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  #1  
Old 10-18-2015, 04:20 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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Default FBI Request for Proposal for new 9mm pistols

As I am sure most of you already know, the FBI this month issued a Request for Proposal for new 9mm pistols. The details are at this site:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...=core&_cview=0

When you go to the above site, look for the "solicitation" and click on the link.

I have gone through the RFP and created an Excel spreadsheet showing the requirements, etc., in the RFP, which is 111 pages long. I have then set out a comparison between Glock, S&W, SIG Sauer, and FN to see which pistols have the required characteristics.

Bottom line: Not one pistol fits all requirements without some modification. That said, some are closer than others. Some issues will require significant change to comply (for example, finger grooves are not allowed on the frame); while other issues are easily rectified (for example, two different lengths of magazine release buttons, standard and extended slide stops, high visibility color for magazine followers, etc.).

I wish S&W luck with a contract that may not be lucrative, but for which residual sales will certainly be massive as buyers and other LE agencies often want to buy what the FBI uses.

I also caution all who participate that a failure/rejection will be damaging to the reputation of any maker, but especially to one that is selected, and thereafter unceremoniously dumped, as happened to S&W with the 1076. And, that was not even the fault of S&W.

Last edited by shawn mccarver; 10-18-2015 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:22 PM
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What did you come up with for a top five?

Here are some thoughts on conditions that stood out to me:

Quote:
The magazine catch shall be activated by depressing the catch with a lateral movement by the shooter’s thumb/finger.
It is not allowable to have a magazine catch which is activated by a downward movement.
Excludes the HK.
Quote:
Firing pin/Striker fired only.
Excludes all of the Sigs except the P320.
Quote:
The slide stop lever should be easily manipulated by both left and right handed shooters.
Ambidextrous slide stop levers are permitted.
Permitted but not required keeps the playing field large.
Quote:
MANUAL EXTERNAL SAFETY
None allowed. Only safeties which are disengaged by the rearward movement of the trigger are allowed (i.e., passive).
DECOCKING LEVER
None allowed.
GRIP SAFETY
None allowed.
As above, keeps the playing field large.
Quote:
SIGHTS
Material shall be made of steel and capable of withstanding:
20,000 round endurance firing cycle.
One handed immediate action drills where the shooter will utilize the front edge of the rear sight by supporting it against the edge of a ballistic shield, holster, etc., and cycling the slide.
Interesting. If Glock doesn't offer steel sights, I guess it's an easy enough upgrade for them to stay in the game.
Quote:
The sights delivered on the pistols shall be Trijicon, Bright and Tough NightTM Sights, or similar.
....SNIP....
It is preferred these sights be the Trijicon HD night sights (GL101O) or similar high visibility sights.
Well, that makes it easier. Are these already OEM on any pistols?
Quote:
FRAME/RECEIVER
Frames which allow for different hand sizes are required. Regardless of how each Contractor accommodates different hand sizes they must be able to support at least 3 sizes commonly referred to as small, medium and large.
Advantage Sig P320, or so it would seem until:
Quote:
Two acceptable methods of accommodating for different hand sizes are:
Multiple Frame Sizes
Two alternate sizes must be available and supplied with each pistol.
Grip/Frame Inserts
Two alternate sizes must be available and supplied with each pistol.
Sig would have to ship EACH pistol with three whole frames? Inserts would have the advantage in cost.
Quote:
Slide must fully cover the barrel (with the exception of the chamber portion of the barrel) allowing for no more than 0.25” of the muzzle to be exposed
Beretta's out.
Quote:
52.252-2 CLAUSES INCORPORATED BY REFERENCE (FEB 1998)
This clause means the government (probably DCMA) can access their manufacturing facilities to conduct Quality Management System audits and perform inspection/acceptance duties.

Last edited by Mainsail; 10-18-2015 at 07:15 PM. Reason: Remove footnotes
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:27 PM
ClayCow ClayCow is offline
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Interesting. No safeties other than the trigger.

Speaking of what people want to buy what the FBI has, I think i'll be getting Trijicon HDs. No idea what Trijicon 8 HD is though.
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:40 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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Mainsail:

As indicated, no pistol that I could find meets all requirements of the RFP. Remember that we are not just talking about the Class I and Class II pistol (basically a duty pistol and a longslide option - subcompacts, such as the Glock 26 or the M&P Compact are ruled out by barrel length and magazine capacity, among other things), but inert (Red handle) and Simunitions (Blue) pistols, and parts, tools, armorer courses, etc.

As far as pistols which are close, I came up with Glock 19 and 17, S&W M&P 9 and M&P 9 Longslide; SIG 320 in Compact (15 rd.), Carry (17 rd.), and Full (17 rd.) size grip modules, and FNS 9 and FNS 9 Longslide.

I ruled out HK's VP9 because there is only one size presently available, and because of the paddle magazine release.

I ruled out the Walther PPQ also, even though the PPQ M2 and PPQ M2 Longslide come close. The PPQ only has a capacity of 15 rounds, and the Class II pistol requires at least 16 rounds. That may not be a big deal, but it might. The reason is that the contract forbids magazine extensions or "+" adapters, etc.

Glock would have to modify its Gen 4 molds or create new ones as the contract forbids finger grooves on the frame.

As to your comments, I will offer my thoughts:

The prohibition on grip safeties would require a re-design of the Springfield XD-M.

Glock has a steel sight option, but the FBI wants specific Trijicon night sights, and Trijicon makes both models for the Glock, M&P and the P320.

As regards the exposed barrel and Beretta being out, Beretta's existing models are not striker fired, so they were out anyway. That said, don't count out the Beretta APX. I think they are behind the curve as there is apparently only one size in the APX line at this time, but it seems to meet as many or more of the requirements as the others, and as it has not been put into mass production yet, they can make changes before it goes into production. A long shot, but you never know.

Shawn

Last edited by shawn mccarver; 10-18-2015 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayCow View Post
Interesting. No safeties other than the trigger.

Speaking of what people want to buy what the FBI has, I think i'll be getting Trijicon HDs. No idea what Trijicon 8 HD is though.
It is Trijicon HD. The "8" you are seeing in Part I, Section C.4.14.g is a footnote, as in footnote 8. Footnote 8 relates back to footnote 7 (the "Ibid."), and it is simply a reference to Trijicon's address.

Last edited by shawn mccarver; 10-18-2015 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 10-18-2015, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
One handed immediate action drills where the shooter will utilize the front edge of the rear sight by supporting it against the edge of a ballistic shield, holster, etc., and cycling the slide.
I found this requirement interesting and somewhat ironic. The thing that came immediately to mind when I read it was, "They're remembering and applying a learned lesson from the Miami shootout" but the caliber choice would suggest otherwise.
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Old 10-18-2015, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
"They're remembering and applying a learned lesson from the Miami shootout" but the caliber choice would suggest otherwise.
I think I sense an invitation to a............... CALIBER WAR!!! :-)
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Old 10-18-2015, 08:09 PM
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It is curious the Feds would circle back to the 9mm after, as some others have pointed out, the 9 was singled out as the big reason things went the way they, (sadly), did in Miami. That said, I'm a little baffled about the interest, bordering on obsession in some cases, as to what various local, state and federal types carry. I've never based a personal purchase decision on what the Feds or LEOs are issued.
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Old 10-18-2015, 08:47 PM
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Actually the Miami/Dade Shootout was an ammunition failure. The FBI made specific requirements of the ammo they wanted, the ammo performed exactly as required and didn't do the job.
Everyone always wants whatever the FBI demands and the FBI has a terrible record of success in gunfights.
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Old 10-18-2015, 10:23 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muzzleblast View Post
I think I sense an invitation to a............... CALIBER WAR!!! :-)
Please, let's not. . . .

I started this thread about the possible launching platform, NOT about caliber. The caliber decision was made in late 2013 when the FBI selected its new 9mm ammunition. They had trials, selected the caliber and load, and now they are seeking a new pistol platform that works with that load.

So, please let's keep it focused on the launcher, not the cartridge. If we go to a caliber war, the thread will degenerate into the usual commentary. Let's not get this thread closed by the mods!
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Old 10-18-2015, 10:30 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
I've never based a personal purchase decision on what the Feds or LEOs are issued.
Nor have most of us, and we are lucky to be able to choose what we want.

That said, I am very concerned that those who protect us have the right equipment for the job because they are the ones putting their lives on the line.

The FBI may not get in many shootouts - one is too many, but the local LEOs and agencies who tend to follow the FBI do get into many dangerous shootouts against all sorts of bad people. I want all of our LEO people, federal, state, local, whether in uniform or plain clothes, to have good equipment so they have a better chance of going home to their wives and children at night.

In addition, the choice of FBI pistols is also worthy of discussion because whoever gets the contract will doubtless sell many times the number of pistols to other LEOs and agencies, not to mention the private sector, as are sold to the FBI. Let us hope S&W can put a big win in its column with the FBI contract.
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Old 10-18-2015, 10:38 PM
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Obstructed bore test?
Quote:
OBSTRUCTED BORE TEST PASS/FAIL
a) Two pistols from each class will be selected for this test.
i) Each pistol will be cleaned & lubricated per the Offeror's recommended specifications.
b) A service projectile will be lodged in the barrel so as to locate its base approx. 1” forward of a live chambered cartridge. The live service cartridge (54227) will be fired into the lodged projectile to determine the outcome of this event and to what, if any, extent the shooter would be injured.
c) The test will be recorded via the use of a high speed camera and witness panels. If it is determined the outcome of this event would reasonably result in serious physical injury to the shooter, by either of the two pistols, this will constitute a failure of this test. A failure of any pistol in this test will result in the Offeror being eliminated from further consideration.
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Old 10-18-2015, 10:58 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
Obstructed bore test?
Yes, a good quality bore should survive this. Remember that Ruger took its "tank tough" P85 and intentionally put a hardened steel rod down the barrel after threading it at the muzzle end to secure the rod in the barrel, and then they fired several rounds. Damage was so insignificant that a new barrel and one bent part (extractor, perhaps?) were replaced, and the gun was put back in service like nothing had ever happened.

This was about the time the military was having trouble with their Berettas blowing slides back off the frame into the shooter's face. After the obstructed bore test, they cut away a big chunk of the slide so that only a thin strip of metal on one side, if I recall, held the front section of the slide to the rear section. They then fired 5,000 rounds of NATO ammo without incident. The Ruger slide, cut nearly in half, did not come apart.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Ruger obstructed bore test.jpg (10.9 KB, 91 views)

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Old 10-18-2015, 11:05 PM
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Shawn, that you for taking the time and making the effort to analyze the new RFP. That has saved the rest of us a serious amount of time. However, I take serious issue with your implication in the first post that S&W was not at fault in the demise of the FBI 1076. I have spent years researching the saga of the FBI 1076 and have found that S&W shares a sizable portion of the responsibility for the failure of the pistol. As received by the FBI the pistols could easily be placed in two categories. They were either 100% and terrific reliable handguns or quite simply they were junk suffering multiple failures during the course of firing 2,500 rounds during New Agents Training. And the ratio was roughly 50/50. For example, S&W modified the barrel feed ramp to remedy the failure to feed problem; changed the heat treating protocol to remedy the broken extractor problem; modified the ejector to reduce breakage; redesigned and strengthened the trigger play spring to preclude breakage; and changed the magazine follower (yellow) material to reduce cracks (white). There were other problems as well including he unconscionable delay in addressing the FBI's concerns about the pistol. That failure to take prompt and effective action resulted in, among other things, the street Agent's loss of confidence in the weapon. S&W's failure to take the FBI's executive management seriously could only be described as suicidal. The FBI was by no means blameless. Actions by several FBI employees were illogical, irrational and often just plain ignorant. But it is a mistake to assign all the blame for the demise of the FBI 1076 to the Bureau. Based on the loss of confidence issue alone the FBI had no choice but to return the pistols to S&W under the contract's warranty clause.
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Old 10-18-2015, 11:11 PM
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Another 9mm? Again? I'm not buying anymore 9mm pistols. Another 1911 in 45acp maybe.

Last edited by BigBill; 10-18-2015 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 10-18-2015, 11:44 PM
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The pictures I see of the Beretta APX show finger grooves, so I guess they're done.
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Old 10-20-2015, 06:51 AM
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What color does it have to be??
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Old 10-20-2015, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn mccarver View Post
Nor have most of us, and we are lucky to be able to choose what we want.

That said, I am very concerned that those who protect us have the right equipment for the job because they are the ones putting their lives on the line.

The FBI may not get in many shootouts - one is too many, but the local LEOs and agencies who tend to follow the FBI do get into many dangerous shootouts against all sorts of bad people. I want all of our LEO people, federal, state, local, whether in uniform or plain clothes, to have good equipment so they have a better chance of going home to their wives and children at night.

In addition, the choice of FBI pistols is also worthy of discussion because whoever gets the contract will doubtless sell many times the number of pistols to other LEOs and agencies, not to mention the private sector, as are sold to the FBI. Let us hope S&W can put a big win in its column with the FBI contract.
I hope that, when the rfp for the holster is issued, that you post it amongst the holster threads. Though it's mighty unlikely I would ever be in a position to be a bidder, like you I enjoy working things out from documents. And I've actually a good track record in coming up with the winning design including for the FBI. But then so much has gone beyond even Kydex and into moulded plastic holsters that I'd expect it to be only a fun exercise for me :-)

P.S. By the way, rfps are often written around an existing product, even if it's only an approved prototype ;-) New players may not actually have a chance; I.e., the winner may have already been chosen. In my experience.
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Old 10-20-2015, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donn View Post
It is curious the Feds would circle back to the 9mm after, as some others have pointed out, the 9 was singled out as the big reason things went the way they, (sadly), did in Miami. That said, I'm a little baffled about the interest, bordering on obsession in some cases, as to what various local, state and federal types carry. I've never based a personal purchase decision on what the Feds or LEOs are issued.
Agencies do it because of the economy of scale more than anything else. Big contracts make for cheaper bulk purchases by agencies.
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Old 10-20-2015, 09:20 AM
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rednichols,
Also based on experience I couldn't agree with you more. Despite volumes of government contracting regulations it is still possible, perhaps inevitable, that the players on both sides game the system. It infuriates me. I wait with baited breath for the FBI's selection but I deem it a foregone conclusion that the FBI with select Glock to manufacture its new 9mm pistol. It embarrasses me to admit that.
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Old 10-20-2015, 09:38 AM
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[QUOTE=Donn;138760448, I'm a little baffled about the interest, bordering on obsession in some cases, as to what various local, state and federal types carry. I've never based a personal purchase decision on what the Feds or LEOs are issued.[/QUOTE]

Me also. They change guns and bullets more than I change clothes. Larry
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Old 10-20-2015, 01:33 PM
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What color does it have to be??
Tactical...................
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Old 10-20-2015, 08:20 PM
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I won't buy one or any striker-fired gun. I think it's a shame the Bureau makes agents carry the issued pistol models even if they buy their own.

They used to have more choice.
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Old 10-20-2015, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmc8163 View Post
Shawn, that you for taking the time and making the effort to analyze the new RFP. That has saved the rest of us a serious amount of time. However, I take serious issue with your implication in the first post that S&W was not at fault in the demise of the FBI 1076. I have spent years researching the saga of the FBI 1076 and have found that S&W shares a sizable portion of the responsibility for the failure of the pistol. As received by the FBI the pistols could easily be placed in two categories. They were either 100% and terrific reliable handguns or quite simply they were junk suffering multiple failures during the course of firing 2,500 rounds during New Agents Training. And the ratio was roughly 50/50. For example, S&W modified the barrel feed ramp to remedy the failure to feed problem; changed the heat treating protocol to remedy the broken extractor problem; modified the ejector to reduce breakage; redesigned and strengthened the trigger play spring to preclude breakage; and changed the magazine follower (yellow) material to reduce cracks (white). There were other problems as well including he unconscionable delay in addressing the FBI's concerns about the pistol. That failure to take prompt and effective action resulted in, among other things, the street Agent's loss of confidence in the weapon. S&W's failure to take the FBI's executive management seriously could only be described as suicidal. The FBI was by no means blameless. Actions by several FBI employees were illogical, irrational and often just plain ignorant. But it is a mistake to assign all the blame for the demise of the FBI 1076 to the Bureau. Based on the loss of confidence issue alone the FBI had no choice but to return the pistols to S&W under the contract's warranty clause.
Thank you for taking the time to give good, detailed information on the unfortunate saga of the 1076. I certainly appreciate the fact that you took the time to make such a well reasoned response in such a fair way, giving both sides. It is always a pleasure to read a post which is made with facts, even if it takes issue with one of mine! Thanks again.
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Old 10-21-2015, 08:20 PM
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:03 PM
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Actually the Miami/Dade Shootout was an ammunition failure. The FBI made specific requirements of the ammo they wanted, the ammo performed exactly as required and didn't do the job.
Everyone always wants whatever the FBI demands and the FBI has a terrible record of success in gunfights.
A good friend of mine is a retired FBI agent and the ammo was the smallest error of the shootout. One agent had his gun stuck under his leg and when the cars crashed he lost it under the seat and never found it during the shootout. The shotguns were in the trunk and difficult to get to. Those who were using revolvers were mostly shooting 38, although they were .357 revolvers and could have been using .357. Several of the agents weren't wearing body armor (or at least not secured. I believe Agent Grogan did not have his strapped on, just thrown over his torso). And 9MM ammo has sure Come a long way since 1988.

Not speaking ill of the agents involved. They did the best they could under the rules they had at the time, but to blame the outcome on the 9MM ammo that only half of them were carrying, with the other half shooting 38 special ammo, at least one of whom only had a 5 shot j frame, is a bit of a stretch. Not gonna win a gunfight carrying revolvers when the bad guys have carbines and shotguns, and nothing to lose in using them.

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Old 10-21-2015, 11:43 PM
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A good friend of mine is a retired FBI agent and the ammo was the smallest error of the shootout. One agent had his gun stuck under his leg and when the cars crashed he lost it under the seat and never found it during the shootout. The shotguns were in the trunk and difficult to get to. Those who were using revolvers were mostly shooting 38, although they were .357 revolvers and could have been using .357. Several of the agents weren't wearing body armor (or at least not secured. I believe Agent Grogan did not have his strapped on, just thrown over his torso). And 9MM ammo has sure Come a long way since 1988.

Not speaking ill of the agents involved. They did the best they could under the rules they had at the time, but to blame the outcome on the 9MM ammo that only half of them were carrying, with the other half shooting 38 special ammo, at least one of whom only had a 5 shot j frame, is a bit of a stretch. Not gonna win a gunfight carrying revolvers when the bad guys have carbines and shotguns, and nothing to lose in using them.
The standard issue revolver ammunition at the time, was the Remington 158gr LSWCHP +P round. .357 Magnum ammunition had to be approved for agents to use it.

The tactics used by the FBI for a felony stop left a lot to be desired, and it's one reason why things headed south so quickly. The agents improvised the entire stop, and it gave the two BG's an opportunity to start the shooting.

It's also clear that the FBI wasn't expecting a shootout that morning. They were conducting "rolling stakeouts" on information that the two BG's may rob one of the local banks. That split the FBI teams.

Ammunition was a factor, in that the 9mm ammo used was the 1st generation Winchester 115gr Silver Tip. The Silver Tip had a reputation for being under-powered. The +P ammo fired out of either a J frame S&W, or the Model 13, will not perform to its potential because the revolver barrel is a bit short to get maximum velocity for expansion.
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Old 10-22-2015, 07:19 AM
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The standard issue revolver ammunition at the time, was the Remington 158gr LSWCHP +P round. .357 Magnum ammunition had to be approved for agents to use it.

The tactics used by the FBI for a felony stop left a lot to be desired, and it's one reason why things headed south so quickly. The agents improvised the entire stop, and it gave the two BG's an opportunity to start the shooting.

It's also clear that the FBI wasn't expecting a shootout that morning. They were conducting "rolling stakeouts" on information that the two BG's may rob one of the local banks. That split the FBI teams.

Ammunition was a factor, in that the 9mm ammo used was the 1st generation Winchester 115gr Silver Tip. The Silver Tip had a reputation for being under-powered. The +P ammo fired out of either a J frame S&W, or the Model 13, will not perform to its potential because the revolver barrel is a bit short to get maximum velocity for expansion.
Right. But getting approval for 357 was not a problem. But none of them chose to get authorized to carry them. And I know the car stop wasn't textbook. They improvised and it went south. Just saying that pointing the finger at the 9MM ammo as the reason for the disastrous results is foolish.
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Old 10-22-2015, 07:46 AM
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Back to the topic...

The new FBI guns are to be very picky as to specific features, and one of those features is DAO, the default only that can be accepted due to the (no) safety or decocker requirements.

Now look at it another way and realize that the bad guys have absolutely no limitation as to their choice of weapon whether in caliber or type of action or safety.

So, it seems to me that the FBI is mandating that their agents be outgunned by pretty much any bad guy who has a pistol that can be fired more accurately (single action), might have better sights, and of larger or more "efficient" (read larger or very high velocity) ammunition types.

Sounds like a typical government cluster to me.
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Old 10-22-2015, 08:20 AM
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rednichols,
Also based on experience I couldn't agree with you more. Despite volumes of government contracting regulations it is still possible, perhaps inevitable, that the players on both sides game the system. It infuriates me. I wait with baited breath for the FBI's selection but I deem it a foregone conclusion that the FBI with select Glock to manufacture its new 9mm pistol...
My guess too. We'll see.
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Old 10-22-2015, 09:02 AM
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I'm not surprised that the FBI is going back to the 9mm.

As to the Miami shootout disaster: we saw a similar 'blame the equipment' mentality after a LE disaster during the aftermath of the Munich Olympic Games terrorist attacks. After the German police failed to rescue the hostages, there was a large overhaul of their pistols, which were at the time, 7,65mm pocket type pistols. The Germans demanded a 9mm, an 8 shot gun, no thumb safety. The HK P7, Walther P5, and Sig P6 were the resultant pistols.

With the FBI shootout, an autopsy showed that one of the agent's 9mm Silvertips had entered the arm and chest cavity of one of the killers (Matiz?) early in the gunfight, but it had stopped just short of the heart. The killer went on to commit more carnage.

They made the 10mm, then found quickly that most agents could not handle this 'magnum' like auto loader. Then they made it the 10mm 'lite', then finally the .40 S&W round. The .40 S&W still has a reputation of being a snappy handful for non-gun enthusiasts (which are a great many LEO's).

Physics is physics. Either you can have a pistol that everyone can shoot well and give up a little in the muzzle energy department, or you can go up in muzzle energy and have a gun that is harder to shoot well. There's a reason the .38 spl. was such a popular LE round for so long, despite its reputation as an impotent fight stopper with early round nose rounds. It was easy to shoot for people who didn't like to practice a whole lot, and the guns were easy to carry all day.

9mm with proper loads is a good fight stopper. It is cheap for practice, and is light in recoil. It doesn't beat up the pistols like 40 or .357 sig. Makes sense
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Old 10-22-2015, 09:16 AM
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I'm betting they already have their eye on one gun. From the sound of it, that gun is either a Sig p320 or M&P. I have only known one FBI agent and he loved his Glock so I am surprised about the no finger grooves to knock them out.
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Old 10-22-2015, 09:17 AM
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Well, the FBI, along with the Military, do their selecting in very similar ways. Always remember, they have to get a platform that is very easy to train to a very large number of end-users. That's going to mean;

1. No extra levers/buttons performing redundant/superfluous functions,

2. No controls of the gun that move in non-traditional directions/methods,

3. No fire control systems that have multiple modes of operation (DA/Sa).

In my experience, military and civilian occupations that require the use of a firearm, by-and-large, do not provide enough regular training for their personnel to get really (I mean intimately) familiar with their issued weapon. Remember, the weapon is only going to work as well as the dummy that it was issued to!
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Old 10-22-2015, 09:22 AM
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I'm betting they already have their eye on one gun. From the sound of it, that gun is either a Sig p320 or M&P. I have only known one FBI agent and he loved his Glock so I am surprised about the no finger grooves to knock them out.
I find this odd, as well. I've put thousands of rounds through Glocks over the years, and even with small hands, they don't bother me at all.
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Old 10-22-2015, 09:46 AM
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I'm betting they already have their eye on one gun. From the sound of it, that gun is either a Sig p320 or M&P. I have only known one FBI agent and he loved his Glock so I am surprised about the no finger grooves to knock them out.
Many with "atypical" fingers find that finger grooves create a problem with the hand hold. If your fingers don't fall naturally with the grooves, then you won't be very comfortable with the pistol.

PS - That's one of the reasons I don't like Glocks; that and the fact that my large palm, short finger stature doesn't play nice with double stack guns.
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Old 10-22-2015, 05:01 PM
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And so consider the possibility that the "no finger stalls" on the grip has been inserted to 'block the Glock'. An influential competitor can, and has, have this power over the process. At Bianchi we were successful, for example, in having many a police holster spec written to specify the exact Craftool brand basket pattern, knowing that our competitors such as Bucheimer used different ones.
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Old 10-22-2015, 05:29 PM
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Wow, a lot of bad info in an otherwise good thread.

As to the issue of the number of FBI gunfights and a supposed poor track record - I've been an agent for 24 years, and a firearms instructor for most of that time. The Bureau averages about 10 shooting incidents a year - admittedly not a lot for 14000 agents, that's still a couple of hundred in my time. I'm not aware of any that we "lost". We've had agents killed, but good guys are going to pay the price sometimes. All law enforcement agencies lose guys, but it doesn't mean they lose gunfights. I do know we've killed a hell of lot more of them than they have of us.

4/11/86 has been beaten to death on this and every other forum on the internet. I came in five years after it happened, and even then there were lots of lessons learned still being worked out and applied. To the general public (and especially the gun world) the whole thing was blamed on one 9mm Silvertip launched by Jerry Dove. Inside the Bureau there was massive soul searching and changes in tactics, training, and equipment. Its been almost 30 years, and we've arrested a lot of bad guys since then, without any similar occurrences. That would have played out a lot differently today - a SWAT or HRT roll most likely - due to the sacrifices made and lessons learned that dark day.

The "agents couldn't handle the mighty 10mm" thing has somehow gained internet credence. I've said it here before - no "full-power" 10mm ammo was ever issued to agents. The ammo gurus started with the 10mm cartridge and a ton of ballistic gel, then boosted the velocity of the 180 grain bullet until it did what they wanted. Then they stopped and said Hey, Federal - make us a few million of these.

The original idea was to have a semi-auto version of the .38/357 combo. Regular 10mm for everyday use, with the option to go to more powerful rounds should the need arise. The 1076 came and went and that angle was never developed. The .40 came about, and we adopted it.

Now the ammo gurus say the 9mm will do whatever the .40 will, and its cheaper. So for the next go 'round we'll get 9mms.

Guys who have .40s will keep .40s, unless they want to switch. New guys will get 9mms. As .40s retire or break, they'll be replaced by 9mms.

Doesn't matter to me, my Sig is grandfathered in, and I'll reach my Bureau expiration date before they drop it.

As an agent, I appreciate all the interest generated by our guns. But the Bureau doesn't issue guns or ammo to other agencies, so everyone is still free to buy whatever guns and ammunition they want to use.

We still have 10mms, by the way. They hold 30 rounds and shoot full auto.
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Old 10-22-2015, 06:03 PM
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We still have 10mms, by the way. They hold 30 rounds and shoot full auto.
I need to get a 2 shot burst FCG for this one



The new ammo is Federal 190JHPs that leave the MP5/10 at over 1200FPS. 30 rounds can be sent down range in just over 2 seconds

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Old 10-22-2015, 06:20 PM
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I recall the exacting and daunting specifications demanded by the FBI HRT teams when they selected Model 1911s perhaps 20 years ago. Yet, whatever manufacturer lands the FBI contract wins free advertising and prestige that can assure them continued success.
So, despite seemingly impossible-to-meet specifications, all the big boys are gonna try.
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Old 10-22-2015, 06:56 PM
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Requirement number one - the gun goes "bang" every time.

All other requirements - inconsequential fluff.
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Old 10-22-2015, 07:32 PM
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Wow, a lot of bad info in an otherwise good thread.

As to the issue of the number of FBI gunfights and a supposed poor track record - I've been an agent for 24 years, and a firearms instructor for most of that time. The Bureau averages about 10 shooting incidents a year - admittedly not a lot for 14000 agents, that's still a couple of hundred in my time. I'm not aware of any that we "lost". We've had agents killed, but good guys are going to pay the price sometimes. All law enforcement agencies lose guys, but it doesn't mean they lose gunfights. I do know we've killed a hell of lot more of them than they have of us.

4/11/86 has been beaten to death on this and every other forum on the internet. I came in five years after it happened, and even then there were lots of lessons learned still being worked out and applied. To the general public (and especially the gun world) the whole thing was blamed on one 9mm Silvertip launched by Jerry Dove. Inside the Bureau there was massive soul searching and changes in tactics, training, and equipment. Its been almost 30 years, and we've arrested a lot of bad guys since then, without any similar occurrences. That would have played out a lot differently today - a SWAT or HRT roll most likely - due to the sacrifices made and lessons learned that dark day.

The "agents couldn't handle the mighty 10mm" thing has somehow gained internet credence. I've said it here before - no "full-power" 10mm ammo was ever issued to agents. The ammo gurus started with the 10mm cartridge and a ton of ballistic gel, then boosted the velocity of the 180 grain bullet until it did what they wanted. Then they stopped and said Hey, Federal - make us a few million of these.

The original idea was to have a semi-auto version of the .38/357 combo. Regular 10mm for everyday use, with the option to go to more powerful rounds should the need arise. The 1076 came and went and that angle was never developed. The .40 came about, and we adopted it.

Now the ammo gurus say the 9mm will do whatever the .40 will, and its cheaper. So for the next go 'round we'll get 9mms.

Guys who have .40s will keep .40s, unless they want to switch. New guys will get 9mms. As .40s retire or break, they'll be replaced by 9mms.

Doesn't matter to me, my Sig is grandfathered in, and I'll reach my Bureau expiration date before they drop it.

As an agent, I appreciate all the interest generated by our guns. But the Bureau doesn't issue guns or ammo to other agencies, so everyone is still free to buy whatever guns and ammunition they want to use.

We still have 10mms, by the way. They hold 30 rounds and shoot full auto.
I was hoping you'd jump into this thread. Glad to see a real agent chiming in. A bullet does what a bullrt does. Depending on where it hits, who it hits, and how much clothing it travels through, the results are gonna be different.

I have never denigrated the agents involved in that shootout in 1986. They faced off against more heavily armed and desperate perps. They did not back down and fought to the end. Yeah, some agents made some mistakes, but they were human and it doesn't take away from their bravery. In the end, the more heavily armed bad guys were DOA, and it was the FBI who put them down.

There's no magic bullet. A high quality 9MM is probably a better choice. More rounds and less snappy is always better. Never liked shooting the .40.

As for keeping your SIG, congrats on that. My retired FBI friend hung onto his 228 for as long as he could. They finally wrestled it away and made him get the Glock. He told me yesterday that 228 was his favorite gun ever and he wants another, but not the new M11A1 with the rail. He wants a real 228.
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Old 10-22-2015, 07:45 PM
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sigp220.45, which 9mm pistols do they now issue or allowed to be carried?
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Old 10-22-2015, 09:24 PM
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kbm - My Sig 220 is a POW, and somehow keeps getting grandfathered in. All of the Bu issued Sig are long gone. There's one other guy in DN HQC who still has a Sig - his is a POW 229.

Philly Patriot - some personally owned Sigs 9mms are still around and grandfathered in. Glock 26s and 19s can be purchased and carried. I've heard of agents being issued 9s under special circumstances - I knew a guy who had a Bu issued Glock 19 because he had hand surgery and was having a hard time qualifying with his issued 23.
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Old 10-22-2015, 09:32 PM
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Sigp220.45, bless you for setting the record straight. I was already drafting a response to the inaccurate nonsense when I reached yours. Saved me a lot of time. It seems the myths will never die. Thank you, D
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Old 10-22-2015, 09:51 PM
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I should address the issue of the restrictions on Agents carrying personally owned weapons. In the "olden" days Agents could carry a wide variety of POWs as long as they were on the Bureau approved POW list. Several different manufacturers were included. Then, as budget austerity became a priority, the FBI's Gun Vault convinced Bureau executives that it was too expensive to maintain parts inventories for so many different weapons. Further it required gunsmiths with varied backgrounds, training and expertise. To consolidate the Bureau first decided to call in and destroy all Bureau Colt firearms (including Thompsons) in the 80's. Colt's were eliminate from the POW list and Colt gunsmith's services were no longer required. The POW list was whittled down to nothing. Some weapons such as sigp220.45's 220 are grandfathered. Those are becoming rarer every day. The POW list today as I understand it is limited to Glocks. My position is that the Bureau's current POW policy is all about the dollars and liability and has nothing to do with the quality of firearms or the needs or desires of the agents.

BTW, approval to use .357 Mag. in your .357 Mag. Revolver, Bureau issue or POW, could be granted only by your field offices Special Agent in Charge. None of my SAC's would do so. Too much liability and if the Bureau wanted you to carry .357 Mag in your revolvers FBIHQ would have approved it. I'd like to know what SAC('s) supposedly routinely approved such carry? Don't get me wrong, many of us carried the .357 Silvertip it just wasn't approved. I carried it in my Model 19 for nine years.
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Old 10-22-2015, 10:00 PM
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My solution: bring back the 547, maybe even in stainless.
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Old 10-22-2015, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by dmc8163 View Post
I should address the issue of the restrictions on Agents carrying personally owned weapons. In the "olden" days Agents could carry a wide variety of POWs as long as they were on the Bureau approved POW list. Several different manufacturers were included. Then, as budget austerity became a priority, the FBI's Gun Vault convinced Bureau executives that it was too expensive to maintain parts inventories for so many different weapons. Further it required gunsmiths with varied backgrounds, training and expertise. To consolidate the Bureau first decided to call in and destroy all Bureau Colt firearms (including Thompsons) in the 80's. Colt's were eliminate from the POW list and Colt gunsmith's services were no longer required. The POW list was whittled down to nothing. Some weapons such as sigp220.45's 220 are grandfathered. Those are becoming rarer every day. The POW list today as I understand it is limited to Glocks. My position is that the Bureau's current POW policy is all about the dollars and liability and has nothing to do with the quality of firearms or the needs or desires of the agents.

BTW, approval to use .357 Mag. in your .357 Mag. Revolver, Bureau issue or POW, could be granted only by your field offices Special Agent in Charge. None of my SAC's would do so. Too much liability and if the Bureau wanted you to carry .357 Mag in your revolvers FBIHQ would have approved it. I'd like to know what SAC('s) supposedly routinely approved such carry? Don't get me wrong, many of us carried the .357 Silvertip it just wasn't approved. I carried it in my Model 19 for nine years.
I had an American Rifleman with a whole story about the guns of the FBI. Said agents could carry 357 if they wished. Might have been BS, I don't know.

But my friend was a NY State Trooper before becoming an agent, and he was used to 357, so that's what he carried as an agent. He worked in Virginia, Boston, and NY in his career. I never asked him if he carried 357 in all states. Just know he didn't trust the .38 when the 357 was around. He came into the bureau in 1983. By 1988 or so his revolvers were gone. He never personally carried a 1076 but tells me they were very problematic and agents hated them. He got the 228 and fell in love until they took it from him and gave him the Glock.

I don't know if he was officially approved for it, I just know he carried 357. He told me he used to carry 4 rounds of .38 followed by 2 rounds of .357 right before the change to semi autos. Said he liked having a few .357 rounds behind the .38 in case those didn't do the trick. He still has his Model 60 that he used to wear on his ankle. .38 Special, of course. He said the .38 J frame was OK for backup, but never considered it for primary duty carry. He dearly misses his issued Model 13. The one he trained with as a new agent. He has 2 Model 27 FBI commeratives the Bureau sold to agents. Consecutive serial numbers and all. Never even cracked open the cylinders. He's keeping them for his 2 kids. I also know he kept a couple of speed loaders loaded with the 357 Silvertips in his car.

Last edited by kbm6893; 10-22-2015 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 10-22-2015, 11:00 PM
Rick H. Rick H. is offline
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Interesting thread. I started in law enforcement in 1978. The Miami shooting was one of several that rocked law enforcement to the core in that era. Not to throw rocks because almost every LEO shooting situation has mistakes made, but this single shooting event made many stand up and do some serious soul searching. If you haven't read a detailed, unbiased account of the Miami shooting you should. It was a situation that never should have gone down the way it did. Enough said as I am retired and don't want to rattle old cages.

The entire selection process that is being used by the FBI is pretty typical of what many large departments do. I have never liked setting certain ground rules that almost immediately begin excluding certain weapons. It gives the impression of being unfair to one or another firearm manufacturer while favoring others. Let them all submit examples and give them all a fair shake down, then no one can say they didn't get a fair trial.

What I see taking place in this selection process is trying to make a sidearm "stupid-proof" and one gun fits all. It's never gonna happen and if any department should understand that fact the FBI should. No one gun fits everyone regardless of interchangeable back straps or frame sizes. And funny as it may sound, I have never had to rack the slide on any semi-automatic I ever carried by pushing the rear sight against something. Actually, I don't believe I have ever heard of anyone doing that except in training because someone thought it was a good idea. Must be the same person(s) that thought it was a good idea to only teach new officers to only shoot with two hands, when in reality a great number of LEO's only use one hand when involved in a shooting situation. I fought a major battle with my old department trying to spend much more time shooting one handed which they finally woke up to one day. I haven't read any real stats lately, but something like 20% to 30% of the officers involved in shootings only use one hand.

Now to the 9mm round. If you have been around for any length of time you have to know that the 9mm round has gone through some serious development and re-development. Todays 9mm round is not your fathers 9mm round. Prior to my retirement we carried 3 different versions of 9mm R****s and then switched to Glock .40's when our R****s started experiencing cracked frames. R**** blamed the cracked frames on the ammo we were using which was a 115 grain +P+ load made by Winchester and later on we used a 127 grain +P+ also made by Winchester. Interestingly enough, R**** initially approved the loads we carried in their pistols. By the way, chrono results were dramatic with these loads and approached .357 velocities.

When we went to Glocks we also switched caliber to .40 S&W. Immediately we noticed a decline in shooting scores and many officers complained of the recoil. When we changed to Glocks we gave each officer the choice of a full size pistol or compact. Looking back on that decision it was a huge mistake as everyone in uniform should have been issued a full sized pistol which would have eliminated some of our problems and complaints. I also think it was a big mistake to force every officer to switch to the .40 S&W. They should have been given a choice based on their test firing of the two calibers as to which one they preferred. Many would have stayed with the 9mm and would have been much better off and happier. Again, no one size fits all. Two types of ammunition to keep in stock is no big deal and forget about giving ammunition to some one who runs out. The object is to have working pistols that officers can rely on and can hit their targets with.

So in the end a new FBI sidearm will be picked and yes there will be a few departments that will opt for the same firearm, but this doesn't happen as much as it once did. Departments are discovering they really can make their own choices based on their needs and not on what the FBI claims is best for them. I wish the FBI and the agents forced to carry these new sidearms well.

Rick H.
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Old 10-23-2015, 12:03 AM
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FBI's stated rationale (greatly simplified) for the 9mm:

Higher magazine capacity.
Better accuracy, even during rapid fire, vs. the .40 S&W and .45 ACP.
Bullet placement and adequate penetration to reach vital areas trump everything else, regardless of cartridge.
Modern 9mm bullet designs will duplicate the terminal performance of bullets from the .40 S&W or .45 ACP in tissue.
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Old 10-23-2015, 05:33 AM
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FBI's stated rationale (greatly simplified) for the 9mm:

Higher magazine capacity.
Better accuracy, even during rapid fire, vs. the .40 S&W and .45 ACP.
Bullet placement and adequate penetration to reach vital areas trump everything else, regardless of cartridge.
Modern 9mm bullet designs will duplicate the terminal performance of bullets from the .40 S&W or .45 ACP in tissue.
Makes perfect sense to me. The 9MM of today is no Silvertip from 1986.

Regarding the 1986 shootout, that shootout became standard training video for probable every academy in the country. I remember watching it as a recruit. So many other "bad luck" things happened to the agents, that them coming out on top was even more testament to their bravery. One agent lost his gun before the fight began. Dove's gun was hit by a bullet so it was out of commission. I seem to remember Grogan losing his glasses, and he was a great shot, so his ability to put them where it counted was compromised.

But in spite of it all, the bad guys were DOA and the good guys won. Yeah, Grogan and Dove gave their lives, but sometimes cops die doing their job. It's a risk we all accept.
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