Since S&W people are clearly persons of taste and refinement, I figured there has to be a substantial interest in L.C. Smith shotguns among members here.

I have this itch for a 20 gauge Elsie.

My quandary is that I already have two (count them, two) 16 gauge Elsies now. One, a Field Grade Featherweight, was purchased as my first serious grouse gun. The barrels are 28" skeet/IM. Many good memories of the gun and my spaniel, who took his first grouse under this gun.

The other one came along when I wasn't even looking (isn't that the way of things?), and is an Ideal Grade FW with a second, factory-fitted barrel set, Hunter One trigger, and ejectors. The barrels are 30" full/full and 26" mod/full. For the price I simply could not turn it down. Simply put, the current Blue Book suggests that I could double or triple my investment without too much trouble, at least to a serious buyer, if I wanted t flip it. (Which I don't. It's too pretty).

I bought into a FW 16 gauge because of the reputation of those guns as upland bird guns, and found that the reputation is deserved. Good iron. The 16s are built on the 20 gauge L.C. Smith frame, and my research shows that there are only 4-6 ounces difference in total weight for the same barrel lengths between the two bore sizes.

Logic dictates that a FW 20 gauge won't give me anything I don't already have in ballistic performance, style or ability to carry in the field with my 16s. I am not concerned about the relatively poor availability of 16 gauge ammo compared to 20 gauge.

Does anybody own and regularly shoot with both a 16- and 20-gauge Elsie that finds a compelling reason for owning both?

Ah yes, need vs want. The heck with need, if you want it scratch the itch and get it!

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Stay safe people!

Need is such a silly word.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

I've gotten a couple guns that I wanted through the years because they are neat. I now have 3 shotguns (all SxS) and hunt only 3 weekends a year so one is gonna be sold. A 20 ga Elsie could be a good investment over the years, the prices stay steady or increase. The 16 ga 2 bbl set would be neat to hunt with and enjoy. The 16 ga SxS is in demand again also a cool gauge to hunt with again. Good luck with your decision, Larry

If you are only concerned with shooting it, then you are correct...it's not going to give you anything you don't already have. Now, as far as a collector...that 20 gauge value can buy you two 16's.
If you know where one is for a reasonable price I would say go get it. A 20 gauge vintage quality American double gun is generally not the kind of gun you just get up one morning and say,"today I am going to get a 20 ga. L.C. Smith." and actually have one in your hands before sunset.
Unless you find something really wrong with it after you get the gun home, there is no place but up for the value to go with any 20ga. "top five" American double.

Want is paramount. Need is so over rated.

If you do not have a 20 LC you need it.

Write and send pics.

It is not true that the LCS 16 is built on a 20 ga frame. The FW LCS guns were all built from the same frame forging, which was introduced in 1907, but they were machined differently for each gauge, with different firing pin spacing and different barrel diameters. While there was a standard weight for each gauge, even that could be varied for special orders. I have a 16 ga field grade FW that was built to a special order, and is lighter than standard, with automatic ejectors. It also had special order 2 3/4" chambers, while 2 9/16" were standard in 1933 when the gun was built. When I disassembled the gun I found that it had lightening holes drilled into the frame in places where strength would not be affected and where they wouldn't show. I believe some bird hunter knew exactly what he wanted and ordered it. I usually hunt with a 1947 20 gauge, but that's just because I have a lot of shells for it, and would have to buy ammo for the 16.

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Tom
1560

I passed on a 20 gauge L.C. Ideal grade in nice but not great condition for $800 in 94 or 95 and have lamented it ever since.

Ivan

I can give you a good reason to buy the 20 Gauge. At some point in the future you may be forced to shoot non toxic shot. If that day comes it will be much easier to find and afford non toxic 20 gauge shells.

See there is a really good reason to justify the purchase.

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Bill Bates

Thanks to all for the input so far.

I am on a business trip at present, and will drive past where the LCS 20-ga lives on the way home. Will jump on it, or not, in the next few days.

The gun has two significant issues, a cracked stock that was less-than-perfectly repaired, and the chokes have been reamed out to cyl/cyl. Otherwise the gun is about 50-60 percent for finish (patina barrels, no unprotected case colors), locks up solidly, lever right of center. Bores clean and bright, no dings, and measure exactly 28", so likely uncut.

The chokes don't bother me other than the possibillty of patterns being off center. (Will have to pattern it and see). The amateur stock repair...I don't know.

I'm thinking if I can get the gun for well under a grand it may be worth working with it to fix the issues that are present. Otherwise, I'll save my money and get a better one.

I was all excited for you until these revelations. I say content yourself with the two you have until you can find a better one. But that's just me,I guess.
f.t.

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South Carolina-God's country

i live in west monroe,louisiana and recently inherited an ideal grade 20 guage l c smith made in 1922 with all of the blueing and 85-90 percent condition. i am wanting to sell it.

I've done the fine double thing and it did absolutely nothing for my image as a man of taste and refinement.

Of course not.
Therefore you must get it.

N.B. If you really needed it you would not have asked.

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

If you don't want it, and it is priced in line with the two problem area's, PM me where it could be purchased, as I've wanted one in Skeet&Skeet or cyl/cyl to shoot skeet with.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

There are talented people around who could probably work wonders with the stock and open chokes work great for most hunting.Buy it!

Will do, Richard.

True, but I'm trying to be mature about this. I already have three rescue project guns and am facing the practicality of finding one that is already "good enough" that it won't wind up on the bench instead of in the field.

Being patient and choosing the optimal one is my present burden
and will attest to personal growth on my part.

My wife taught me a very valuable lesson....if it's not exactly what you want don't buy it, don't settle, wait until you find the right one. She reminds me this about our marriage. I always ask her, why did you settle for me??
The first thing to do with any double gun is unhinge the barrels, hang them on one of your fingers by the hinge and thump them with your other hands fingernail. Listen for a sweet long high pitched ring like a tuning fork. If the noise you hear is more of a dull thump put the gun back together and leave. The nice ring tells you that those barrels are good and the solder is still all intact. A dull thud tells you that the barrels are not in great shape and some of the solder has cracked or deteriorated. They probably have loose ribs.
Typically, barrels that have been compromised were hot blued by some idiot. Many doubles are older guns and depending on a lot of factors the solder holding them together can simply deteriorate. Once this happens, unless it's one that has lightning bolts on the barrels, it costs way more than the gun is worth to fix.

Did it first thing. They ring.

The cracked stock (behind the lock plates) is a common problem to LCS's. A lest than superb repair is also often seen. What can't be seen underneath can be a horror show sometimes. Cavernous dremel dig-outs with all sorts of glued in supports. All in the hope of saving the wood from further splitting.
The LCS butt stock doesn't afford much recoil support on it's best inletting, but it can and does hold up if done correctly. Likewise a correct repair can save some very badly cracked and otherwise botched repair jobs.

Hunter One Triggers (HOT) and ejectors can cause all sorts of headaches, The latter especially if the butt stock has been off of the gun for repair or just for lookin' as some people are apt to do.
Just over tightening the tang screws a quarter turn or so can effect the HOT (or most any of the older single triggers like the Parker, Ithaca, ect). Tightening the lockplate screw too tight pulling the plates inward can cause it to malfunction too.
An easy 'fix' for some gun mechanics is to back off the screws till the trigger works L/R and R/L when dry fired. All set!,,not hardly. That usually leaves the action/frame slightly loose in the stock. The wood gets battered during shooting and the fragile Elsie stock (and the other makes too) develop cracks.
'Ringing' the bbls,,hanging them from your finger and tapping them to make them chime can produce some results for you too see if there are loose rib(s) or not. But don't rely on the method too awful much as the loose rib the technique will uncover will be an obvious one. Usually a rattler a few inches long at the muzzle end or up against the forend lug. You should be able to see and feel those with a normal visual inspection which should be done before purchase anyway.

The test will not show any gaps or bridges in the rib that are loose,,unless they are several inches in length,,say 8 or 9" and more.
The bbls will still ring like a bell.
Again those you should spot easily enough by eyeball.
Look closely, use a magnifier if needed. Go up one side and down the other of each rib slowly.Pressing on the rib as you go. You'll see it move if loose any distance. You may see oil squeeze out from the seam.
It is a true rarity to find ribs w/o a pin-hole or two in the soldered joints of the rib when bluing them and they are in the water tank. But unsoldered joints should be taken care of.

Check bbls for cut bbls,,especially those w/ cyl/cyl chokes.
Uneven muzzle, muzzle that's not square, fresh solder in btw bbls at muzzle, rough finish on edges of bbls at muzzle. Sight bead slightly off center or too far forward or back. Muzzles of bbls usually touch,,BUT not always. A wide spacing betw them is a good indication of a cut.

If you are happy with the bbls anyway, choke tubes either replaceable or permanent can be installed, though figure the $$.

From the L.C. Smith Collectors Association site, in response to the FAQ regarding how many different frame sizes were made for LCS shotguns:

The Featherweight (FW) frame was introduced with the 20 gauge gun in 1907 (SN 1104 completed December 4, 1907), and was produced in two sizes: 12 gauge and 16/20 gauge.

Thanks to all for the information and advice.

Decided not to buy the LCS 20 under discussion. Determined that there are other good buys out there without buying someone else's problem to fix.

H Richard: check your PM's