Thank you so much for the welcome and info...
ok plz forgive me in advance S&W people only
I also have a Winchester model 70 9mm
if were to sell these what's the best auction or drive to Los Vegas and see Rick @ pawn stars lol.m70 9mm.jpg

Well that Model 70 is a rare one, is it a rifle or a carbine? RIA sold a carbine recently not sure what it went for but the estimate was $3,500 - 5,000.

Winchester Model 70 Bolt Action Carbine in 9mm

A Model 70 in 9x57mm Mauser would be a very unusual find. Several U. S. - made rifles from the pre-WWII period, including the Model 70's predecessor, the Model 54, were available chambered in 9x57mm Mauser, and I believe a few of the earlier Model 70s also were. These were made mainly for sale on the European market, and probably very few were sold on the U. S. market. And few of those which went to Europe in the pre-war years survived the war intact. If you have one, it would definitely require a full and complete authentication as being factory-original. Depending upon its condition and originality, it could bring some serious bucks, and would best be sold by one of the better gun auction houses to get the maximum return. There are lots of Winchester Model 70 collectors with deep pockets who would jump all over it, assuming it is the real McCoy.

Thanks again... I believe it is a rifle. I was told this particular rifle had been in a picture in a hardback book...
Would any of you know of any such books showing a picture of this model?

The link to the model 70 won't come up for me but if it is like new it's worth a lot more than $3500 to $5000. I paid $10,000 for a mint 7.65 Arg. Mauser carbine a while ago and thought I was lucky to get it.

I measured it 19-21" so i guess its a carbine.

A rifle in 9mm is 24in a short rifle (carbine) is 20in.

If I remember right they also chambered either the model 54 in 7.65 argentine and the model 70 in 7mm mauser. So that would indeed get a true model 70 collector's heart rate up a bit. Frank

There were numerous calibers in which the Model 70 was chambered in small quantities. Of course, the majority were chambered in .30-'06 and .270 Winchester, so most any other caliber will command a premium price of varying magnitude. Additionally, back in the day, Winchester could be persuaded to make special chamberings by customer request and at extra cost.

As in the case of many scarce guns, one must be very aware of the existence of forgeries or non-originality issues. Many Model 70s are found with replacement factory barrels, and it may require some detective work to ensure that a rifle in an unusual caliber is factory-original. I have four pre-war Model 70s (none in unusual calibers), but sadly none of them is in 100% factory original condition as a result of later minor modifications made by owners. All of mine are valuable, but not nearly as valuable as if they were in 100% factory-original condition.

i just looked up a fairly complete history about the Model 70 appearing in the 1974 edition of Gun Digest. In it is a very comprehensive table of styles, calibers, barrel lengths, and production dates. The Model 70 in 9x57mm Mauser is shown as being produced only in 1937, and only in the 24" barrel rifle version. Anything other than that would make its originality suspect, if not likely. A 1937 serial number would be probably no greater than 11573. Unfortunately, the article does not provide the number of Model 70s in that caliber produced.

I believe my m70 was made in 1941, sn# 420xx... I remember being told this 9mm was the most prized gun in a collection of 100 model 70's and was worth 3x what any other rifle/carbine in that colletion was worth and one of the things that made this 9mm so unique was it had it's picture in a hardback book showing it sn# and all(early 80's hardback) Help find Book ... yall got too much good info... someone knows

I'm kind of curious and I admit it's none of my business but I would like to know why the barrel length can't be measured to within at least 1/16. Larry

With that SN, and if it has a barrel shorter than 24", I have a very strong feeling that yours is not factory original in 9X57mm, and may not have nearly as much value as you expect. Some picture in some book will not change the facts. You might want to provide a few good pictures showing all significant details of the rifle especially all barrel stampings (including those under the stock - early Model 70s had a date stamp on the bottom of the barrel) and also the top of the receiver (early Model 70s did not have threaded holes for scope mounting on the rear receiver bridge). Someone here with much more knowledge of exotic early Model 70s than I may be able to shed more light on exactly what it is that you have.

9 Mauser....cool. 9mm would be even cooler for pest control and $200 tax stamp muffler on the muzzle end. Like a top end Destroyer carbine.

The book that shows a picture of a 9x57 is Madis's Book on Winchesters. Back when I collected Model 70's, I heard of one selling at the Las Vegas collectors show for $35000 and that was around '75. But it may have been just a rumor. I had a 7x57 that was original and I got 2 grand for it about the same time. Now it would be worth 4 times that.

I have zero expertise in model 70 rifles. But, I am curious. The barrel marking is 9 M/M. Does that mean it is a 9mm pistol cartridge or is it the 9x57? Did they make the model 70 in pistol calibers?

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Tony

You mean those little marks between the numbers mean something

I don't know but a model 70 in 9 mm seems to be a waste of a good rifle.

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John

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×57mm_Mauser

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Model 54 barrels are known to have been used to make early model 70's. Madis's book indicates that there were a very few rifles made in 9 X57 and in 7.65 Argentine. I have never seen either but have heard as I mentioned before rumors of a 9x57 sold in Vegas. The pre-64 model 70 was one of the most phony'd rifles in history. The most notable was the use of 300 H&H barrels to phony up 300 Win Mags. Also the making of Carbines with 20" barrels which had significant increased value over their longer breathren. In both of those cases the front sight ramp is the major indicator. Carbines will always have milled on barrel front sight ramps integral with the barrel and 300 Win Mags being a 1963 only offering will not. Also barrel markings are different for both the 30 magnums. If someone came across a model 54 barrel, they could phoney up a model 70 that might fool an expert. If the records still exist, they are probably at the museum in Cody, Wyoming. I don't think it would be hard to find a pre-war receiver with proof marks that would line up with a model 54 barrel. That's another clue, proof marks on barrel and receiver are almost never out of line, but that's not a guarrantee. People who deal with guns in such rarified high values are pretty careful. Many seek authentication from experts. One indicator of a phoney is that the experts of note are usually NOT invited to see it.

You can bet that any serious Model 70 collector would subject it to a very intensive and thorough anal exam before he would even consider making an offer. I doubt this one would pass - I can't know that for sure, but I don't see anything from the information that has been provided to make me confident in its authenticity and originality. Could be something to the possibility of the transplant of a Model 54 barrel to a later Model 70 action, as the barrels are pretty much identical, and it is known that there were some Model 54s chambered in 9x57mm. The date stamp on the barrel should tell a lot, along with the proof stamp alignment. A Model 54 barrel in 9x57mm on a 1941 action does not automatically make it a non-factory original assembly, as it is possible that the factory had an old Model 54 barrel in the parts bin at the same time someone wanted and ordered a Model 70 in 9x57mm - but that would have to be definitely verified. Just how, I do not know.

For the OP - barrel length is defined as the distance between the bolt face to the muzzle. Close the action, stick a cleaning rod down the barrel until it stops, mark it at the muzzle, and measure the rod from tip to the mark.

thank you for finding the book, can anyone post the picture of it or tell if it shows the sn#... I was told it had been authenticated way back. As for the barrel length I like guns but I have no idea where to measure to, but under the sn# is a hole its exactly 20" to there.

See #20 above regarding barrel length measurement. Also, have you looked at the date stamp on the bottom of the barrel? If you do have, as it appears, a 20" barrel, it very likely did not leave Winchester that way and its value will plummet. Unless the picture in the Madis book is of your Model 70, and can be positively established as such, then it has no bearing on your rifle.

This doesn't surprise me. A friend has a 1955 in 300 H&H. I'm going by memory, but the roll mark is something like "30 Cal Magnum." No mention of H&H, but at that time I think the only other 30 caliber magnum was the .308 Norma, and Winchester may not have offered it.

Ok...I can't see as good as i used to. I noticed but could barely read (forgive my igorance) on top of the barrel its says "WILLIAMS" and 2 small stamps of somthing can't see on the side. I took more pictures. Did not see anything on the bottom. I understand it could phony. My only thing is what i know is... It did come from a collection of atleast 100 model 70's and it was the most valuable in the collection, that much I think I know. I was told it was authenticated by an expert who said it was 1 of 2 he knew of and the only one he had seen...and published it in some hardback book. Again i know all that means nothing without proof...So next question where do I take it?[ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH]whole.jpg[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

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To clarify I meant who is the best expert to take it too.

The "Williams" refers to a sight company. The small piece of metal fills in the dovetail in which the original rear sight fit. Instead this one has a receiver sight, perhaps made by...Williams?

It appears to have a carbine-length barrel. Probably the only way you will find out if it is factory original is to have an experienced collector/dealer examine it, and perhaps provide an appraisal. If you can attend, the upcoming Tulsa Arms Show (November 14) would probably find you someone expert in the Winchester arena.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Thank you, does the side stamp in the last picture mean anything?

Post #6 gives the barrel length as 19-21". I'm wondering if even the big marks mean anything. Larry

One very important item is to determine if the front sight is integral with the barrel or if it seems to have been attached. If it is in fact a Model 54 carbine length barrel, the sight will be an integral part of the barrel. If not, the barrel has been cut back from 24". Nothing I have seen indicates that Model 54 barrels in 20" length were ever chambered in 9x57mm, but that may not be the absolute truth. Strange that there is no date stamp (2 digits) on the underside of the barrel, as supposedly all of the pre-WWII guns had one. By the way, your SN indicates 1942 production. Not very many civilian guns were made between 1942-45, but a few were.

Out of concern for you losing sleep while trying to authenticate your Model 70, i'll offer to trade you a Savage Model 340V chambered in the ultra desireable (but discontinued) 225 Winchester. The Burris scope is kind of foggy and the finish on the stock is about 35% with about 10% of the original blue on the barrel and action. I'll even pay the shipping both ways. My youngest boy killed his first deer with that rifle. I had never seen anyone shoot a deer while it was nursing before. That doe he was on jumped ten feet straight up. I wish we had video cameras back then.
This Savage 340 V must be California ok due to its main safety feature (no ammo).

^^^ this. A factory 70 in 9mm will bring more than $5k easy.

I've always been intrigued by the very small handful of heavy-barreled target guns they mfg'd in .375 myself.

Front sight definitely look as it is part of the barrel except for the circle part that slides on to it. No date on bottom unless its under the wood.

These rare caliber and configuration M70s are very often faked, upgraded or redone guns. Not saying this one is,,but it's just a fact.
There's a lot of money involved in them,,so the fakefactorys have been in full production for many years.

The integral ramp front sight is one of the first things to look for as stated and a dead give away.
But there was an after-market run of M70 rifle and carbine length bbls done in the 90's to factory specs including roll-stamp markings that are just dead on original Winchester look alikes.
One slip-up they may have made was on the (carbine?) bbls was to use the bbl address marking that was a bit later than the pre-war or War-time era they ended up serial numbering some of their creations.

They also made stocks including SuperGrade and hardware to go with them.

The proof stamps markings were originally hand stamped and done into the completed blued surface. The faked gun if done 'correctly', will have them done this way as well.
If viewed with a magnifier, you should be able to see the stamping has slightly disturbed the blued surface, raised the metal a little and sometimes left a little brite steel showing,

The recv'r is much harder at the front ring than the bbl, so the bbl proof stamp is usually deep and more distinct than the rev'vr proof,,but both were done with the same punch at the same time and by hand & eye allaignment with a hammer. They may be slightly out of line.

Should be a bbl date (two digit) on the bottom of the bbl right up close to the rcvr. That's the date the bbl was made,,not the date the rifle was made. Could be years apart actually.
They did at some point start to leave that off intermitantly,,then all together. I can't remember when that all started.
Caliber marking on the bottom of the bbl was a common pre-war practice also. Small characters stamped just in front of that date marking.

On this carbine on the left side of the recv'r just ahead of the recv'r site, there could be a welded up hole looking back at you thru the blued finish. Perhaps it's just the picture and lighting. I'm just guessing.

I'd check the interior surfaces of the raceway for extra holes/plugged holes not only there, but also the top of the rear rec'vr ring. The adj sight covers it well now, but many early M70s were aftermarket drilled and tapped there for modern scope bases.
The early ones were D&T on the front ring (2) and the left rear side of the rcv'r (2).

The beauty, if you can call it that, for the fakers with these M70's is that there are no factory records.
The factory would accomodate customers demands pretty much anything they wanted. So when presented, a rifle or shotgun that seems a bit out of place by ser# or feature is quickly rationalized by that fact by the seller. 'Uncataloged special order' is often the reasoning.
The buyer should be tone deaf at that point I believe!
Just realize that some of the fakes have been around for 25+yrs already too and have taken on that honest carefully handled look that can make them even more real.

It's sure to get a microscopic going over no matter where it goes up for sale or display.

The barreled action must be removed from the wood to see the stampings on the bottom of the barrel, as previously stated. As I earlier said, any serious collector of exotic Model 70s would subject it to microscopic scrutiny prior to making an offer. And some of those guys are really dead serious and exceedingly picky. The fact that the front sight seems to be a part of the barrel does indeed remove one possible doubt as to its originality, but there are others. The previous comment about no scope mounting holes on the rear receiver bridge was also earlier mentioned by me. A very large number of earlier Model 70s are found to have the threaded holes, as the scope mounting is therefore simplified. There was no malice intended by the former owner by having a couple of threaded holes added, and in fact it was a logical step to take if someone wanted to mount a scope on his Model 70. Unfortunately, it does have a significant impact upon value. The receiver sight blocks the view of the rear bridge, but I hope that the holes are not there.

I have a model 54 action that was made for the 30-30 cartridge. I'm planning on getting it rebarreled and in doing so removed the factory bbl.Reason for the rebbarel is that the bore looks like the inside of a coal mine, and I want it for shooting castbullets. On the underside of the bbl is stamped 28 for the year 1928 in which it was made. The front sight is actually part of the barrel. The sight blade is held in place with a cross pin. Bought this in Brooklyn many years ago after reading an ad in Shotgun News for sale @ $75 each. Dealer had one of those fiber 55 gallon drums filled with 54's. The only time I saw a complete 54 in 30-30 was in Pennsylvania and his had the carbine stock. The 54's did not have their bolts set up for use with a scope. I took mine to Griffen & Howe in NYC and for the magnificent sum of $40 had a model 70 bolt handle installed. Last year I finally located a used Winchester marksman stock in nice shape that had been altered for high power shooting. May not be moving fast on this but at least I got all the parts. the stamped trigger guard poses the only stumbling block. On a regular model 70 the front guard screw goes into the recoil lug. On a 54 though it goes into the underside of the receiver. Thanks to all for the info on this particular thread. Much appreciated. Frank

The stamps on the left side of the barrel and the receiver were struck after proof firing at the factory. I have a book, at my office, that refers to the proof firing as "swallowing the blue pill" (I think) and the proof rounds were, of course, maximum loads.

Great photos of what I hope is an original It "looks" right as rain to me but, a physical examination by a known vintage firearms expert will confirm it's heritage. Good luck and keep us posted!

Thank you guys so much for helping me out...I talked with my dad who originally bought these guns in 2 collections, and like I said these were the two I was given (thought to be the most valuable of each collection) The collections were valued @ (s&w)2.3 and (m70)2.7mill as full and complete in the early 80's. So I told him what I had found out so far... holy cow ... He told me the story again... he was a little upset because he had some expert authenticate everything before he bought them... and went on about the hardback book again, which for me at this point, real or not, I want to uncover the mystery book.
I will say I would love to find the most or atleast a nationally known expert/appraiser to authenticate, near the gulf oast.

It would go like this at the Vegas pawn shop...

Tonka: "Hi, Rick. I have this scarce 9mm Model 70."
Rick: "You wanna sell, it, pawn it, or give it to me, HaHaHa!!"
Tonka: "I'd like to sell it."
Rick: "What are you looking to get?"
Tonka: "I was thinking $4,800."
Rick: "Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, I don't think so. The reason they're so scarce is nobody wanted them in that caliber. If I had it in my shop it would sit here forever because the ammo is impossible to get. Tell ya' what. I'll give you $150 for it. That's the best I could do."
Then most people (not you, Tonka) on the show would say: "Uhh..could you go... $175?"
Then Rick would relent: "OK. $175. Let's go write it up."

Haven't heard of that .225 mentioned in quite a while tex. Brings back some memories. Had a Winchester Model 70 in 225 back in early 70s. Push feed and that god awful stamped checkering. Guess trying to replace it with the .220 Swift did not work out! Mine had a sporter barrel. From what I hear too not all that many produced.

LOL, Ya honestly it would have to be worth what I was hoping it was worth for me to even consider selling it. That's why I really never pulled it out to research it. I mean really it's worth way more to me from my own history with it, but if it checked out, and someone had to have it... If I could find the book it was in it would double the value for me... I would just give it to my son tell him the story of whe his granddad got it...and hope he gets what he feels he needs or pass on the legacy... but like my dad I would want to personally have it authenticated for my son...

Are you positive the partial serial number you posted is correct?

Meaning it is not a typo.



Patrick

Why don't you write to the Winchester Museum in Cody, WY and get a factory letter?

Not sure if yours fits in the range, but it could be worth a phone call...

http://centerofthewest.org/wp-conten...er_SN-list.pdf

OP said it was sn# 420xx, and that's also what shows in the picture. The listing of Model 70 SNs indicates 1942 production. The Cody letter indicates it has no Model 70 information (warehouse records or SN dating) for a SN that low. I really do not know how the factory lettering works for Winchester guns, but I'd think a phone call to the museum should result in some information as to whether it would be even possible to get any meaningful historical information. They may also be able to identify some advanced Model 70 collectors who might be able to provide more information.

I did call but had o leave a message they said ther was no info but I will call again and try to actually speak to someone, like you said maybe some any info would be nice like was it possable to produce.

I can't see any number at all, but I am using my phone.

The reason I ask is Rule shows at least 5 different 9mm rifles in his book.
One of them is 42191.

Patrick

wow, So close...

Had me rolling on this exchange. Never seen a show where so many line up willingly to get royally screwed over at a PAWN SHOP.
Very good sir.

Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

It's the price they are willing to pay to be on TV for a couple minutes.

Sad, but thus is todays society......


Chuck

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They hold no Quarter