations.
No matter, it probably does not belong in the boutique class. economy is a better bet.
Goodness, it slipped into the boutique section by mistake. Economy Class, of course, you are right. Thanks for pointing out the error. Any other things that bother you on the list?
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Old 07-09-2015, 12:22 AM
Sigmund Sauer Sigmund Sauer is offline
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Quote:
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Are you on the fence about Charter Arms? I see it in two locations.
No matter, it probably does not belong in the boutique class. economy is a better bet.
Goodness, it slipped into the boutique section by mistake. Economy Class, of course, you are right. Thanks for pointing out the error. Any other things that bother you on the list? I feel like there probably are some amazing guns among the foreign ones that I lumped into Economy?
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Old 07-09-2015, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks. Would love it if we could get some more thoughts on whether Kimber belongs in the S&W category or in the Taurus category.
To my mind, Kimber belongs firmly in the Smith/SA category and Taurus belongs in the economy category, below RIA. Just my opinion.
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