About a month or so ago, I ended up buying a Sig Legion SAO. I've liked it a lot. The trigger is quite great, I love the X5 undercut, and I also like it much better than my tuned X5 Allround. I like this gun so much that it's my bedroom gun. Before, my idea of a bedside gun would be a plastic gun tailored for me that I wouldn't miss if the police took it. If I lived in a high crime area, I'd probably still do that. However, since I haven't had to use a gun in anger, I might as well get something I liked and be able to put 38 rounds of pain right where it's needed even if I'm hungover/groggy/sleepy/whatever.






Until that point, my favorite 9mm I had was my CZ75 SA tuned by Matt Mink from Automatic Accuracy. I've had the gun for about 8 years before I sent it out and I've regretted not sending it earlier. I've loved CZs for a while. I think if John Browning had lived another 20 years, that's the gun he would have made. It's like a modern Browning Hi Power with the same proportions and a proper length beavertail. I think this gun is probably the main reason I haven't bought a used Hi Power and sent it off for custom work.




So, the obvious thing that's required is a shoot out. A couple of things:

1) Both guns have lasers on them. I've got a TLR-4 on the Sig and Crimson Trace grips on the CZ. Something of note is getting the laser grips fit was part of the custom work. Dad wanted a set of laser grips. Of all the guns, the CZ had the worst sights and we decided the CZ should get them. You cannot use Laser Grips on a CZ with an Ambi safety because that's where the laser light goes. You also can't pull off one side of the safety because the fire control group starts wiggling around and makes the gun unsafe. To fix that, Mink fashioned a spacer from another ambi safety.

2) I didn't use the lasers for this test because I don't have the laser sighted in on the Sig. It's close enough that it can provide "minute of bad-guy" in the middle of the night, but that's about all.

So let's get to it.

1) Cost.

I'm not counting the laser grips in this. Dad likes it, but I'd be just as happy without them. This also will affect another score later on.

The Sig is pretty easy to figure out. Sticker is about $1,400. Street price is more like $10-1,100.

The CZ is practically spec'd like this:

http://czcustom.com/new-firear...ow-sa-black-9mm.html

The difference with mine is a 13# mainspring and an extended firing pin for a lighter trigger pull and will ignite anything in 9mm. Personally, if you do get any custom CZ, spend the extra $40 to get the firing pin. You will not regret it.

Winner: CZ. Simple math. $1100 vs $850.

2) Triggers.

I was very skeptical about the Legion SAO trigger. I had no doubts that the mechanics would feel great, but I was VERY disappointed that the X5-style trigger was replaced with the one in all the units. Most of that angst was from the factory trigger in the CZ75 SA. The newer ones are better, but the older ones like mine had more of a forward angle with a slight bend in the middle of the trigger. The result was a trigger that your finger would slip up and down. You couldn't get a consistent trigger pull because it always changed depending where your finger ended up. And I thought the Legion was going to repeat this mistake.

Thankfully, it couldn't be farther from the truth and I could not be happier. Even though the trigger has a forward angle to it, it's a flat angle. There's no bend to it. When you pull it to the break, it's a flat 90 degrees. Speaking of the break, it's a fantastic wall that's as almost as good as some of the nicer 1911s. In addition, the reset is one of the best I've used. I will call Sig a flat out LIAR by saying this is a 5# trigger. My Springfield Professional has a 5# trigger and it's much heavier. My 4# trigger from my Les Baer Monolith is heavier. This thing is a 3.5# at MOST. I'm not complaining about it. If you're going to fib, it's always better to underpay and overdeliver and Sig did it almost perfectly.

Almost. If you could stand to watch Colion Noir's review of the gun and sit through 6 minutes of pontification about the gun being a "Tactical Dragqueen" and all that ****, there is one thing I will agree with him about. Compared to the tank-like build and luxury-car finish, it does feel flimsy. It doesn't wiggle or bend, but it's very thin and narrow.

My Custom CZ was almost transformed into a completely different gun, and most of it is in the trigger. Mine has the flat CZ Custom SAO trigger, and there's nothing remotely close to "flimsy" on this one. This is a flat piece of bar-stock that will outlive the cockroaches from the nuclear apocalypse, much less anything you can think of doing to it.

With the tuning that Matt did, this trigger is even lighter. I'm thinking between 2-3#. This is a competition trigger. There's not a lot of movement with the trigger, however the reset doesn't compare with the Sig. There's no difference between the reset on the trigger and the full trigger motion. Another downside is with a light trigger, there's very little wall. I don't know if it's a downside in the trigger mechanism itself compared to the newer Omega system or the fact the trigger is that light, but I prefer having a definite wall before the break.

In the perfect world, I'd have the Sig guts with the CZ trigger, but it is what is.

Winner: Sig

3) Sights.

We're on two different streets on this one. One thing I had to get over is I have really gotten use to tall 1911-style sights with a deep U-notch. Both of these are FAR smaller with nowhere near a .145 notch to line things up.

The Sig has the newer XRay sights and I love them. I can take or leave the tritium rears, but they stay in the background. Someone else will have to chime in on if the front sight has fiber optic material on the front or if it's luminescent paint like the Trijicon HDs. I can't tell, but I love them.





The stock CZ sights were deplorable. I didn't mind the 3 dot luminescent sights, but the dots were SO small and the sights were SO small they might as well be blackout sights. The ones I have on now are a bit better. It's a CZ fiber front with CZ Tactical Rear sight.




They're better, but I don't like how shallow the notch is. The Sig sights are about as high as the CZ, and you have a much deeper notch to place the sights. I don't think CZ Custom has made a deeper sight. They will mill the slide to a Novak cut, but that is not cheap and would also add unnecessary cost to the gun when they can cut the sight deeper.

Winner: Sig

4) Grip

I love what Sig has done with the Legion. My favorite feature of the X5 series was the undercut. It's what I love on my Wilson Combat. The control are nice and smooth. The checkering is fantastic.

I don't have a picture of the checkering under the trigger guard, but I love it and I love it exactly where it is. Some people have complained that the checkering doesn't come far enough back. I'm not one of them. My right middle finger would get so chapped and chewed up if it was that far back that I'd probably sell the gun. I like where it is forward because I shoot weak hand forward like competition shooters. I get plenty of grip and I can have my thumb either on the takedown lever or even farther on the rail and enjoy everything about it.

The grips are perfect. I like the E2 grip, but they're not aggressive enough. This things are probably the closest to checkered E2 grips and feel fantastic.

The CZ is no slouch. John Browning probably came up with the perfect grip when he made the Browning Hi Power. CZ made the gun feel even better. If Glock was smart enough to copy this grip in the 80's, he'd be even richer and nobody would hate Glocks. There's no other gun that fits the hand better than a CZ75.

There are some problems with this gun in regard to grip. Like I said above, Dad wanted some Laser Grips. I cannot stand them. I'm not a fan of rubber grips while there's some "checkering" on them, they are extremely slick. It might not be that if there was checkering on the gun, but there's no checkering. You can't checker CZs because there's not enough material. I love that the CZ Shadow 2 has had more material added like on the Tanfoglios, and I'm also eager to play with one because it fixes every problem I have with this gun. In the meantime, I also want to throw some aggressive G10s on this gun.

I don't like it, but I'm going to call it.

Winner: Tie. The way it's set right now would be a win for the Sig, but the CZ isn't setup the way I want it. It can be better, but I don't know how much.

5) Accuracy.

Here's the bit that some like and some don't. I'm also going to leave this unscored. The first two are from the Sig, the last one is from the CZ.





What I will say is with the current setup, the Sig will be more repeatable and help you get better. Right now, the CZ has a lot of potential. I really want to get some more aggressive grips. Right now, the CZ is the faster gun to shoot. It has a very flat recoil and I can get some serious speed. I know everyone harps on the Sig's high bore axis, but with the standard Sig length, the gun is very well balanced and returns to where you left it. I like it more than my 5" X5 I sold because at that length it does get flippy.

Overall Winner: Sig The big thing overall is I love the Sig straight from the box. It's as perfect as a gun can get, and the trigger's "flimsyness" is only flimsy compared to the trigger of the CZ.

What I'm very interested in seeing is if CZ does a Shadow 2 SAO. The price gap will shrink dramatically, but I can't see how the Shadow 2 won't be better than my 10 year old CZ.

As an aside, does any of the Tanfoglio higher end models use the small frame like the CZs, or are they all the large frame like the lower end ones?

My bedside handgun choice has evolved from 4" to a 3" 686+ to a CZ 75B, but I consider these for close-quarters only, where a sight picture is less important, and point shooting is what I practice for. If the threat is more than 3 seconds away, then my 12ga is the choice.
I'm shopping for a compact CZ 75D PCR as a combined bedside and around-the-house carry, as I'd rather not have a safety for the SD purpose.

Generally speaking, my CZ and SIG inspire the most confidence of the bottom feeders.

Bed side gun same as carry gun same as range gun. One gun, one thing to be familiar with and guns don't know the difference what they're being used for or in. Saves money which in turn goes to ammo

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Well....? Which is your favorite choice?

Since I own a 228 I'm more familiar with Sigs so that would be it but based on your 2 specific guns.....neither

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That's similar to the 75D PCR I'm looking for, although it might be tough for me to conceal carry except in winter or in my holster purse.

Why isn't there a Legion Series Sig in .45 ACP?

It's coming. I've heard Summer and Fall, but it was shown off at SHOT Show this year and will arrive later this year.




http://www.osagecountyguns.com/blog/...legion-series/

I might could end up with a P220 SAO Legion later on. No word yet on a P227 Legion or if/when the Legions will go to Stainless models or not.

I think when you get to this level of gun it is all about individual ergonomics and subjective choices. Put either gun in a Ransom rest and they will out shoot the shooter 99.9% of the time in terms of accuracy. The interaction between the shooter and the gun = ergonomics is subjective.

Grip, sights and off hand accuracy are all subjective. Conclusions will change based on the shooter. For example I had an early CZ custom shop 75B which I sold years ago because it just did not fit me. I am a huge BHP fan and it fits me perfectly the CZ does not especially in DA/SA mode. I sold it to someone who it hopefully fit better. For you the CZ is very BHP like for me they are almost nothing alike except that they are both 9mm and share the JMB lock breech and a few other characteristics. For me they shoot entirely differently. YMMV

It did not make the 75B a bad gun just not the gun for me. Your review and comparison was a good read but too much subjective criteria for me to draw any conclusions from it.

I do like the Legion packages and think that they constitute a good value when you look at the factory upgrade they provide vs having them done on a standard base gun. I have been looking at the P226 SAO and the DA/SA version. A P220 Legion would also be interesting. However, there is something about a custom one of a kind gun made exactly as you want it. For me the a Legion will have to wait because I have to pay for my latest BHP custom which should be shipping from Mr. Garthwaite in a few months. Why Do You Think I am Paying You if Not to Have My Way?” -Charles Portis

In order to get a BHP where I want it, I'd be spending about $2K on custom work. I've got to finish paying off getting 3 trees removed and some custom work on a Springfield Professional. The CZ gets me just about where I'd want a Hi Power. The Nighthawk Hi Power gets me excited for some future custom hope, but I don't need a stippled slide, a french border, or a beavertail the size of a log splitter (just a bit longer than stock).

The Chuck Warner Hi Power project looks interesting with custom frames that can take checkering, but I've not heard good things about the man and the 1 person that bought one disappeared from 1911forum with all the pictures.

roll that beautiful Hi Power footage,

Here is my Novak Hi Power, I love it, is the most accurate 9mm I have. I can group center shots within mm of each other. It is almost like shooting a rifle. I was shocked to see Nighthawk start making 9mm customs. I am having them work over my Colt NMGC trophy and saw that they are doing them. I talked with Mr. Graithwaite but maybe it was me or him wanting to focus on his natural NorthEast market but I was not impressed at all.

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I hear you so many guns so little money. LOL

The Nighthawk seems weird to me. I really don't like the stippling on the top of the slide. There is something about the overall look of the gun I do not like but I cannot put mu finger on it. I am also turned off by the price. I am not a big fan of beavertails on BHPs. I do own one but I bought it already customized and I actually like the feel of it a lot. I don't know if I would do one again but I was surprised how good it felt in the hand. The gun was worked on by Bob Cogan.







I also have not heard good things about Chuck Warner and would be worried about giving him money for a custom job and his ability to support a gun build from the ground up in the future.

I am not sure what the knock is on Nighthawk, they are close to me and yes I own a Nighthawk 1911. They are perhaps the best 1911 shop in the Nation if not the world. Started by former Wilson combat employees, they are legit and I will be touring their facility soon.

If you can get a Nighthawk anything then you can be assured it was made by craftsmen. One smith one gun, is their motto. They are about the only shop that you can say makes truly custom pieces. Not many other shops can touch what they do.

Novak does great work. I have a BHP which they worked on years ago.



It is a shame that you and Mr. Garthwaite did not click. He is a world class smith who builds fantastic 1911s and it one of the BHPs gurus IMHO. He is extremely busy and it took me a long time to get a slot for him to build my pistol. He wait times are long but not as long as John Harrison, which is 5 years to get a full house custom.

Mr. Garthwaite, Mr. Yost and Don Williams are my holy trinity of BHP smiths. I am 2/3s of the way there. I have Williams Alloy FN Hi Power and Mr. Garthwaite is working on a pistol for me now.

This is the Williams BHP.

That's beautiful, but I think at the minimum on that one, I'd need a different hammer. I'm one of those sad people that gets bit between the grip tang and the hammer. I am happier that there seems to be more hammers out there that are fully cocked while the meat of the hammer stays above the grip tang. I think I can get away with that without a longer beavertail like the one VWSig has (which is beautiful).

Thankfully, I'm done with the 1911s. Here's the last family picture I did:



I do need to do a better, more up to date one. That Wilson I've had for over 10 years and it STILL feels like the slide is on ball bearings. The SA Pro has been upgraded with Wilson Tritium Battlesights that will be pried from my cold dead hands. I'd almost consider being buried with it and a box of Ranger Ts or HSTs if I was a total psychopath.

The Les Baer Monolith Comanche was traded whole to a dealer friend for a brand new Dan Wesson VBOB Duty Treat. It was what I wanted out of the box and serves the same purpose as my CZ. It's almost a custom 1911 for quite a bit less, and better than any other factory 1911. Only possible 1911 I'm looking for now is a 9mm, and only assuming the new P210 turns out to be ****.

It's in the ballpark for what it is. They pretty much dreamed up everything they can possibly put on a Hi Power and made that. The only thing I can think of they didn't do was mill for an RMR. They're starting to get to dealers, and here's one of the pics:



Gunsamerica also did more of a breakdown during the build.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/nig...hot-show-2016/

Honestly I think it is overpriced but maybe it is because I would leave off some of the features. It is just a off the shelf custom MKIII. If you take into consideration the cost of a NIB base gun at $900 that leaves $2000 for custom work. There is a lot in that package but they left a few things on the table. They are not replacing the barrel with a KKM which is not necessary but at the $3000 level a lot of people will. They are also not tightening or welding up the slide for smoother function and accuracy. It is just a personal thing about the guns aesthetics that I do not like. I am not a huge Nighthawk 1911 fan either so it might just be a person bias. LOL

If I was going to pony up $2800 for a BHP I would want it to be truly custom. I would want it only to have the parts and the configuration I want not what Nighthawk spec'd out. My Don Williams Alloy Hi Power cost me about $1200 less and my Garthwaite MKIII will cost almost $1000 less. I did use used guns for these builds. You can only get an alloy BHP used and the MKIII Garthwaite has was LNIB and I got it for a solid price so that accounts for some of the cost difference but not a ton.

It will be interesting to see how they sell.

Most if not all of what these guys start with are low rung BHPs. They are not even Browning's per se but FN models that are mass produced sold on the cheap and then customized to make them a 3-4-5 grand piece. My BHP started out as a target sighted BHP Practical in 9mm that I picked up at a gun show. I sent it to Novak's for a trigger job, reliability package and fiber optic front sight. I am not a big fan of the hollow hammers on BHPs which is why I did not do it. They took a gun that was accurate to begin with and made it deadly accurate.

I am a big fan of Novak, Nighthawk and Wilson work. I believe the better the gun you start out with the better the gun you end up with. Those 3 grand FN Hi Powers are nothing more than a pig dressed up trying to be a supermodel.

Color me confused but what is a low rung BHP? All Browning Hi Powers are made by FN but not all Hi Powers are Browning roll marked. Browning is the US importer of Hi Powers and they use the Browning rollmark. The rest of the world uses FN rollmarks.

FN models are the same as Browning models but they have different rollmarks. They are produced in the same Herstal plant and assembled in the same plant in Portugal.

Individuals often by base guns used much cheaper than new and use them for custom work. I certainly do but most of the known BHP smiths like C&S, Novak, Don Williams, Garthwaite, Yost etc ask you to send in your based gun and your gun is built to order. It is about as bespoke at is gets. So I am not sure who "these guys" are.

Nighthawk however seems to be using NIB MKIIIs as base guns so they are not buying them on the cheap. They are buying quality NIB Browning HI Powers produced by FN.

Now in I am not sure why you are calling bespoke BHPs which are often functional works of art pigs dressed up as supermodels. You might not see value but certainly other people do.

I would not call this a pig. YMMV



PS sorry for the thread drift.

these were the ones I was talking about

FN Belgium MK 3 Hi Power 9mm Pistol

can not tell you how many 200-500 dollar FNs ended up as custom house guns for large amounts of money. I know several houses did them as I saw the finished products.

I am not sure where the contract guns are made, but come on do you want a custom house package put on a gun like that?

But it's my thread. And anyway, that's one of the reasons I like the Nighthawk. While I could care less if it's rollmarked FN or Browning, I am concerned getting a used clone and having to spend money junking bad and/or substandard parts before starting on what I really want.

Now, if Nighthawk would drop some features for a lower price, I'd buy one and go through layaway. As it is, if I find a used one, I'll jump it like it's hot. Almost every custom I see on Gunbroker, the buyer wants some ludicrous price.

That Legion is sweet, I would not mind buying it just for the ability to get into the Sig backdoor site. That would be the sweetest part of it. I assuming you got the coin and case as well.

This does not make sense to me. Nighthawk is buying a complete gun from Browning/FN and scrapping the fire controls, the sights etc... They are literally throwing away NIB parts. If the frame, slide and barrel are in excellent to condition on a Browning/FN pistol not a clone who cares about the other parts. If you are going bespoke custom you are getting rid of all of them anyway.

Plus if they are factory Browning/FN parts they are not bad parts. They are not junk. Not every BHP needs to be a custom. I keep my take off parts because you never know when you might need a factory sear for a stock BHP in the safe.

You seem to be confused as to the quality and origin of Browning/FN parts. There are clones out there as well but when it comes to the genuine article they are pretty good. Its kind of like taking a stock Colt Govt and sending it to Yost. It is just a different philosophy to achieve a custom pistol.

If you like the Nighthawk semi custom off the shelf approach awesome. I would give them a call and see if they can make a custom BHP for you. From what I have heard they will not. They are basically making this one configuration.

^ Nighthawk does custom work on 1911s then I am sure they will on the BHP as well. I will let you know for sure when I do the complete tour of their facilities and drop off my 1911.

No customization of the BHP from Nighthawk. You can change the color of the Cera Kote and you can choose from wood or VZ grips. They are using new MKIIIs from Browning/FN for the base gun. This was verified by a simply phone call to their sales department. No tour necessary.

funny, I bet I could get them to do one for me.

stick with Graithwaite, you sound like his type of guy.

Yeah maybe they make exceptions for "special" people. I find it absurd that you are actually bad mouthing Mr. Garthwaite and you can't even spell his name correctly. He is a very easy to work with. Talked with him today about how to proceed with my current build. It was a pleasure.

Good for you, I could care less about that guy and his business I am sure he just loves the northeastern peps. I live like a few hours away from Nighthawk. So it is not a big deal to me, I have a lot better shop just a few hours a way so I don't have to deal with peps like that or his attitude. Just came off to me like he had more than enough business and acted liked he did not want to do it. So I sent it to Novaks and I have sold every Novaks piece for as much as or more than what I paid for it. Not sure if you could do that with his shop. Not saying you could not but more than likely probably not.

Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool vs opening your mouth and removing all doubt. LOL

Ask the guys at Novak what they think of Mr. Garthwaite. Ask the guys at Nighthawk. He is on the APG board of directors, he was 2004 pistolsmith of the year. He has been building 1911s and BHPs since the late 70s and you are really badmouthing him?

You remind me of school in summer time. No class.... Maybe there is a reason he did not take your job. Nighthawk makes a nice pistol. They are not my style but they are excellent guns. I guess that is the difference between you and me. I can still respect someone whose work I would not necessarily purchase myself. I also understand that one man shops like Yost, Garthwaite, Williams and Harrison have long waiting lists because they are good at what they do. They are not multiple smith production shops like Les Baer, Wilson, Guncrafters, Novak, Nighthawk etc... but they bring something to the table. They are true bespoke pistol craftsman that make one gun at a time. They have more work than they can handle but they take pride in being the only one to work on every pistol that leaves their shop.

Clearly that is not your bag which is fine but why bad mouth a well respected smith?

PS I am not located in the NE LOL.

Did I bad mouth him, I just told you that he did not want to do work for me. I could care less if he founded the APG (whatever that is), He has his business, and he did not want to do my pistol. I could care less the reasons or why, maybe he was busy or just woke up on the wrong side of the bed. I will never call him, and ask him to do anything to any of my guns anytime ever. So, all you BS about removing all doubt or whatever is just well, stupid. He is not the be all end all as far as custom guns. Lots of shops out there do good work.

I am lucky to have Wilson and Nighthawk customs close by. I enjoy the gun collecting hobby and information. However, I am opinionated and sometimes that comes through. I meant no disrespect to his work or his shop. He has a business, and he can run it like he wants just like Novak's is not taking in any more 1911s at the current time. They have their business and it is enough to make them a set number of money and they want no more. No sweat off me, I would rather do business closer to me anyway.

and as far as one pistol, one smith. Nighthawk does that and every gun that leaves their shop has a certification letter from that smith.

Good Luck with your pistols.

And I'm fine with that. I'd prefer it more if they made their own slides/frames, but they're sticking their necks out a little bit and testing the water.

For Browning/FN, I'm less concerned. From a clone, I'm less sure. What I'd really prefer is Browning to do a few things to modernize the Hi Power so I wouldn't need to do a ton of custom work to it. If I send a gun out, I'd prefer a gunsmith to do some fine tuning instead of a full redo.

Plus if they are factory Browning/FN parts they are not bad parts. They are not junk. Not every BHP needs to be a custom. I keep my take off parts because you never know when you might need a factory sear for a stock BHP in the safe.

They won't right now. According to the Nighhawk Rep on 1911forum, they're focused on getting this initial order finished and see how they do. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Hopefully it works out for them and the line expands. Until then, I can wait.