I own a number of older tiring S&W 3rd gen pistols, I've always trusted them with my life to carry, on the job, and in competition. I've completely lost interest in S&W automatics though. I have found that Beretta pistols have been immediately familiar with the slide mounted safety / decocker and they fit my all of my needs for new pistols.

I'm not and never have been a fan of polymer framed handguns... I've toyed with Glock, and H&K and find them lacking... well just lacking.

What's next? I'm waiting for the day S&W finds a way to make polymer framed revolvers. I guess this business model S&W took has been profitable.

At any rate, I'm wondering if I'm alone or has S&W backed themselves in a corner and lost many customers?

I have owned S&W semi - automatics, but never was a fan of them. I do like their revolvers. I wish they would go back to the hammer mounted firing pin and drop the IL, but that's not going to happen.

What's wrong with carrying the 3rd Gens you have? Exactly how "old and tired" are they?

Beretta is a fine choice, too. Just curious.

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Because of the metric system?

Beretta still makes all metal handguns and S&W(with the exception of 1911s)doesn't. Is that what you're getting at?

S&W hasn't lost me as a customer,......they never had me as a customer. Roughly 90 S&W handguns in the box and I've never purchased one new so it doesn't much matter to me what they want to make. They've pretty much guaranteed that I will never buy a new S&W but I seriously doubt they much care about that. If they feel they've 'lost' me I'm sure they're comforted by the fact that they've gained thousands of others. If they weren't making polymer handguns they'd be out of business by now so I suppose I'm happy for them.

I don't see the pool of older used S&Ws drying up any time soon, so I'm happy for me too.

Don't think they backed themselves into any corner. If they did then im sure we'd hear about it, just like with Colt. I'm sure if they can produce an all steel semi auto with the weight and price of a polymer they would. But they don't seem to be doing that bad with their M&P line. As far as I'm concerned they can make them out of paper, tree bark, lawn clippings, dry wall....etc.. my ONLY requirement is that they work

I don't like plastic guns I carry either a M59 or 5904. My Son likes his M9. As long as you are comfortable with your gun why should I care? I don't have any stock in a gun company.

I have a grand total of ONE polymer handgun which I won at an NRA banquet. It remains new in the box. I carried a Beretta Model 96 for years and would go back to it in a minute if necessary.
Jim

I really, REALLY don't like tupperware -- at least, not at all the way I love my prized handguns. No way. No heart, no soul, just a tool. But it is a tool that does what I truly need from it:

always shoots
always runs, feeds, extracts and ejects
I hit very well with them
I sweat on them
they get lint and dirt on them
get banged in to door frames
carry lighter on my belt
don't get any uglier or worn when carried

So I carry my tupperware and use it like the tool it is, and would never subject my much-loved and prized metal handguns to the same kind of role.

And I can't find a place in my safe for a Beretta.

I was skeptical when we transitioned to the Glock but after the training, several years of carrying on duty, and now the gun (Gen II G23) is retired w/me. It still runs great but is not carried anymore, just too heavy and bulky for retirement.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

You did not say what Beretta you are carrying? If it is a 92 then more power to you. Great gun but I sure would not lug one around all day. I love Sigs but still pretty hefty to carry,

Maybe up North with heavy outer clothing on.

A SW 3913 would be the only SW I would carry.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Grousing over the demise of 3rd Gen S&W autos is like complaining about the cost of .22s. It won't do us much good, except maybe to make us feel better.

THE all metal handgun in semiautos has always been the 1911, and S&W makes many good ones. SIG Sauer still makes nice ones, as do lots of other companies including Beretta. S&W may jump back into that market some day. For now they are preoccupied with flattening Glock's nose, which is OK with me. I would like to see American cops wearing American guns again... some day.

Plain economics.

The amount of materials and time spent on the SW semi autos could not be made today for a price that people want to pay.
Heck the stainless guide rod, bushing, decocker levers on a 2nd gen 9mm is more metal than most polymer guns today.

CZ still makes some really nice metal guns, Some alloy frame
I also like them with hammers and decockers.

They feel the need for 16 or more rounds and want to pay less than $400.

Tupperware does not look as nice as metal but Polymers like Zytel are actually stronger against solvents, freezing, heat and breakage than metal.

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Still Running Against the Wind

S&W shares are at the highest they have been since 2007 and have been rising steadily for about five years. If that's a corner, then I don't think they backed themselves into it, I think they are happy to be there. They have not lost customers, their market share has only increased with the M&P line. If they are able to get the new U.S. military contract, they will really be thrilled.

I much prefer the 3rd gen guns over the currently popular guns, but S&W had to do something to compete with Glock and the 3rd gens weren't getting the job done. It isn't the fault of S&W that the market saw the Glock as the perfect gun and only wanted Glocks or Glock-like guns. It's not like Horace and Dan are sitting around deciding what they want to make / how to make a better mousetrap in their little factory.

A corporation's duty is to produce good returns for its shareholders, and that means judging the larger market and meeting its demands, not trying to appease a minority of people like you and me, and if that means making plastic guns, then they are going to make plastic guns. I actually have no problem with polymer; I just prefer DAO and DA/SA guns over most striker-fired guns for work/defense purposes.

(A polymer framed third gen gun would be interesting)

If S&W had not come up with something like the M&P, they would quite possibly be gone now. Beretta is no different. If Beretta keeps losing law enforcement sales and military contracts, with the 92 (M9), it will go away, so if that is the gun you really enjoy, it might be worth buying a backup or a supply of parts.

Luckily, I think my 3rd gen guns will last as long as I need them to, and I have made sure to have spare parts and such to facilitate that. I wish the 3rd gens were still being made, but I understand why they aren't.

Glocks are made in the USA

Just a few models. GARY

Kinda like the CZ 75

So...I guess Beretta doesn't have a forum?

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

They already do... the "bodyguard" but not the same as the older Bodyguards.

What Beretta do you carry? Love the 92 just a bit big for me.

You are definitely not alone. Within this past year I have purchased a PX4 Compact and also the Nano, and have been extremely happy with both. The ergonomics on both work well for me, and the PX4 Compact is extremely accurate and less recoil than any other compact I have tried.
One other aspect of owning Beretta firearms that I like, is that if I have a technical question and the answer is not on their web based CS, if I send them an electronic inquiry, I get a complete and informative response quickly, typically within a day.

I honestly love Berettas. I will always own one.


When I open my safe this is next to the Beretta. This S&W 3953 is my main CCW when I want a 9mm, a Shield is my second choice.

S&W has fine engineers and timid management. They cratered on the IL and lost the respect of their customers and a lot of sales. When Glop started cleaning their clock, they followed with more tupperware rather than innovating and introducing new features of their own.

The company has been in the tank several times, but seems to be doing well now. But could it do better?

I find it frustrating that rather than capitalizing on their brand and reputation for service, they seem to have completely ignored our segment of the market. I can't believe that metal pistols are any more costly to produce than 1911's or that the market for S&W 1911's is any larger than the market for 3d gen pistols.

Management probably thinks we should be thankful that they still support 3d gens with parts support - even if they have cut stock levels to conserve cash to chase an elusive Army contract they are unlikely to win.

Hang in there guys. The worm will turn and the new management that replaces the current non-gun bean counters will come crawling back to their base (or go the way of Colt).

I have a Beretta 96A1. Love it, I just wish they had applied the same feature of the 90-Two; the ability to convert to decock-only from safety/decock. Whey they left that out on the 92/96A1's I don't know...seeing as how the A1's and the 90-Two are internally the same (except the grip frame).

California HP had S&W do a special order to remake the 4006TSW to replace their elderly 4006's. The gen 3's were long out of production, but with CHP having over 6000 officers that's a significant order + the extra's they'll order too.

I'm with you, I think S&W gen 3's are fine especially their TSW's, but they could have modernized those a bit more and had a real nice set up. Just my opinion.

Wilson Combat makes a very cool low-pro safety lever for the 90 series BTW. It's RH only though.

My main carry Beretta is an Elite in 9mm (Brigadier type slide factory NS) the only mod it has is an extended mag release reversed to the right side.

I also carry an Elite II in .40 no mods at all. For backup when needed I have a 92 compact or a 6906 which is relatively new.

Before I bought into Berettas I never thought I'd be able to replace the S&W's on my hip.

BTW, the Elites are full sized, I'm 5'4" and have no problem concealing them, though the front stowed IWB is "distracting" while I'm on my crotch rocket :-)

Whoa, those are some nice ones!

I guess I should have worded it better, I can't get good trigger reach for the DA pull. The over all size is not to much of an issue for CC.

Does all metal mean all steel ? I would think the polymer is probably superior to aluminum in several aspects...****n away......................................

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Forum consigliere

I carry either my 3913 TSW or PX4 Compact. Same Alien Gear IWB holster. Equally easy to carry. Actually the PX4 is easier to shoot well. Both great firearms but the 3913 is prettier.

I like Beretta shotguns, but all my handguns remain Smiths. My favorite carry handgun bar none remains a S&W CS45.Backed up by a CS9. In a few years, I could see myself changing or swapping that out with a Smith Lightweight 357 revolver. I have not owned one, but the Smith polymer 380 and 9mm pocket guns look nice to me

its not that S&W has gone plastic, its that they've stopped servicing their Gen3 guns.

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I'm only allowed 30 characters

I like my 3913LS just fine for carrying, but my plastic H&K USP is my first choice for defense around home. I don't care for striker-fired pistols; but don't mind plastic DA/SAs.

I DO have a Beretta. It's a Cheetah --- a fine little .22 and I enjoy it.

I'm sure that S&W just paid attention to what Glock and the other plastic pistols was doing to their sales and decided to jump in the same pool.

That said, I also have left the 3rdGen fan box, and I do have a Beretta (Centurian).
However, I have recently discovered the incredible high quality, dependability, and price advantage of the CZ line of pistols.
Specifically, I bought the CZ 75b in stainless and prefer it over my Beretta for form and function.
It is a very surprisingly accurate pistol, but to go even further, I then bought the CZ Tactical Sport (a target 9mm... not a "carry pistol" at all), and it's the most fun I've had in 9mm that I can remember.

Anyone who thinks that the 3rdGen's are becoming dated would do well to migrate to one of the Beretta 92's, but even more so by checking out the CZ's of whatever flavor appeals to you (SA, decocker, compact, full size, alloy frame or steel frame or even plastic, target or carry, you name it).

M&Ps have only made S&W more money, so I would have to say its a good "corner".
They are lacking on development and I wonder if they will ever release if they want to take another piece of the market they just need to develop and M&P the size of a Glock 19.

The Shield is a great pistol. I have one and the wife has one. (and she hates guns and loves the Shield)

I will tell you I have two Beretta 92 blow up on me while on active duty. One the block broke and the slide went flying off. One trigger spring blew into my thumb. It happens, they are machines and had a ton of miles on them.

The Nano was our first plastic gun. Very accurate. Reliable at first, but just got to the point that my wife & I couldn't trust it. We sold it. I personally prefer the S&W 9mm Shield, as well as my Glock 43. My wife still prefers her S&W Model 60 revolver.

Why? One can't talk about other guns? I've seen Sigs discussed for pages and other guns as well

Because I don't see why someone would feel the need to trumpet that they're discarding one brand for another, especially on the original brands site. But that's just MY opinion.

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

The plastics used for guns such as Glock, M&P, SR, etc, are much weaker than the steel and aluminum alloys used in pistol frames.
They can be more crack resistant than the aluminum alloys.
They are not more resistant to heat, cold, or chemicals than metals.
The glass reinforced Nylon used is susceptible to some chemicals and acids.
Battery acid makes nylon brittle. It also makes active metals corrode.

Plastics are susceptible to UV and atmospheric pollution degradation.
They are more elastic and have more flex and give, which is sometimes good/sometimes bad.

Don't buy into the marketing department BS of how "superior" they are to steel or 7075 aluminum.
Their only superiority is the higher profit margin involved in molding plastic instead of casting/forging/milling metal.
Functionally, flip a coin.

I, for one, am SO tired of the same old BS excuse of how S&W would "go out of business" if they made all their guns from metal.
They already had all the tooling and R&D for making the 3rd gen guns.
Those costs had long been reversed.
What cost money was tooling up to be another "Me too" maker of ARs and 1911s.
As much as I like those two guns, the world does not need another maker of them.
Same goes for Ruger and Jammington.
What Jammington should have done was to have built their R51s correctly. They would have had a sweet seller.

I like my plastic framed pistols because they are light weight and reliable.
They are also narrower than a metal framed version of the same would be, because they don't have grip panels.
A 17 shot double stack 9mm that is thinner than a 1911 and MUCH thinner than a Beretta or CZ is a good thing (for me).

Plastic will never replace my steel and aluminum framed autos. I just don't cherish my Tupperware the way I do my metal.
However, my Tupperware gets carried much more often because it's much cheaper to replace than a nice 3rd gen.
My SR9 cost me about 15 dollars ($399 new) than my 4566 cost me ($380-something, lightly used).
However, I got a nice deal on both. More so on the 3rd gen.

My favorite handguns of all time are the M52 and the Python and the 29 and 27.
No way I'd carry them. Way too hard and expensive to replace.

The Tupperware is not exactly disposable but it's much more so than my nice pistols.

It's a love/hate thing for me.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

I have a Shield in 9mm which I am trying to like. It's O.K., but I still pick up my 1911's every time that I'm not shooting a revolver. I bought a 3913, but it just didn't fit my hand, nice gun but just not for me. I think I've been shooting revolvers and 1911's too long.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Plastic is fantastic but Steel is ideal. I have seen the new polymer revolvers and haven't heard anything bad about them but I want my wheel gun made of steel. Smith and Wesson still makes the best revolvers. Rugers are great but tend to be heavier than necessary.

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Have Gun Will Carry

Beretta has been making guns for 500 years or so - I bet they'll be fine.

I really like their pistolas -














Forum buddy Charles sent this WW2 vet my way:



I gave this little Model 20 to a friend at work -



Forum sharpie Erich traded me out of this little charmer of a .32 -



I have two of their great shotguns - this one and an AL391 that I still have to take some pictures of:





I even prefer my Garands to have a little Beretta in them:



I like my revolvers to be Smiths and Colts, but for most other things give me Eye-talian.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I seem to be missing something.
I've seen people in this thread and others, say that they don't carry there 3rd gens because they are to hard and/or expensive to replace.

What's happening to these carry guns, aliens, the Bermuda Triangle?

I think the sentiment is that in the event of a shooting the gun will be taken as evidence.

Having taken many guns as evidence, my belief is if its a good shooting you'll get it back. If its not, finding a replacement will be the very least of your worries.

Maybe the concern is that shooting it enough to be proficient will break it and no parts will be available. I figure if it breaks I should probably carry something else.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

So many things to weigh in on in this thread...

I do appreciate the advantages of polymer frame handguns in the context of concealed carry. For carry, I prefer the weight of a polymer frame over a metal frame. I prefer a simple fire control system. My preferred EDC is a compact, double stack, polymer framed, striker fired pistol.

A range fun gun is completely different because I'm not trying to conceal carry it. In this context, I prefer a full size, SA or DA/SA, hammer fired, metal frame (preferably steel). The additional mass of a steel frame pistol reduces perceived recoil, providing a more enjoyable experience.

My preference for revolvers is always metal frame (preferably steel). A polymer frame on a revolver is something I'm not ready to accept. The only way I can explain it is in the context of watches. While inconvenient in the context of modern watches, a mechanical movement, metal cased pocket watch is something special to own in the same way as a revolver.

As for what to carry, carry the handgun which best adapts to your preferred carry method and which you shoot the best. To clarify what I mean by "shoot the best": the pistol which you shoot the best under simulated stress. I agree with sig220.45. God forbid that I am ever forced to draw and fire my handgun in justifiable defense of my life, having to relinquish my firearm to law enforcement for investigation is the least of my worries. I'm carrying a handgun to defend my life. Why carry a cheaper gun that I don't shoot as well?

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-John

Beretta makes a very good, albeit a bit expensive gun and I would own one if I could just go out and buy a couple of anything I wanted.

But I have no problem with third gens. I think they are extremely reliable well-made weapons. If it were me and my third gens were 'old and tired', I'd do my best to get those fine pistols fixed up to last another 20-30 years w/o problems.

And if a certain make of gun has a configuration that you prefer, by all means get it. There has to be a few dozen iterations of de cocker, safety, mag disconnect, single/double action, etc.

Most of the better makes have several configurations in their line, but if they don't have what you like, find somebody that does. I don't think anybody will take you to task for that.

I guess I'm upbraiding you a bit, not because you like Beretta's, but because you invent negatives about the third gen S&W to justify it. For heaven's sake, buy a Beretta.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I'll have to think for a minute how many Berettas and S&W's (all generations) and Glocks I own.

My only concern is keeping my mind wrapped around the "manual of arms" for the one I happen to be carrying on any given day.

Psssst, I also own more than one color shirt.
They all cover my nakedness reasonably well.

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WWSSD?
What would Skeeter do?

I think S&W lost more sales because of their goofy lock on their revolvers than anything else they could have done more stupidly.
There are at least 5 S&W pistols (revolvers) that I did not and will not buy brand new that would have gone toward S&W's bottom line, and that is money of mine that S&W will never, ever see. Yes, "just because" of those locks.
And I'm just one guy...

As I acquire the ones I want without the locks, they all come from the used market, and that doesn't help S&W one teeny bit.

My first carry auto was a Beretta 92 Compact in 1988.... followed by a S&W 6906......

Tried Glock's 3 times a 19 and two 26s...... didn't like the feel in my hand , the trigger or the "safety"......worked fine...... I just didn't like them.

I did take advantage of the "great Glock takeover of the Police market" in the 90s...... to buy LNIB examples of Smiths, Beretta's and a few Sig's.. at stupid low used prices....

1) as the civilian market followed the Police community trading their home defense guns (bought after seeing "Die Hard" or "Lethal Weapon" in the 80s) for a 15 or 17 round Glock. ( LOL I have and still can get 17and 18 rd mags from Meg-gar for my Beretta's)

2) Folks traded 8+1 round 3913/14s and NLs for 10+1 Glock 26s or 27s....I reaped the reward of buying backups to my backups.... cus they were IMO too cheap to pass up.... at $250 to $325.

I would hate to be in a position today of only having my daily carry 3913NL and 3 or 4 mags...........but even then my odds of losing it (because it saved my or my families life) are much much less than being in a accident in a BMW that would cost $50,000 to replace.

Almost 20 years ago I decided there is really NO need to chase the newest and latest thing .......the greatest example of that philosophy is the 114 year old 1911 or the 60 year old Model 19!

This sub-forum is specifically for discussing "other brands", just like the title says.

I just ran across this post.


So....... It looks like they are scared of getting there 3rd gens confiscated.

The 3rd Gens AND the Berettas also have a place in my safe beside their 1911 and J, K and N brethren. I like them all. It's always good to have many different tools in one's tool box...

I've owned a few Berettas in my time, including a 92 and a PX4SC. I have small hands, and they are just a bit too chunky for my comfort.

A while back, I sold off most of my guns to standardize in 9mm, and also to keep only guns that are American made, offer a lifetime warranty, and have excellent customer service. (I'm not saying that everyone should do this, but this is what I wanted to do.) Beretta didn't meet those criteria, aside from the fact that I didn't like the way they fit my hand.

The guns that I own now are all S&W and Ruger. I do wish I had kept my Ruger SR1911, even though it was a .45...if they ever make one in 9mm, I'll be buying it!