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02-20-2016, 12:54 AM
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A +P .380 question
Now, I know I may get flamed for asking this, but, is a Walther PPks rated for +P?
I found that Buffalo Bore makes a .380 100 gr +P hard cast solid which is no good in a Ruger LCP but maybe ok in the Walther?
It sounds like a good .380 load if so.
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02-20-2016, 01:25 PM
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There is no SAAMI spec for ".380+P" - so the ammo is overpressure .380 ammo, but the degree to which it is overpressure is not established. A maker like Buffalo Bore is probably not crazy about it, but I am not aware of any gun maker that would say, "Our gun is good-to-go with any overpressure ammo you can cram into the chamber." Which is what you're asking, since there is no recognized pressure standard for ".380 +P" - so, Walther's answer is going to be "No, our PPK/S is not rated for .380 +P."
(BTW, I have used Buffalo Bore ".380 +P" ammo in my locked-breech Ruger LCPs and keep it in one of them. Not recommending you or anyone else do the same, but the 95-gr FMJ loading gives me just south of 1100 fps from that tiny gun.)
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02-20-2016, 01:33 PM
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No semi auto is going to be rated by the manufacturer for +P .380
ammo because there is no such thing as +P .380 ammunition. There
are only four cartridges that are designated as +P and for which
industry standard pressure limits have been establishd. 38 special,
38 super, 9mm and .45 acp. These four have +P versions of the
standard pressure versions that are officially recognized and for which
industry standard pressure limits have been established.
You're going to see various comments regarding +P .380 ammo but
as of yet there's no such thing recognized by the firearms industry.
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02-20-2016, 01:46 PM
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WHY ?
You want more, go 9mm, want more, go .357 mag! Assuming you want to stay with the same bore size?
Of course there are gun size increases, muzzle blast increases, etc.
And then someone gets to post on the net stories and pictures of xyz destroyed, sometimes with blood and gore?
And maybe we can get everyone excited and discuss .38 special +P!
Different generations of firearms, different metallurgy, different bullet designs, makes the world go around! And the net gets to replay, over and over!
Want facts listen to Erich and alwslate !
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Last edited by walkinghorse; 02-20-2016 at 01:48 PM.
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02-20-2016, 01:59 PM
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There are only a few .380 autoloading pistols which are of locked breech design. Aside from those few exceptions, all .380s are blowback. The use of high pressure loads in a blowback pistol could cause serious damage due to high slide velocity. That's why (at least to my knowledge) there are no +P loadings made for the .380. I guess you could say much the same for the .32 ACP.
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02-21-2016, 11:52 AM
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All I know is that its sold and labeled as +P.
I have 9mm, .357s, etc. I also have an LCP which it states in the manual "no +P".
I have no manual on the Walther and its a much beefier gun compared to the LCP.
I just wanted to use the most effective ammo in the guns I have.
It sounds like it wouldn't be a great idea so I won't be buying any of it.
It does make me wonder why they even make it then?
Thanks for the replies.
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02-21-2016, 12:06 PM
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Both the Beretta Pico and the Kahr 380 are rated to accept 380 Plus P ammunition. States that in the owners manuals.
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02-21-2016, 12:49 PM
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A 380 is a 380: gee whiz ammo doesn't make it anything more.
I'm much more concerned with reliability than ballistic tables and photos of ballistic gel
Most owners of 380's don't shoot them enough to develop great skill.
You're better off using lots of ball ammo - for practice and sd - than hoping some gee whiz ammo will make up for the shooter's more modest skill and the great liklihood that the shooter hasn't shot enough rounds of the gee whiz stuff to determine its reliability and develop much skill with it.
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02-21-2016, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt
There are only a few .380 autoloading pistols which are of locked breech design. Aside from those few exceptions, all .380s are blowback. The use of high pressure loads in a blowback pistol could cause serious damage due to high slide velocity. That's why (at least to my knowledge) there are no +P loadings made for the .380. I guess you could say much the same for the .32 ACP.
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And the ppks is a blowback design. Personally I wouldn't use anything called +p in any blowback pistol. You are relying on the slide mass and recoil spring only. The action is not "locked" when firing, the very least problem would be your pistol being battered to death. Worse case scenario, slide leaving frame and hitting the shooter in the head, or out of battery ignition, the list of possible failures goes on and on...just not worth it.
That being said, I personally DO shoot and carry BB+p .380 in my Ruger,Colts, Glock, and other locked breach designs.
Last edited by keninnavarre; 02-21-2016 at 12:51 PM.
Reason: Auto correct gone bad....
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02-21-2016, 02:12 PM
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As I think has been previously stated, SAAMI has no +P peak chamber pressure specification for the .380. If Buffalo Bore states it is selling a +P load, it is not following SAAMI peak chamber pressure standards for that caliber. There is nothing illegal about doing that, as SAAMI specs are voluntary, but I'd think BB could have legal liability if someone gets hurt while using that ammunition. Does anyone know what chamber pressure the BB +P .380 load operates at?
My theory. Most major ammunition manufacturers always load their ammunition to peak chamber pressures somewhat below the SAAMI-established maximum. BB is probably just pushing the envelope by loading closer to the upper limit of the SAAMI mean average pressure (21,500 psi) than the other ammo makers, and simply calling it a +P load for advertising purposes.
Last edited by DWalt; 02-21-2016 at 02:19 PM.
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02-21-2016, 04:23 PM
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Where's member SaxonPig when you need him!
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02-21-2016, 06:07 PM
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I've contacted BB requesting their chamber pressures for the different .380 +P loads. Ill report what I find out.
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02-21-2016, 06:34 PM
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As I recall from the final results of the Shooting the Bull .380 tests the BB didn't even make the top group. He found almost any XTP round did a better job. I just re-watched the test and the reason he failed the BB round is it penetrated 45" in ballistic gel. Why would you want a SD round that over penetrates to that extent?
Last edited by Florida J Frame; 02-21-2016 at 06:47 PM.
Reason: additional info
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02-21-2016, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florida J Frame
As I recall from the final results of the Shooting the Bull .380 tests the BB didn't even make the top group. He found almost any XTP round did a better job. I just re-watched the test and the reason he failed the BB round is it penetrated 45" in ballistic gel. Why would you want a SD round that over penetrates to that extent?
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02-21-2016, 07:44 PM
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Every time I hear the term ".380 +p" it I think of jumbo shrimp.
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02-21-2016, 07:54 PM
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Check Lehigh's Xtreme Penetrator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessie
All I know is that its sold and labeled as +P.
I have 9mm, .357s, etc. I also have an LCP which it states in the manual "no +P".
I have no manual on the Walther and its a much beefier gun compared to the LCP.
I just wanted to use the most effective ammo in the guns I have.
It sounds like it wouldn't be a great idea so I won't be buying any of it.
It does make me wonder why they even make it then?
Thanks for the replies.
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Check out "Shooting the Bull" video about Lehigh's 380 90r. Extreme Penetrator. The bullet resembles a Philips head screwdriver! After watching the video you decide. I have it loaded in my Sig P232 as a desk mounted pistol. I carry a Shield 9 with
Federal's HST ammo.
That BB 380 is interesting.
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02-21-2016, 07:55 PM
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Designed in Europe
The Walther PP series guns were designed to function with European ammo. Their ammo is loaded a bit HOTTER than domestic ammo. You might call it: +P-1/2. This normally isn't a problem except that European 380s seem to run more reliably when fed European made ammo. Wonder why?
I've owned two PPK/s's, a European one and a domestically made gun. Both lacked the level of reliability needed to stake your life on them.
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02-21-2016, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich
Sasquatch.
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02-21-2016, 08:35 PM
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I believe S&W says that my M&P .380 is okay w/+P but since there is no +P standard I'll give it a pass. HPR hollow points cycle perfectly and offer all the performance you're likely to get for this small pistol. I carry mine b/c it's easy to slip into a pocket, it's reliable, accurate and I'm too lazy to pack anything bigger.
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02-21-2016, 09:10 PM
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Went to the Buffalo Bore site and WOW pretty pricey if you ask me.
Think I'll just stick to the cheap stuff and just shoot twice.
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02-21-2016, 09:34 PM
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I had a LCP, and used the BB 100 gr +P in it. I found it was pretty snappy in an already snappy gun, but with a Wolff recoil spring shooters pack I got to a sweet spot that allowed the use of standard pressure for practice while allowing the use of the BB with slightly better results. IIRC, the spring was changed from a 9# stock to an 11#, and it functioned without fail with any ammo I tried.
But, like the man said, if you want more, getting a bigger gun is a more reliable way there. I walked into a deal on a SIG 938 that was to low to pass up, and while it isn't the pocket rocket the LCP is, it is a much better shooting gun. It even has real sights, which at my age I appreciate alot!
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02-21-2016, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER
Went to the Buffalo Bore site and WOW pretty pricey if you ask me.
Think I'll just stick to the cheap stuff and just shoot twice.
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Keep an eye on Freedom Munitions for a free shipping sale. Their 90 GR. XTP has the same specs as Hornady Custom for $15 / box of 50. Loaded with the same bullet. Cheap enough to practice with your carry ammo.
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02-22-2016, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florida J Frame
As I recall from the final results of the Shooting the Bull .380 tests the BB didn't even make the top group. He found almost any XTP round did a better job. I just re-watched the test and the reason he failed the BB round is it penetrated 45" in ballistic gel. Why would you want a SD round that over penetrates to that extent?
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Shooting The Bull never tested the BB .380+p
During the test he specifically avoided +p ammo, for the same reason mentioned in this thread. No SAMMI specs.
Here's the link, +p is addressed in the comments at bottom of page.
And just for the record, the Buffalo Bore .380 standard pressure round penetrated 25 inches in bare gelatin, not 45 inches. .45 acp ball ammo doesn't even come close to 45 inches of gel penetration.
Final Results of the .380 ACP Ammo Quest | Shooting The Bull
Last edited by keninnavarre; 02-22-2016 at 09:29 AM.
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02-22-2016, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keninnavarre
Shooting The Bull never tested the BB .380+p
During the test he specifically avoided +p ammo, for the same reason mentioned in this thread. No SAMMI specs.
Here's the link, +p is addressed in the comments at bottom of page.
And just for the record, the Buffalo Bore .380 standard pressure round penetrated 25 inches in bare gelatin, not 45 inches. .45 acp ball ammo doesn't even come close to 45 inches of gel penetration.
Final Results of the .380 ACP Ammo Quest | Shooting The Bull
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Look again, he did test it. He fired it out of a 9mm because he didn't trust it. It penetrated 45 inches. Here's the link:
Last edited by Florida J Frame; 02-22-2016 at 02:18 PM.
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02-22-2016, 02:45 PM
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Florida J, that's a very entertaining video. Tim Sundles took the time to write his reasoning for the round on his website ( https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=127), which I will quote here:
The 380 auto inhabits a valuable and useful place in our society, mostly because of the easily concealable, tiny pistols chambered for it. HOWEVER, because of the very limited size of the cartridge, it is plagued with limited power and therefore most of the existing ammo in 380 auto suffers from not being reliable as a man-stopper. We've studied and played with nearly all of the existing available 380 ammo and find it wanting as a reliable means of self defense, especially against a large, insane, drugged up/pain free, determined attacker.
Here's the problem:
The current 380 auto frangible ammo delivers a large amount of surface trauma, but lacks serious penetration. For example, if you shot me or another sane man in the face with modern frangible 380 ammo, it would blow off a big portion of my cheek and send a few teeth down my throat, I would undoubtedly fall to the ground in shock and pain, but I would be very much alive and functional if I could get past the shock and pain as that frangible bullet would have stopped some where inside my face, never making it to my brain. However, if you shot a drugged up maniac in the face with that same frangible 380 ammo and blew half his cheek off, he would keep right on coming because he is insane and is not thinking like you or I. Plus, he is likely pain free and fear free and wont know that half his cheek is missing and if he did know, he would not care. So whatever 380 ammo you shoot him in the face with, had better go through his face and blow his brain stem out the back of his head, because only a CNS (central nervous system) hit with a 380 is going to stop him. Likewise, a torso hit to the sternum needs to penetrate deep enough to blow all the way through his spine in order to shut him down spontaneously. If you fail to shut him down instantly, you and your loved ones are going to have to find a way to survive while you wait for him to bleed out and pass out. The best chance of survival for you and your family is to shut down the attacker instantly. So, we've designed a few 380 auto +P loads to keep you and your loved ones alive under the worst of scenarios.
So, when I carried the .380 LCP, I opted for a round that would get through a big persons clothes, bones, and whatever else to get to the vitals. I found Sundle's reasoning on the failure potential of expanding ammo to be persuasive. YMMV, of course.
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02-22-2016, 03:57 PM
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I saw that and I understand his reasoning but I think 45" of penetration is a little overkill. I carry a .380 and don't feel under-gunned with modern XTP rounds. If I did, I think I would find a way to carry something bigger rather than taking a chance on a "hot rod" round like the .380 +P. I would also like to know what the chamber pressure is with this round. It seems to me that short of magic, the only way to get that much out of a .380 is to raise the chamber pressure. It's an interesting conversation that reminds us that a handgun is always a compromise.
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02-22-2016, 11:40 PM
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Florida J Frame, I stand corrected. I was going by my bookmarked link to the website, I didn't realize he went back and tried the BB +p .380 in a 9mm handgun. Interesting for sure.
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