Two questions:
What's Better, full length rod or short rod
What is better internal or external extractor.
My S&W has external ejector and full length rod, but I think the internal extractor and short rod look better and am thinking about trading off for a Colt or Ruger.
Discussion is open

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Forum consigliere

I like the short guide rod better. It makes stripping the gun down easier. I chunked the one that was in my billboard model and replaced it with a short one. As far as the extractor goes I don't care. The external model seems to be more forgiving and less likely to break. The internal extractor is a lot easier to replace if it does break. I'll be glad when they get all the design flaws worked out of that new (1911) design.

I've never felt the need for a full length guide rod, the original standard design has never given me issues. I've owned 1911's with internal and external extractors, and they both perform just fine.

It's pretty much comes down to aesthetics, so I say go with what you like.

YMMV

I have long with external, short with external and short with internal, no noticeable differences that I can tell. All shoot equally accurate. Others may argue the long one is more accurate, but I think it's personal preference. As far as disassembly, the internal extractor is easier to remove, it comes out when you break down the firing pen assembly and the external you have to drive out a pin holding it into the frame, so for ease of cleaning definitely the internal extractor.

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As I understand it, the long one is to prevent the spring from kinking when it's shot.

I wonder how we managed, for those 60 years or so before long ones were invented, with the springs kinking all the time. I'm surprised the army didn't throw it out long about 1915.

To quote Colonel Cooper (although he was speaking of double action autos), I find the long guide rod to be "an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem".

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I always take precautions

Caj.: The external extractor cures a soft spot in the original M1911 design. The internal extractor must be watched and kept 'tuned' for proper action. Yes, the int. works for a good long period of time, but rest assured it will eventually become 'tired' and cause problems. The original short recoil spring guide rod is just fine, but so is the long rod. You can keep your S&W M 1911 and change out the long rod for the short and also change the end cap to a closed end unit with no problem. Then you have the best of all worlds. I like the S&W version of the M 1911 very much. My neighbor got one and I tuned it for him. I have a very expensive 'name' brand competition M 1911 that cost three times what the S&W did and to my regret it is not near three times better. ....

So do I.

In my experience, a longer, one piece guide rod works well, is not very noticeable, and is easy to replace if you like.

But, for me, an external extractor spoils the otherwise elegant appearance of this classic firearm. Like the S&W hole in the frame for a lock, it is a feature that prevents me from purchasing any handgun that has one.

Admittedly, I might be spoiled . . .

I've got 4 1911's, a Series 70 Gold Cup, built by a custom Smith with a Kart barrel, etc.; a Springfield Armory that started out as a GI model, and I built it up to a competition gun over several years, and 2 RIA Compacts, an 9mm and a 45. The Gold Cup is my bullseye gun, and has a short rod and internal extractor, (all 4 guns have internal extractor). The Springfield has gone through several stages, but presently has a short rod, Both RIA's have a long rod as factory equipped. Both the Gold Cup and the Springfield have around 60 to 70 thousand rounds each through them with no problems as long as I changed the recoil spring to match the loads being used. I did change the extractor in the Springfield once maybe 10 years ago, just because I thought I needed to, and still keep the old one in my parts box. Unless you are going to consistently put 20,000 rounds a year through one, I wouldn't worry about either the recoil spring rod or the extractor. (With the extractor, a couple swipes of a file in the right spot to keep the hook clean doesn't hurt.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

everybody says that the full length guide rod prevents the recoil spring from kinking however if you look at all of the parts there ain't a lot of room for the spring to kink in the first place. internal or external extractor isn't a big deal with me as I have had both with no problems. the guide rod should be short like JMB designed it. I will say that Kimber had some problems with external extractors so they changed back to internal. Kimber just didn't do their homework on it. if I seen a used Kimber with an external extractor I would approach with caution. I'm sure some people didn't have any problems with external but I know of others that did.

I've owned S&W 1911s and their external extractor certainly functions as advertised, not all companies that have used them have been as successful. I currently own only Colts and Springfields, some have their original extractors, some have better quality replacements, all function exactly as they should, as well. Checking and maintaining internal extractor tension is quick and easy to do, I do when replacing recoil springs. I think that the internal extractors are easier to trouble shoot and repair than the external kind, no pins or springs to mess with and lose, you can tune one for your gun and keep in your tool kit in case you break the one in the gun.


The guide rod argument is very much a personal preference thing. I've got FLGRs in most of my 1911s, I like the one piece Wilson version that allows for normal takedown. I don't find any accuracy advantage over the GI style guide rod, but the full length guide rod guns do cycle noticeably smoother, my full size Colt .38 Super in particular. I like them for that fact.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

Short guide rod for me, after having both (easier to field strip).

Internal extractor was standard for me until a Sig came along. It is easier to strip / clean the internal.

The full length guide rod would be a negative factor in a purchase today, the extractor? probably not so much.

Ok here we go I install a full length guide rod kit with a 18# recoil spring in all my 1911's. Without it I can hear the recoil spring binding when I run the slide slowly by hand. When the recoil spring is coiling and binding your losing the spring pressure but also gaining time on the cycle timing.

The FLGR adds a tad more weight up front reducing the recoil and reduces the cycle timing with less over travel. The recoil of the 1911 tends to be straight up and well under 2". You have a very fast follow up shot to your original POA. the pro's of using a FLGR is well ahead of the few con's it has.

Now fact, why is the front frame rail section seeing more wear side to side than the rear frame rail area? The cause is from the recoil spring cooling and binding. It's putting a horizontal side force on the slide. Every used 1911 that I look at has more frame rail wear in the front section over the rear section.

I like the 1911 just the way Browning designed it. I don't care for extended anything. Or extra grooves milled in the slide. (Are you supposed to wrap your hand over the muzzle?) Or extra levers. All 1911 clones that use any design variance from the original design are not improvements in my opinion.

I feel the same way about the Mauser 98...

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I also added the disconnector ramp it takes the bump out of the slide when it cycles also.

If Browning was alive today I'm sure he would of upgraded it.

The external extractor on 1911s got a bad name from Kimber's failed design (and that to 1911 purists, JMB didn't design them that way) but S&W and SIG got it right. It's interesting to me that almost all semi-automatic pistols use an external extractor, so if it was inherently less effective than an internal extractor, it looks like the makers would be making a design change to the internal model.

I personally prefer the short (or GI) guide rod and plug...I find disassembly much easier. There are adherents and proponents of both designs...the only serious problem I have ever encountered was with a two-piece FLGR which tended to unscrew when the gun was fired...not an optimal situation.

It's largely personal preference on either.

I'm sure they work just fine and even look "right" on other semi-automatic firearms.

But, a 1911 is a usually a work of art and an external extractor spoils the clean lines.

OK. Frankly, I think they are butt ugly on a 1911. But, I am old and sort of a curmudgeon.

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Me too

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Great minds think alike

I agree that a 1911 is the best looking semi-automatic handgun ever made...but I also want it to work. If the external extractor works better, then I'm all for it.

Well, here you go then.



All those fancy doodads on that newfangled Model of 1911 were Army mandated.

I only load the 1911a1 from the magazine on the first shot to chamber it.
You can detune the extractor on the inside. Once it's destined to stove pipe. Jam.

SP.....You got it right...........Its the way I like mine with ONE exception......Adjustable sights.

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S&W Accumulator

I am not picky about extractors. The external ones on my S&W autos work like a charm and I don't mind the looks. Either design is fine with me as long as they work. I do agree that the internal extractors seem to detune with use, but fixing them is hardly much of a problem. I think I've replaced about three in 47 years of 1911 shooting - in each case because the hook chipped, not because they couldn't be re-tensioned.

The guide rod thing is different. If you like to pinch check the gun (I do), then the GI style parts are preferable for a gun that you wear on your belt. I like the full-length rod in a target gun. Either way, those parts are simple and inexpensive to change.

Keep your S&W and just buy another 1911 of your choice.

I have been shooting a 1911 since 69 and see no need to change to anything other than a short recoil spring guide. The fl ones make the gun slower and more difficult to take down. I have no experience with the external extractor and have never had a problem with the internal.

Caj, I have a Ruger and really like it.

The only purpose I've ever found for the FLGR is that it makes the gun harder to disassemble. I have purchased two 1911s that had them, I have tired them and now both guns have the standard short rod.

None of my 1911s have an external extractor. Most of the internal extractor problems that I've run into were on used guns that I have bought.
However, I do see the reasoning for the external extractor. Bear in mind that the 1911 is a controlled feed system. Its designed for the cartridge rim to slid up under the extractor from underneath. But now and then a cartridge can jump ahead of the extractor forcing the extractor to hit and then bend over the case rim when the slide fully closes. This is what ultimately leads to extractor damage.
The worst thing you can do to the extractor in a 1911 is drop a round in the chamber and then release the slide on it. I've seen many people do this to a 1911 without knowing the damage they can cause.
A spring loaded external extractor eliminates this problem as it can simply ride over the case rim and spring back into position unharmed. As to if it actually works better or not is still open to debate.

Short or long guide rods work either way. Have "had" 1911's with external extractors. Prefer the lines of a pistol with an internal extractor. My preference is for the short guide rod and internal extractor.

I can't speak for guide rods. I don't have a preference. But if you're not the tinkering type a external extractor is better. I have one 1911 and it's an internal extractor. I've looked up videos of how to adjust it if I need to and everything seems to go by "feel". I don't do "feel" to me it either is or isn't so my next will be one with an external extractor

The internal extractor is unsprung by putting a round in the chamber first by hand then slamming the slide over it. There are tools for tuning the extractor at brownells. I purchased the extractor fixture for putting the correct spring tention back in it. I purchased the pull Gage and case fixture to check the holding tention on the internal extractor. I'm not one to guess.
My life may depend on my 1911. I only load the first round from the magazine. This way the extractor doesn't lose its tention. I did modify the bottom of the extractor by flaring it so the case rim coming up from the magazine will be guided into the mouth of the extractor much easier.

The John Browning 1911 site gives all the modifying tips. My 1911's function flawless like Swiss watches.

I have no wear on the front frame rails yet in 600+rds with the full length guide rod. No wear, no slide spread yet.

Ah it's harder to disassemble but the wear on the front frame rails is ok?
So what new 1911 are you going to purchase next when your 1911 that's easy to disassemble wears out?

How much recoil spring tention are we losing when the spring coils and binds as the slide starts to move reward? Over travel?

Having the FLGR installed there is less cycle timing from less over travel.

These are interesting points that in my limited but reasonably informed 1911 knowledge I've never encountered.

A full length guide rod mitigates wear on the frame rails, and something called "slide spread"?

Under rearward slide travel, the GI guide rod binds the recoil spring, saps tension and causes overtravel? But the full length fixes this?

Less cycle time is automatically better?

In what I've read about varying 1911 set-ups, all that's been said of full length guide rods is their intended purpose is to increase forward weight to improve muzzle control under fire, for which they do a modicum of what's intended in return for a take-down nuisance -- nothing about reliability or longevity.

Properly built 1911s, using quality parts, will run tens of thousands of rounds with very little needed in the way of part replacement. Is it really advised to opt for a full length guide rod to avoid a 1911 that'll "wear out"?

Obviously I'm skeptical, but also welcome new info; any reading you can point me to?

Caj,

Colt is making some pretty nice pistols these days. I have bought a couple of them in the last few months and they run great straight from the box and they look good doing it too.

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AL
Pax Per Potens

Something is causing the wear at the front frame rails. Why is the front rails looser than the rear on used 1911? I asked this question on all the 1911 forums/posts not an answer.
There's the recoil spring coiling and binding noise. Then there's the bump when the slide hits the disconnection as it cycles. Run your slide empty and feel it. Like I said I tuned and tweeked the extractor and added the disconnection ramp and FLGR she now runs so smooth.

Try your 1911 with no FLGR and install a 18# recoil spring. Run the slide by hand.

Because of the weaker 16# recoil spring there is over travel on the slide. It's a longer cycle timing. With the stronger spring & FLGR she cycles faster and smoother. The 1911 handles better and is more accurate. Just try the FLGR

MY 80 series colt is a fine 1911.

The full length guide rod is a gimmick it does nothing
A external extractor would be a improvement if it was done correctly, the SIG and S&W are at least as good as the internal...once you learn how to refine and tune a internal the want for a external goes away

I've only had one with an external extractor and FLGR (Kimber).It ran fine and was accurate,gave it to my son last Christmas,but I kept my colts

Gimmick?

It keeps the recoil spring on the centerline of the gun.

Now can someone say what causes the looseness on the front section of the rails?

Standard GI guide rod all the way! The FLGR is a solution looking for a problem to line the pockets of Wilson Combat IMHO.

I prefer the internal extractor because it is a user adjustable and user replaceable part. S&W & Sig will not send you the part. If you have a problem you have to send the pistol back in for service. With S&W it is not as big a deal because they always cover shipping and are the highest level of customer service in the industry but with Sig it all depends on which rep you get on the phone.

So does the tube that is created by the dust cover

Simple wear....the slide doesn't recoil straight back

WHAT IS A DISCONNECTION RAMP and how would you add one to a 1911 frame??

My Springfield "Loaded" model came with a full length guide rod. I swapped it out for the standard GI size. I've noticed no effect either way on reliability or accuracy. Made the swap simply to avoid having to use the allen wrench for field-stripping.

I own a Colt along with the Springfield with internal extractors and a Sig with an external extractor. They all work. (And Sig will send you one if you need one.)

The only 1911 I have is my S&W 108282 model. External extractor, full length guide rod. Thus far it has functioned flawlessly. Therefore I see not reason to change.

I think the internal extractor looks a little cleaner. The FLGR has not been an issue for me for field stripping and doesn't require any extra tools like an allen wrench etc.

The disconnector ramp is added on the bottom of the slide so the slide will slide over the disconnector smoother as the gun cycles. Just don't go too deep with the ramp. It's below the firing pin hole. When machined in the slide to the correct depth the round leaving the magazine is well clear of this notch. Don't go too deep. I make the ramp flush with the disconnector.

Do a search, 1911 disconnector ramp

Read the forum.m1911.org

You're talking about a Marvel disconnecter cut which is a nice and useful mod...the other stuff about what a flgr does is nonsense sorry to say, they don't cause any problems (besides takedown) but they bring no positives

For me, GI style short guide rods. Extractors don't matter to me either way. No rails on 1911's. No fish scale serrations on the slide. I can tolerate forward straight serrations, but prefer to have just the rear serrations.