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  #51  
Old 11-03-2015, 07:39 PM
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I heard from a buddy on HRT that they are now carrying Glock 17s, and that 17s are being sent to SWAT teams in the field Divisions.

In the topsy-turvy world of the Bureau, I think this makes it less likely the general issue pistol will be a Glock. HRT and SWAT have always carried something different from hump agents in the field - Novak Hi-Powers then the double stack 1911s for HRT, and the Springfield 1911s for Division SWAT.

I don't have any inside dope on the selection process, and it won't affect me anyway, but I think the general issue gun will be the Sig 320 or the M&P.
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  #52  
Old 11-04-2015, 04:42 PM
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With so many Polymer contenders meeting those specs I'd be hard pressed to decide who'll get the contract.

The lowest bidder, or the one with the most political clout.
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  #53  
Old 11-05-2015, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
Wow, a lot of bad info in an otherwise good thread.

As to the issue of the number of FBI gunfights and a supposed poor track record - I've been an agent for 24 years, and a firearms instructor for most of that time. The Bureau averages about 10 shooting incidents a year - admittedly not a lot for 14000 agents, that's still a couple of hundred in my time. I'm not aware of any that we "lost". We've had agents killed, but good guys are going to pay the price sometimes. All law enforcement agencies lose guys, but it doesn't mean they lose gunfights. I do know we've killed a hell of lot more of them than they have of us.

4/11/86 has been beaten to death on this and every other forum on the internet. I came in five years after it happened, and even then there were lots of lessons learned still being worked out and applied. To the general public (and especially the gun world) the whole thing was blamed on one 9mm Silvertip launched by Jerry Dove. Inside the Bureau there was massive soul searching and changes in tactics, training, and equipment. Its been almost 30 years, and we've arrested a lot of bad guys since then, without any similar occurrences. That would have played out a lot differently today - a SWAT or HRT roll most likely - due to the sacrifices made and lessons learned that dark day.

The "agents couldn't handle the mighty 10mm" thing has somehow gained internet credence. I've said it here before - no "full-power" 10mm ammo was ever issued to agents. The ammo gurus started with the 10mm cartridge and a ton of ballistic gel, then boosted the velocity of the 180 grain bullet until it did what they wanted. Then they stopped and said Hey, Federal - make us a few million of these.

The original idea was to have a semi-auto version of the .38/357 combo. Regular 10mm for everyday use, with the option to go to more powerful rounds should the need arise. The 1076 came and went and that angle was never developed. The .40 came about, and we adopted it.

Now the ammo gurus say the 9mm will do whatever the .40 will, and its cheaper. So for the next go 'round we'll get 9mms.

Guys who have .40s will keep .40s, unless they want to switch. New guys will get 9mms. As .40s retire or break, they'll be replaced by 9mms.

Doesn't matter to me, my Sig is grandfathered in, and I'll reach my Bureau expiration date before they drop it.

As an agent, I appreciate all the interest generated by our guns. But the Bureau doesn't issue guns or ammo to other agencies, so everyone is still free to buy whatever guns and ammunition they want to use.

We still have 10mms, by the way. They hold 30 rounds and shoot full auto.
Tactics have changed a lot since I started in 1984. So......I'm not going to criticize the Bureau's caliber switch. The current 9mm offerings are not your dad's 9mm!

Shot placement is now and always will be the key factor. I like my issued Glock 30 .45. But,I've seen numerous one shot stops in my career with the lowly .22lr & seen people survive solid torso hits w/ full house .357s and even shotgun wounds.

As much as I like my .45, if I went to work tomorrow and my agency switched back to the .40 or to the 9mm, I'd be OK w/ that. I'd simply train until I was skilled enough with it to survive a gunfight.

A department in my area is trading in their Glock 21s (.45) and getting Glock 9mms. The officers were on the range recently trying the 17 & 19 while I was qualifying several days ago. Each officer will be allowed to choose between these models. Everyone is getting a Glock 43 as a backup. (BTW..I got to shoot two mags through a 43 ....nice! ) The Georgia State Patrol has already traded in the .45 GAP for the Glock 17/43 combo also. My brother-in-law is a federal agent and carries his issued Sig P228 all over the world. The 9mm is a proven & viable option.

Anyway, the wind will change directions in a few years and the calibers that begin w/ the number 4 will be the rage again in LEO circles. Don't panic,learn to embrace change.... It's always temporary.
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  #54  
Old 11-05-2015, 02:05 PM
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If I was working as an agent I'd carry a tweeked 1911 in 45acp. With a 8rd mag plus one in the pipe. But my first choice would be the m58.

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  #55  
Old 11-06-2015, 08:47 PM
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I was at a multi-jurisdictional active shooter training the day before yesterday, and one of the other agencies was the Michigan State Police. I was talking to a troop, who told me that they have transitioned back to 9mm as well. My agency is also talking about going back to 9mm, and going away from Sig P226's and P229's, to Glock 19's and 17's. Traditionally, we have followed with whatever MSP has done, and I'm sure that this time will be no different.
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Old 11-06-2015, 09:51 PM
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I trained with the MSP in my area during their transition to the G17/G26 last month. Next week I plan to switch to the same platform. Makes sense in the area where I work, rural and remote.

On a lot of calls, its a Trooper backing me up, or me backing them up. To have the same pistols and ammo will allow for us to share/provide resources should one of us need it.
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Old 11-07-2015, 09:23 AM
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1. I have no problem with the 9mm (properly loaded) for "social work." Two of my three primary SD handguns are 9s (the 3rd is a 380 so a 9mm Light).

2. I wonder if the 9 is wanted due to its lower recoil in consideration of the growing number of female agents?

3. I am curious about the design requirements. No hammer? Why? I see no real disadvantage to having one. What am I missing? No grip safety? Why? Same comment as previous. No manual safety? This could be bad. Find Masaad Ayoob's article about the number of cops who were saved from being shot with their own guns when criminals were unable to make the gun work because the safety was engaged. Who came up with these demands? It almost sounds like the design requirements are so narrow that it eliminates all contenders save one. Smacks of a fix being in for one manufacturer.

I have never understood a large agency demanding all personnel carry the exact same sidearm. Call my kooky but I would think it better to let each individual choose the weapon that suits/fits him best.
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Old 11-07-2015, 10:49 AM
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One reason that makes me keep looking at the M&P and FNS is the manual safety. Currently carrying a 1911 for duty, as I prefer having a manual safety for duty use.
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Old 11-07-2015, 11:45 AM
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I wouldn't over think this. It all comes down to the budget.

The Bureau training budget has been reduced every year for the past decade or so. To its credit, the Bureau has not cut back on qualifications, so every one of the 14000 agents still burns about 1000 rounds a year. Add in SWAT guys who shoot more, HRT who shoot waaay more, and new agents in training who burn about 10K rounds each before graduation, and that is a lot of ammo. The cost of replacing guns every decade is small potatoes compared to all that pretty factory ammo.

The same "budget uber alles" rule affects the selection of guns. DAO means less time in training. The requirement for adjustable grip sizes means more justification for doing away with the personally owned weapons program.

Wait, say you - isn't it cheaper to let guys buy their own guns? Nope. I carry a grandfathered-in Sig. Because the gun vault does all maintenance (even on POWs) they have to have a Sig trained armored and keep parts on hand, just for me and maybe 100 other guys with POW Sigs. The "here's your gun, hope you like it" approach sucks to guys like me, but most folks don't care. It's worked for the Army for quite a while.

The change also has nothing to do with female agents. We had female agents in my class in 1991 in about the same proportion as we do now. We do have a lot more military veterans, both male and female, than we ever had.

One more and I'll shut up. The FBI issued round on 4/11/86 was a +P .38 Special. SA Dove had a 9mm Smith because he was on SWAT. The FBI continued to allow the use of 9mms without a break. I was issued a Sig P226 in the academy in 1991, which I gave back when I got my 220. Some kind of 9mm has been allowed during my entire career. What changed was the ammo. It's been a 147 grain of various makes over the years. I know I was issued Hydra Shoks at first, now I think it's a Gold Dot. But we never "abandoned" the 9mm.

Remember the B in FBI stands for Bureau, as in bureaucracy. When dealing with bureaucracy always think budget first.
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  #60  
Old 11-07-2015, 01:13 PM
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2. Probably because the 9 hollow point has come a long way in performance. The guns typically carry more ammo in their size. G17/22 17+1 vs 15+1. It's only 2 rounds with the Glock but it's not always the case. Although not issued anymore the 5906/4006 are 15 or 17+1 vs 11+1. Gives you more ammo on the street, and with 2 reloads that's 6 more rounds in the G17.

3A. Consistency. Each trigger pull is the same. Most gun fights are over in seconds and most of the time the first shot is off due to the trigger DA pull.
3B. There are probably just as many cops who got shot cause in all the excitement they forgot to disengage the safety. Forgetting the safety works both ways. Not all cops are gun enthusiasts and won't train daily to use the safety.
3C. No advantage to a grip safety. Once the gun is in your hand the safety is already off.


There needs to be uniformity. Not all cops are gun guys and there will be a %who will buy the cheapest because "a gun is a gun" also because mags are interchangeable and you can use your partner's mags. Same with the gun. If you had to use your partners gun you are familiar with it. Some departments like the NYPD and LAPD allow the officer to choose a gun but it's one of a few on a list of acceptable guns. They cannot just go and buy any gun they wish. Also these departments are large and chances of needing more ammo before a massive amount of backup arrives is slim to none. NYPD has something like 48 THOUSAND cops. So not only are the chances slim of running out of ammo before help arrives ....when it does someone will have ammo for you.
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