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  #101  
Old 01-28-2016, 01:15 AM
clang444 clang444 is offline
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Originally Posted by WATCHDOG View Post
Right. They were proficient, but they couldn't stay on the paper? Okey dokey. That's right, though, I keep forgettin' it was the fault of them ol' rattletrap G.I. .45s.



Might have been, I can't speak for the whole danged Air Force (apologies to Will Stockdale). But just like the Army, and every other branch of the military, we had our share of weenies who couldn't hit the floor if they dropped the pistol on it. Most of 'em finally got the hang of it, though.

Speaking for myself only, I think the last time I ever missed the paper completely might have been back when I was around 9-years-old and shootin' my daddy's .22 rifle for the first time. That was well over a half-century ago, though. Now, I'm no kind of a marksman, but I've never missed the paper at 25- or 50-yards with any 1911, old or new. That includes my "mixmaster rattletrap" 1943 Remington Rand in the photo below.





Give that 1943 Rem Rand a couple more arsenal refinishes, mix the parts with several other guns, give the barrel crown a few good dings and issue it to about 25 more servicemen for the next 25 years and then see how accurate it is. You'll be bawling like a 9 year old that couldn't hit anything with Daddy's .22.

; )
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  #102  
Old 01-28-2016, 10:39 AM
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Not sure I'd be in the market for one but I am sure that I'm glad the CMP might get a chance at them rather than having them destroyed or sold off overseas.
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  #103  
Old 01-30-2016, 10:27 PM
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M1 Carbine orders being taken FEB 1st, 2016 by CMP. Two grades. $600+ Dollars Received the email yesterday. No money in my slush fund.
  #104  
Old 02-02-2016, 08:42 PM
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Not unhappy, I'm content, just not throwing my hard earned $$ away.
A $1,000 is two new 1911's?
  #105  
Old 07-15-2017, 09:38 PM
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What happened to the CMP that was about getting quality firearms into the hands of the public at prices they could afford? That's what I remember happening. Not this "grab every buck you can" stuff. What are they spending it one? Who gets the money? These were government weapons we are talking about. We paid for them once already. And the price tag even going back to WWII wasn't paid for a very long time.

Quote:
Maybe they
should let Post Office handle sales, they could manage to go in
the hole on the deal.
Come on guy. The Post Office only started losing money because congress decided to loot their payments into their retirement funds. They made money every year except one over the entire history of the independent USPS until congress got involved. They blamed the PO. That's what they do. They take your money and declare you are too lazy to support yourself. Please pay attention before slamming things. What you see is often smoke and mirrors coming from Washington.
  #106  
Old 07-15-2017, 10:16 PM
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We got this national debt thing don'tcha know.. Heck, them red neck gun nuts got more money than brains. Let's sell them these here taxpayer bought guns to them and we won't have to quit spending money here in DC.
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  #107  
Old 07-16-2017, 10:01 AM
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They'll sell a boat load of these to collectors, military re-enactors and veterans. I'm a shooter and have enough nice 1911's to do that. I hope they sell all they can get. The CMP does actually promote marksmanship, especially among the young. If you don't know that, it isn't because they aren't doing it, it is because you haven't taken the time to find out.
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  #108  
Old 07-16-2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Drm50 View Post
These pistols are WW2 production. I don't know how much they cost govt, but a new 1911 Colt was $100 at gunshops in 1969.
Right. Gas was $.35 a gallon and a loaf of bread was about $.33 in 1969. I was still in the military. Richard Nixon was president. We were still in Vietnam. Neil Armstrong walked on the moon for the first time. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Wild Bunch, and True Grit were all playing in theaters in 1969.

Guess what?

It ain't 1969 any more.
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  #109  
Old 07-16-2017, 04:43 PM
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I will await actual developments and not decide based on official speculation. Yes, I could get a new Rock Island for a lot less, but I know the Rock Island was not at Bastogne. No guarantee the CMP guns ever left the states, but sometimes even an old man can dream.
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  #110  
Old 07-16-2017, 05:19 PM
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Since many missed this the first time. CMP by US Code may sell at fair market value.
Call your Congressman.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/redirec...t%2F36%2F40732
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  #111  
Old 07-16-2017, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
The CMP does actually promote marksmanship, especially among the young. If you don't know that, it isn't because they aren't doing it, it is because you haven't taken the time to find out.
No one said they didn't. I am fully aware of their practices. I also know that to sell guns they get for free for a price that is actually taking business away from gun makers is not exactly fair and does not contribute to the shooting skills of youth. They have in the past sold firearms that were reasonably priced that did put quality guns in the hands of those that may not have been able to afford them otherwise i.e. the youth.

I've been accused of not knowing the mandate of the 501(c)(3) corporation known as CMP (not even it's real name actually). The original mission was stated over 100 years ago and it has always been about serving potential soldiers. They could serve youth better by selling at a price that makes a quality gun available to those who can't afford them otherwise.

I not only checked the mission statement on the CMP web page but I also checked the historical role mandated by congress for the CMP. People continue to think this is about some of us wanting guns cheaper. Once more I wouldn't buy one at half the price they're selling them for. That's not my reason for posting.

I found this statement on the CMP web site:

The law specifically states: In carrying out the Civilian Marksmanship Program, the corporation shall give priority to activities that benefit firearms safety, training, and competition for youth and that reach as many youth participants as possible.

It's the "as many youth participants as possible" that sticks in my craw. They take guns that are military rejects and sell them to collectors. How that helps youth participate is beyond me. You need a gun to participate and they get theirs for free from the government. I understand they operate ranges and conduct classes and contests. Those are also limited to people who can afford to travel to the limited number of ranges available. Selling guns as a reasonable price to those who could use the opportunity to learn to shoot should be part of what they do and it isn't. Not now even though it has been in the past. I really don't see that the higher number of youth participants are served by selling to collectors and limiting their influence to certain ranges. I know my gun club is a qualifying club for the right to buy their firearms. But I have yet to see any benefit from the CMP as far as teaching youth to shoot there.

Any time I see a 501(c)(3) taking in large amounts of money I suspect it isn't being spent according to their provisions. Those organizations are required to do only those things prescribed and they "none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual." Excuse me but I suspect that isn't the case here. How much are the officials running the CMP being paid? Those things aren't easily learned. Their entire budget should be easily studied but I don't know where to find such things. And the abuses of 501(c)(3) groups are well known. For example the NCAA avoids paying taxes on the billions it takes in using public facilities. That organization is a 501(c)(3). I find it very strange a group making that much money is exempt from taxes (and how much do their directors make?).

The CMP should promote it's mission. IMO it doesn't serve that mission by being a retail outlet for milsurp weapons that were paid for by taxes and donated to be used by the CMP to serve youth participants. I bet the number of youths buying these guns is minuscule.

That's my problem with this and it doesn't come from a personal desire to secure a discount weapon. I have said so before yet others continue to charge that it's about that issue. It isn't.

I've said all I will on this. I've made my case.
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  #112  
Old 07-16-2017, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C J View Post
No one said they didn't. I am fully aware of their practices. I also know that to sell guns they get for free for a price that is actually taking business away from gun makers is not exactly fair and does not contribute to the shooting skills of youth. They have in the past sold firearms that were reasonably priced that did put quality guns in the hands of those that may not have been able to afford them otherwise i.e. the youth.

I've been accused of not knowing the mandate of the 501(c)(3) corporation known as CMP (not even it's real name actually). The original mission was stated over 100 years ago and it has always been about serving potential soldiers. They could serve youth better by selling at a price that makes a quality gun available to those who can't afford them otherwise.

I not only checked the mission statement on the CMP web page but I also checked the historical role mandated by congress for the CMP. People continue to think this is about some of us wanting guns cheaper. Once more I wouldn't buy one at half the price they're selling them for. That's not my reason for posting.

I found this statement on the CMP web site:

The law specifically states: In carrying out the Civilian Marksmanship Program, the corporation shall give priority to activities that benefit firearms safety, training, and competition for youth and that reach as many youth participants as possible.

It's the "as many youth participants as possible" that sticks in my craw. They take guns that are military rejects and sell them to collectors. How that helps youth participate is beyond me. You need a gun to participate and they get theirs for free from the government. I understand they operate ranges and conduct classes and contests. Those are also limited to people who can afford to travel to the limited number of ranges available. Selling guns as a reasonable price to those who could use the opportunity to learn to shoot should be part of what they do and it isn't. Not now even though it has been in the past. I really don't see that the higher number of youth participants are served by selling to collectors and limiting their influence to certain ranges. I know my gun club is a qualifying club for the right to buy their firearms. But I have yet to see any benefit from the CMP as far as teaching youth to shoot there.

Any time I see a 501(c)(3) taking in large amounts of money I suspect it isn't being spent according to their provisions. Those organizations are required to do only those things prescribed and they "none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual." Excuse me but I suspect that isn't the case here. How much are the officials running the CMP being paid? Those things aren't easily learned. Their entire budget should be easily studied but I don't know where to find such things. And the abuses of 501(c)(3) groups are well known. For example the NCAA avoids paying taxes on the billions it takes in using public facilities. That organization is a 501(c)(3). I find it very strange a group making that much money is exempt from taxes (and how much do their directors make?).

The CMP should promote it's mission. IMO it doesn't serve that mission by being a retail outlet for milsurp weapons that were paid for by taxes and donated to be used by the CMP to serve youth participants. I bet the number of youths buying these guns is minuscule.

That's my problem with this and it doesn't come from a personal desire to secure a discount weapon. I have said so before yet others continue to charge that it's about that issue. It isn't.

I've said all I will on this. I've made my case.
You may feel you have made your case but I do not. They sell the old guns to raise money to promote shooting sports and markmanship as mandated.

How can they do that without money?

Who has money but collectors?

Do you really think new shooters will enjoy shooting a 30-06 or 45ACP as their introduction to marksmanship?

The only source of CMP revenue is the sales of surplus. They must sell at "market value". If you think the prices are high and you won't pay them does not mean others won't.

The CMP has been the source for reasonably priced Garands for a long time. The 45s will be no different WHEN they come for sale.
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  #113  
Old 07-16-2017, 09:39 PM
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No facts, no case. As Judge Judy would say " case dismissed".
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  #114  
Old 07-16-2017, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladder13 View Post
I'm looking into my crystal ball and can't seem to see these mix and match everyone else does. Help a poor boy out here, post some pics.
The 1911s that were in service back in RVN era were from W2
production. Most had refits as needed to keep in service.
I was never issued a Colt, Remington Rand seemed to be leading
make to me. That is until a ORD guy told me that they redid a
lot of guns with RR slides. That's why 1911s got a bad rep. You
couldn't trade a GI issue 1911 at most LGS back in 50s & 60s
no one wanted one. This may have been regional, and only
Army- I was to young to worry about the finer points of GI 1911s
back then.
I do think it a load of **** as far as pricing, vets should get good
deal. Allowing people to buy them up for resale isn't right. If I'm
not mistaken under the DCM you were not suppose to sell the guns you got for them. One bunch of politicians pay $12@ to
have M1s destroyed, the next bunch wants blood money for a
well worn 1911. This must be only govt. program ever to turn a
profit. The price on these to vets should have nothing to do with
market price, because they should not be for market purposes.
I say hand them out to the vets that carried them, in order of
dates of service. If there is any left sell them to the "historians"
and speculators for $5k each to make up the bottom line.
  #115  
Old 07-16-2017, 10:05 PM
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Personally I don't think the CMP has been gouging anyone on the Garands and Carbines, based on what I see people selling them for at gunshows. I bought a Postal Meter M-1 Carbine from CMP a few years ago for around $650. Try finding a decent M-1 Carbine for $650 in a shop or at a show. At the same time I got my Carbine I saw guys at shows flipping the same $650 guns for $1,000, so it could be argued they were selling them below market price.

If I can get an Ithaca 1911A-1 from CMP for under $2,000 then I'll buy it. $1,000 or $1,500 for a USGI 1911 doesn't seem that outrageous these days. I haven't seen a GI .45 in a shop for less than $1,000 in a long time. They'll sell all those 1911's as fast as they can push them out the door, and before you know it they'll all be gone.
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  #116  
Old 07-17-2017, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C J View Post
No one said they didn't. I am fully aware of their practices. I also know that to sell guns they get for free for a price that is actually taking business away from gun makers is not exactly fair and does not contribute to the shooting skills of youth. They have in the past sold firearms that were reasonably priced that did put quality guns in the hands of those that may not have been able to afford them otherwise i.e. the youth.

I've been accused of not knowing the mandate of the 501(c)(3) corporation known as CMP (not even it's real name actually). The original mission was stated over 100 years ago and it has always been about serving potential soldiers. They could serve youth better by selling at a price that makes a quality gun available to those who can't afford them otherwise.

I not only checked the mission statement on the CMP web page but I also checked the historical role mandated by congress for the CMP. People continue to think this is about some of us wanting guns cheaper. Once more I wouldn't buy one at half the price they're selling them for. That's not my reason for posting.

I found this statement on the CMP web site:

The law specifically states: In carrying out the Civilian Marksmanship Program, the corporation shall give priority to activities that benefit firearms safety, training, and competition for youth and that reach as many youth participants as possible.

It's the "as many youth participants as possible" that sticks in my craw. They take guns that are military rejects and sell them to collectors. How that helps youth participate is beyond me. You need a gun to participate and they get theirs for free from the government. I understand they operate ranges and conduct classes and contests. Those are also limited to people who can afford to travel to the limited number of ranges available. Selling guns as a reasonable price to those who could use the opportunity to learn to shoot should be part of what they do and it isn't. Not now even though it has been in the past. I really don't see that the higher number of youth participants are served by selling to collectors and limiting their influence to certain ranges. I know my gun club is a qualifying club for the right to buy their firearms. But I have yet to see any benefit from the CMP as far as teaching youth to shoot there.

Any time I see a 501(c)(3) taking in large amounts of money I suspect it isn't being spent according to their provisions. Those organizations are required to do only those things prescribed and they "none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual." Excuse me but I suspect that isn't the case here. How much are the officials running the CMP being paid? Those things aren't easily learned. Their entire budget should be easily studied but I don't know where to find such things. And the abuses of 501(c)(3) groups are well known. For example the NCAA avoids paying taxes on the billions it takes in using public facilities. That organization is a 501(c)(3). I find it very strange a group making that much money is exempt from taxes (and how much do their directors make?).

The CMP should promote it's mission. IMO it doesn't serve that mission by being a retail outlet for milsurp weapons that were paid for by taxes and donated to be used by the CMP to serve youth participants. I bet the number of youths buying these guns is minuscule.

That's my problem with this and it doesn't come from a personal desire to secure a discount weapon. I have said so before yet others continue to charge that it's about that issue. It isn't.

I've said all I will on this. I've made my case.
If your CMP affiliated club isn't taking advantage of the CMP programs to serve the youth, it is because no one at your club is taking on the job. The CMP has a large number of youth participating in air gun matches at both of its indoor ranges every year among various other programs. Building ranges and providing people to monitor them isn't cheap. Your suspicions regarding the misuse of moneys by the CMP are just suspicions until you provide facts. I think that casting aspersions upon the CMP because of what you think might be happening is totally unfair. All this is because you want to buy a pistol for way under market value?
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  #117  
Old 07-17-2017, 10:50 AM
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I still have the 1962 notification from the old DCM that my request to purchase a "unserviceable" M1911 @ $17.50 was on hold "until further notice". I wonder if the CMP is inclined to honor it now???

Fortunately I got two while they were all over the place--a Remington Rand, "secondhand" that my folks bought me for Christmas for $25, and another excellent RR for $45. Still have both...plus a few others.

Still, it's nice that people have a soft spot for the old warriors. I sure do.

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Old 07-17-2017, 01:21 PM
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I'm with CJ on this one.

I recall when I WAS a youth. The DCM was dedicated to marksmanship training, and wasn't an out of control non profit selling surplus guns at market prices to collectors.

For example, back when the cost of a nice M1 Garand was $125 through DCM, a Garand in the same condition would sell for around $400 at a local gun show. DCM was basically covering it's actual costs rather than making a buck. Their mission was promoting marksmanship and consistent with that, their surplus firearm sales were intended to ensure people could get an affordable Garand or 1911 that they could then use in local service rifle and bullseye competitions where they could learn basic marksmanship skills - regardless of age.

What I've seen of CMP isn't that. They've got a bad case of a non profit pursuing obscene profits. In this case, rather than using the profits for infrastructure, they pour it in to an endowment fund they've had since 1999.

For example here was what was said in the FY 2013 annual report:

"During FY13 proceeds from the sale of government surplus rifles and ammunition fully funded all CMP programs, providing a substantial excess of revenue over expenses for our eleventh consecutive year. This excess is invested in CMP’s permanent endowment, providing funds to finance CMP programs in future years when the supply of government surplus rifles is exhausted."


In essence, they justify this substantial surplus for numerous consecutive years on the basis that surplus firearms might dry up someday - which hasn't happened in the 18 years since the endowment fund was started. The focus on "surplus rifles" also ignores the revenue from ammunition, parts, books, other products, and the government surplus handguns which we are now starting to see.

Ever wonder how large that endowment fund is 18 years down the track? I sure do. Good luck finding that information.

The CMP has become an agency that's soul focus is continuing and ensuring its own existence, at the expense of its mission.
  #119  
Old 07-17-2017, 01:57 PM
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I've said all I will on this.
Thank goodness!
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  #120  
Old 07-17-2017, 02:04 PM
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The IRS is waiting to help.

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-pr...-organizations
  #121  
Old 07-17-2017, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
All this is because you want to buy a pistol for way under market value?
I guess it doesn't matter how many times I say it. I DON'T WANT ONE AT HALF THE PRICE THEY WILL SELL FOR!!! I'm not a collector. I have zero use for a worn out 1911.

And those that say,

Quote:
No facts, no case. As Judge Judy would say " case dismissed".
I'm glad you finally agree with me that you have no point. I cited chapter and verse from the CMP web site but I guess that doesn't register with some.

And those that are glad I'm done with this should mind their manners. I do.
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  #122  
Old 07-17-2017, 02:27 PM
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Used to be a time when manners meant not crapping in someone's thread with negative bellyaching nonsense.
Most would just start another thread of their own with a counterpoint. Manners.....yeah, they don't exist.

Now, call the IRS.
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  #123  
Old 07-17-2017, 02:39 PM
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While I would like a lower price, i certainly hope they put a very low limit on number of pistols sold to an individual per year (one or two) and prohibit "flipping" on GB (otherwise loose your CMP privileges for life) so Billy Bob and Cleetus don't corner the market.
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  #124  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphydog View Post
The CMP is obligated by law (statute?) to sell at market prices. That being said, they will have no problems selling them - not as quickly as if they were $500, but they will sell. Watch out for the sky-high auction prices on the nicer ones.
So $1K is market price for an old worn gun? It's not as though they're a rarity.. They produced over a million of them. I think they're just seeing dollar signs.
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:29 PM
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ditrina ditrina is offline
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CMP 1911 pricing is announced CMP 1911 pricing is announced CMP 1911 pricing is announced CMP 1911 pricing is announced CMP 1911 pricing is announced  
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All that can be said has been.. Now we wait. A simple thing has turned into a 4 page blog.. thank you all for your thoughts and opinions.

We're done here..
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