I found my grandfathers old gun. I think its a Russian copy of a Smith& Wesson.
Thats a 5 shot, barrel 5 in, 5 screw model.

Please hep ID

Thanks
John[ATTACH][ATTACH]IMG_2890.jpg[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

Attached Images

	IMG_2888.jpg (40.5 KB, 761 views)
	IMG_2889.jpg (75.9 KB, 767 views)

That's really an unusual logo marking. I didn't know the Russians made S&W copies, but other countries did, mainly Spain. But it doesn't look Spanish. I am assuming it is a .32 of some sort. Can you tell the caliber?

The caliber is a 38

That's even stranger for a revolver like that with a 5-chamber cylinder. Definitely a copy, but I can't say more than that. Whatever it is, I don't think I'd try shooting it. Maybe someone else will recognize it. Maybe oriental? Khyber Pass?

Never saw a 5 shot S&W copy/counterfeit before. My money is on it being a Khyber Pass gun. Maybe Phillipines.

__________________
Gunsmithing since 1961

The S&W logo on the gun does not look like genuine S&W stamping. doesn't look like the medallion in the grip either, it may not be genuine either.............................M*

Any ideas what to do with it?

If it is determined that it isn't safe to shoot, and isn't something valuable, maybe make a wallhanging out of it by having it mounted on a plaque.

Or maybe have it disabled by putting a spot of weld into the chambers AND the forcing cone. It would still look cool, just no more danger of anyone trying to shoot it.

Just a thought.

The grips may be S&W issue so they should be disregarded in identifying the gun. Note the wear at the indexing notches, indicating that this gun was fired often and frequently and it's still in one piece.

I would enjoy the gun and use it but with standard velocity ammo only. I suspect that this gun may have some endshake, an easy fix.

Yeah... OR it's been dry-fired a lot

If it's a S&W 38 (not 38 special) then it might only be safe with black powder cartidges, right?

I think if I tried shooting it at all I'd start by mounting it in a vice and using a string to pull the trigger from the other side of a blast barrier (wall, tree, etc.)

But I tend to be pretty cautious when it comes to my face, eyes, fingers, etc.

First, we don't know WHAT .38 cartridge it is chambered for - but I'd say .38 S&W is most likely. But there are several other possibilities that cannot be discounted. No matter which it is, I wouldn't shoot anything in it, except maybe wax bullet loads in the back yard or garage. I wouldn't try to deactivate it. There are a few collectors around who do collect knockoff guns, and this is a most unusual one to say the least.

It certainly looks like a S&W, markings aside. Seems possible it is a S&W made for a foreign market or at an overseas factory. It does not look like a cheaply made gun. Have you examined the internals yet?
You might contact S&W with a photo to get their opinion.

Yes i did open it up the internals are identical to the S&W.
I will email S&W to see what they say.

Paperweight

__________________
James Redfield
LM #497

Bore obstruction would not keep someone from shooting it, just make it much more dangerous.
Bad idea.

Good point, I should have just said chambers AND forcing cone. Shouldn't do one without the other. I was thinking of the welded up barrels on old decommissioned military weapons. I edited my suggestion.

Chinese? Khyber pass?

I love that logo, it reminds me of a variety of stampings put on guns by people who don't speak or read English. They end up looking sort of right, but hilariously wrong.

It's a cool paperweight to be sure.

Just loosen up the tension screw on the mainspring.
My bet is that it's a knock off a S&W. I don't think Smith made it.

OOOOH OOOOH I know, remove the hammer nose. That way it can't fire but otherwise retains full functionality and is easy to repair if desired.

Regardless of where this gun was made, it is evident that the factory had the necessary machining to turn out a decent replica/counterfeit.

The cylinder appears to be full length, leading me to believe that it's chambered in .38 SPL rather than the shorter .38 S&W. The OP can save us a lot of guesswork by simply trying to chamber a .38 SPL round in it. If the gun is a .38 S&W, the Special won't chamber.

A closer look at the logo in the grips indicates that this too was not made by S&W.

If it were mine. I'd leave it alone no welds no hammer removal and figure out what cartridge fits. Then I'd shoot it with light loads enjoying it as it is.
Then I'd start looking for my next acquisition. Isn't that what most of us do? We are never satisfied...

Perhaps your grandfather had a friend or two who could help with some info.

I would never dream of shooting it. Just have it around as a keepsake. There are way too many M&Ps / Model 10s still available at reasonable prices.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

Not knowing anything else about it, I personally wouldn't attempt shooting it with anything other than wax bullet loads (assuming the actual caliber it is chambered for can be determined). Nor would I do anything to deactivate it. What's the point? It's just a very unusual curio and memento.

Maybe it slipped out of the plant the week that the quality control department was on holiday break!

A lot of the early Spanish knockoffs were chambered in 9mm REVOLVER Largo. Not much different from .38 Long Colt.

There are many different .38 rimmed CF cartridges from various places in the world, used at various times. The Japanese military once used a revolver cartridge similar to the .38 S&W, and some of those Japanese service revolvers were used during WWII, along with the Nambu semi-auto pistols. If that unknown revolver originally came from Japan (which I doubt), that could be the proper cartridge.

Some dimensions of the cartridge[ATTACH][ATTACH]324.jpg[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

Attached Images

	322.jpg (63.6 KB, 106 views)
	323.jpg (59.3 KB, 98 views)

Having a chamber diameter of 0.394", it would be consistent with the .38 S&W. Not that SAAMI specs mean anything in this case, but the SAAMI chamber diameter is 0.390-0.394" for the .38 S&W, so at least a .38 S&W cartridge would fit. Were it a Khyber Pass product, .38 S&W would be possible, as many guns made there were chambered for British cartridges.

You would be surprised what the folks in the Khyber Pass region can do with just basic tools. I have seen a few Enfields done by them no they are not great but when you realize what they have to work with it is amazing what they can do.

I saw a video once showing how ammunition was made in the Khyber Pass. Very primitive, but I guess it must work. I suspect the gun manufacturing is just as primitive. Those people have been at the gun trade for centuries. Apparently, Westerners are not welcomed to see how they do it.

Wow. And it's a 5-screw with diamond magnas and a pinned barrel!

I certainly wouldn't disable it, but I'd sure expend the effort to identify it and find out where it came from. I'd also resist any and all suggestions to get rid of it.

Keep us posted if you find out more about it.

There was an article in one of the leading gun magazines back in the seventies (can't remember which one), that showed the Afghans and their techniques and talent for gun making. All they needed was an original and they could copy it almost perfectly...using the most basic of tools and techniques.

They were/are famous, also, for their single shot, long barrelled muzzle loading rifles called jezzails. They make these things basically from scratch using no plans at all. They just take pieces of steel and wood and turn them into a very deadly rifle. They are accomplished marksmen with these guns.

Yes, I remember reading that article. If I had to guess, I would say it appeared in Guns & Ammo.

I would humbly submit that making a copy that looks correct and making one that is properly heat treated, etc., are two different things. Maybe those back alley gun manufacturers can really make a functional, reliable, safe firearm. I'll never know.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

There are no lawyers in that area to sue the gunmakers for product liability.

Yes, I think it was Guns & Ammo.

As far as the Afghan gun makers making functional/reliable/safe firearms...they used their homemade rifles to drive the British out of Kabul in 1842. They massacred the British 44th Foot and thousands of soldiers and civilians during the retreat. I think something like 16,000 started out on the retreat, but hard as it may be to believe, only one survived.

Any statistics on how many of those guns blew up in 1842?

Those were black powder guns. Today's pressures are a mite higher.

__________________
You're shy a few manners.

Smokeless powder rifles were being made by the French and Germans as early as the late 1880s, using what would today be considered inferior metallurgy and designs. And they held together OK. Remember, modern guns are designed and made with a large safety factor to ensure against blow-ups in normal use. The Afghans were producing knock-offs of the British Lee-Enfield rifles from about the time the British themselves started using them, and they seem to have worked safely. I've read that a few of those Khyber Pass Enfields may still be in use by the Taliban and Al Quaeda.

That is truly interesting, I'd tie it to a tire or a tree with a cord and fire it just for the pure devil in me.
A guy I know brought back a copy of a 1911 that he got while working in Afghanistan in the early years. According to him he stumbled on a shop while going through a bazaar with some friends. The guys that worked in the shop were firing an AK-47 full auto into the air, a full magazine, then there were congratulations all around. He checked into it and found that they make just about any firearm you can think of, they showed him the 1911 and he was amazed at how well made it was made, considering it was made from raw steel and a file basically. He told me how they had a large grinding wheel like a potters wheel that turned horizontally on the ground and that was how they ground the flats on the frame and receiver. Those guys are well known for manufacturing AK-47 type rifles and in that trade they are known as Kyber Pass style rifles and often carry quite a price tag among collectors.

Talk about splittin' hairs...

Actually I think the topic was splitting chambers/barrels/etc.
Or at least the potential for it

Thanks for every ones help.

Sort of a tangent, but Gun Digest had a pretty interesting article, "The Afghan and his SMLE" which had some interesting discussion on the tooling of Enfield rifles and Revolvers, by the Mujihadeen in the Khyber Pass during the Russian occupation. It was fascinating.

The only thing that might indicate Russia is the letter И, which is also used in other Cyrillic albabets such as Bulgarian and other Slavic countries. Other characters that might be Russian, such as T, A, and E, are also used in Latin albabets as well as Cyrillic, so this is not much of a clue. Then there are a couple of characters that don't look like anything that I recognize. Almost as if someone who is illiterate, or possibly Asian language only was trying to replicate the S&W trademark, without understanding what each of the little marks meant. Don't think that I have helped much here, just my two cents worth.

If it's a family heirloom, definitely leave it intact, and enjoy it for its sentimental value. Thanks for sharing....

And welcome to the forum!!! Someone may be along later who can solve the riddle....

__________________
SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Does it have a serial number?

No serial number

I'd make it inoperable, mount it in a nice box and hang it on the wall. Nice conversation piece.

Why does everyone seem to want to make it inoperable? I don't understand.

The metal is of unknown quality as is the quality of internal parts and fitting. Shooting it may be hazardous. Also, if I have a wall hanger and it gets stolen, I don't want it capable of functioning. It is a family heirloom. Easily reversible procedures can be incorporated to make the revolver inop. If the OP wants a similar gun to shoot, there are plenty of high quality revolvers for sale at reasonable prices.

Yeah, those letters are a riddle indeed, as far as language analysis. I agree on the Cyrillic reference but that is as far as I can directly get. Played with google translate trying to write them but get no meaningful English words in light of the reference hear being Trade Mark. Going the other way, and trying every version of the words Trade Mark to other languages yields no direct hit either.

For instance in Russian Trade Mark => товарны******** знак
Tajik => тамға******** т********ҷорат****************
Macedonian => тр********овска марка

I give up!