Nighthawk Custom/Korth revolvers

JJEH · #1 05-21-2016, 11:06 AM

I didn't want to hi-jack the current thread New Smith & Wesson Revolvers so I started a new one.

While I do agree that S&W revolvers are the best for the money in the current market, I also think that quality wise they might get under fire with the Nighthawk/Korth partnership.

Korth & Nighthawk Revolvers

I'm not a potential customer but I do think that they will sell a bunch of them.

They will probably become collector items and spend most of their time in a humidity controlled safe.

Their MONGOOSE .357 looks okay but - not to bash their product/s - I rather have a 627.

flintsghost · #2 05-21-2016, 11:10 AM

Korth is a German company that made a revolver with a safety on it at one time. They are supposed to be very high quality but I've only read about them and never seen one. At the time I read articles about them in the 60's, they were also very expensive. They emphasize "hand made" but everyone should keep in mind that virtually all of the high quality revolvers were "hand made" and hand fitted, including Smith & Wesson.

OLDSTER · #3 05-21-2016, 11:57 AM

Korth(German) and Manurhin(French). Would love to have one of each. But then for the cost, I could expand my Makarov pistol or S&W revolver collections by a BUNCH !!

JJEH · #4 05-21-2016, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayBird

...But then for the cost, I could expand my [...] S&W revolver collections by a BUNCH !!

Exactly my thought.

hkcavalier · #5 05-21-2016, 12:49 PM

For $3500 that ill-fitting Hogue seems out of place. Like vinyl seats in a Rolls-Royce.

JJEH · #6 05-21-2016, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkcavalier

For $3500 that ill-fitting Hogue seems out of place. Like vinyl seats in a Rolls-Royce.

Now after you mentioning it... you are right. For $3.5k you should get some super fancy exotic wood from the dark side of the moon...

shouldazagged · #7 05-21-2016, 05:01 PM

I can't imagine revolvers that expensive making much impact on S&W sales figures, much less putting the company "under fire".

Quality may be sublime, but the price tag...

Leonard · #8 05-21-2016, 05:14 PM

I have spent that much on custom single action colts, smiths, and 1911's but the Korth's have never appealed to me, I think its the lines reminds of Dan Wesson's .

g8rb8 · #9 05-21-2016, 05:40 PM

I inspected, handled, and dry fired the below Korth model made in 1964 (not actual revolver in photo) a few months ago and it had the absolute wurst* action and trigger pull of any revolver I had ever handled and I could not convince myself it was defective or had a problem. Realizing it was a rare revolver (under 500 made) I went back to look at it again. I tried to trouble-shoot if there were any problems and convinced myself there weren't and then understood why they sold less than 500, i.e. the *wurst action I'd experienced. It ended up auctioning for over $1k. Hopefully the new owner is developing a strong trigger finger and their Korth is appreciating. The newer ones look really nice and I suspect they function well so Korth fans please take no offense.
*wurst - hey, it's German.

RJJ 1971 · #10 05-21-2016, 08:36 PM

That 9mm 2" or 3" looks sharp.

Andyd · #11 05-22-2016, 12:03 AM

First off, Korth never built a revolver with a manual safety, they only have a a drop safety. Korth built the first cartridge revolvers in 1964 to fill an order of the Hamburg port police but by the time he had the guns finished the police had already ordered .32 ACP pistols and the guns were liquidated on the civilian market.

The Korth action was refined over the years and needed from 1964 to 1969 to arrive at its peak with exchangeable rollers ontop of the trigger that changed DA let-off and also incorporating a screw that allowed the trigger weight to be adjusted from the outside.

I have Korth revolvers made in Ratzeburg, the town where Willi Korth started out manufacturing his finely finished revolvers and personally do not find an interest inthe current Korth product line. The Korth revolvers from Lollar share several advantages of the origina Korth design, like the roller sear and chambers that got smoothened out by a roller being pushed into it and giving a glassy smooth finish that makes ejection of particularly rimfire cartridges a whole lot easier than on my 1952 vintage K-22.

In repsonse to an earlier post by g8rb8 I also want to point out that my 1964 manufactured police revolver displays outstanding quality and an action that easily measures up to my 1961 Colt OMM and is not far behind my 1972 Python.

It puzzles me that folks always believe Korth revolvers to be only owned by collectors and not shooters, while equally expensive higher end 1911 customs guns are attributed to shooters. In Germany, where Korth revolvers have enjoyed a good reputation since their inception they are still common on gun ranges, as well as at matches and get carried by hunters.

OLDSTER · #12 05-22-2016, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andyd

First off, Korth never built a revolver with a manual safety, they only have a a drop safety. Korth built the first cartridge revolvers in 1964 to fill an order of the Hamburg port police but by the time he had the guns finished the police had already ordered .32 ACP pistols and the guns were liquidated on the civilian market.

The Korth action was refined over the years and needed from 1964 to 1969 to arrive at its peak with exchangeable rollers ontop of the trigger that changed DA let-off and also incorporating a screw that allowed the trigger weight to be adjusted from the outside.

I have Korth revolvers made in Ratzeburg, the town where Willi Korth started out manufacturing his finely finished revolvers and personally do not find an interest inthe current Korth product line. The Korth revolvers from Lollar share several advantages of the origina Korth design, like the roller sear and chambers that got smoothened out by a roller being pushed into it and giving a glassy smooth finish that makes ejection of particularly rimfire cartridges a whole lot easier than on my 1952 vintage K-22.

In repsonse to an earlier post by g8rb8 I also want to point out that my 1964 manufactured police revolver displays outstanding quality and an action that easily measures up to my 1961 Colt OMM and is not far behind my 1972 Python.

It puzzles me that folks always believe Korth revolvers to be only owned by collectors and not shooters, while equally expensive higher end 1911 customs guns are attributed to shooters. In Germany, where Korth revolvers have enjoyed a good reputation since their inception they are still common on gun ranges, as well as at matches and get carried by hunters.

WOW!!

You're killin' me here !!

6string · #13 05-22-2016, 08:14 AM

I'd like to thank Andyd for setting the record straight on many Korth particulars. The observations on usage and function are especially appreciated.
To me, the Willi Korth era revolvers, specifically the 80s ones, were the cream of the crop. Personally, I don't care for these Nighthawk collaborative models.

Andyd · #14 05-22-2016, 09:26 AM

Thanks for the kind remarks, guys. I am a shooter that turned collector but I shoot all my guns and expect performance. I have a few Korts of my own and have shot a few more and enjoy them but the performance is not really well beyond what my K-22, M-14-2, Colt OMM or the Python can deliver but it is my personal preference and emotions are involved.

I was just casting some bullets and am getting ready to give my centerfires a mild work out

.

P.44 · #15 05-22-2016, 03:05 PM

Found a few photos for (especially the "older Ratzeburg revolver models") Korth fans (Sorry, to my deepest regret not mine revolvers). As can be seen in the pictures, these things get a bit used and shot:

I saw and handled "my first" Korth Revolver in 1974/75, one of the earlier "Dynamit Nobel" marked Combat 3" models in .357Magnum (as pictured above). Surely you can't really see the quality of the material, but I know "from the gun magazines" that they are made from steel forgings and hardened to 58 - 60 HRC (=harder than most knives!) and the craftsmanship was ...absolutely outstanding.

I am "more an advocate of the .44's", but if I 'll ever stumble over a nice early 3" Combat Korth in .357Magnum for a good price...hmm...

P.44

g8rb8 · #16 05-22-2016, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andyd

...........In repsonse to an earlier post by g8rb8 I also want to point out that my 1964 manufactured police revolver displays outstanding quality and an action that easily measures up to my 1961 Colt OMM and is not far behind my 1972 Python.
..........

Andyd,
Thanks for setting the record straight. Obviously there was something not right about the one I examined but with no similar example to compare and minimal to no information available at the time how was I to know? I remember it was extremely well made. You have a beautiful collection of Korth's. Please take no offense at my previous comments.

Andyd · #17 05-23-2016, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g8rb8

Andyd,
Thanks for setting the record straight. Obviously there was something not right about the one I examined but with no similar example to compare and minimal to no information available at the time how was I to know? I remember it was extremely well made. You have a beautiful collection of Korth's. Please take no offense at my previous comments.

No offense taken! There are a few issues that can come from poor maintenance and much more from ignorant "improvements".

I bought all of my Korths pre-owned and more than one had issues. One had the roller bearing removed by its previous owner and was filthy inside and dry, another had the front sight neatly filed down to shoot about 10 inches high. I cannot imagine that they left the factory like that!

The finish on the Korths from Ratzeburg is outstanding! Korth did not use a buffing wheel but sanding blocks and outsourced the bluing to a nearby company in Hamburg, the hardening was outsourced to the same company that does the hardening for SIG Sauer. Eckernförde is not far away from Ratzeburg and in the basement of SIG Sauer is the proof house where Korth had the revolvers proofed.

I want to share the story of my $400 Korth with you. I was in a gun store in Germany inspecting three Korths and buying two of them, when the owner told me that he had something for me and disappeared. He came back with a rusted up Korth without grips and the hammer frozen into cocked position and rounded the price up to where I paid about $400 for the .22 l.r Korth made in 1976. It turned out well with a little work and the grips that I had in my spare parts box.

It may not be the prettiest but it surely does shoot well.

6string · #18 05-23-2016, 01:29 AM

Andyd,
That's another good story that underscores your original point about utility. People really do shoot Korths, (and unfortunately, some actually abuse them, too!).
Same for Manhurin MR73s, original Neuhausen P210s, etc. But, maybe that's another thread!

Best regards,
Jim

Andyd · #19 05-23-2016, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6string

Andyd,
That's another good story that underscores your original point about utility. People really do shoot Korths, (and unfortunately, some actually abuse them, too!).
Same for Manhurin MR73s, original Neuhausen P210s, etc. But, maybe that's another thread!

Best regards,
Jim

Well, I kind of abused my P210-6. I shoot it quite a bit and thought the adjustable rear sight an improvement over the service-style fixed rear sights. Not that it leads to any consistent improvement in my scores, though, but it makes shooting easier when POA equals POI.

The adjustable rear sight is a two piece design and base and upper part are connected by a steel pin. Mine broke. It was a bear to remove the rest of the pin but eventually I had a hole drilled into the 1.93 mm pin to relieve the stress - freehand with a dental bit. I just hoped that I would not screw up the sight body since those sights rarely come up for sale and I have never seen them under $400.

Thank God it worked and I polished a 2mm drill bit to the proper size as a perfect replacement but I felt not too confident during the process. I also changed the front sight of the Korth Combat with the lowered front sight and drilled a 1.33 mm hole through the blade while it was in the barrel shroud and then pinned it back in place.

I rewarded myself with a beer - afterwards.

P.44 · #20 05-26-2016, 05:36 AM

Thanks to Andyd sharing his Korth collection, knowledge and stories with us ! And the
not so easy work (as described in post #19) for sure deserved a good beer...

Searched a few older cataloges and put in a few Korth (and Colt Ruger and S&W for price comparison) adds.
The oldest that I could find (1.pic) seems to be from 1966. If I remember correctly (from an other Korth thread) Jebus35745 is the proud owner of such an early .22lr Korth revolver.

P.44

Donn · #21 05-26-2016, 07:13 AM

Way above my pay grade.

6string · #22 05-26-2016, 08:21 AM

Hi P44,
Good info with that old catalog.
They must have had some heavy import duties on the American stuff!
If you've read Target Gun magazine, a now defunct (I think) publication from the UK, you'll see the same sort of thing.
Back in the 80s, they had ads for dealers and I remember seeing stuff that I really wanted, such as Sako Triace, SIG Hämmerli P240, etc. selling for comparable prices to, what I considered common everyday S&Ws, Colts, Rugers....
It is interesting to follow prices today on eGun.de, the European equivalent to gunbroker. Ownership is so heavily restricted that the demand is really only there for the high end stuff. Guys just can't accumulate, so they save their permit privileges for only a couple top notch pieces.

H Richard · #23 05-26-2016, 08:35 AM

I have shot both a Korth and a Manhurin. I wouldn't trade any of my S&W's for a Korth, but the Manhurin was a fine shooting piece.

P.44 · #24 05-29-2016, 06:44 AM

Hello 6string,
thanks for your kindly comments. Here in post #25
Lucky Find....early Andy Arratoonian (Horseshoe Leather) IPSC HOLSTER are a few
more prices (from 1984).

That

Quote:

(European) Ownership is so heavily restricted that the demand is really only there for
the high end stuff. Guys just can't accumulate, so they save their permit privileges
for only a couple top notch pieces.

is a very important, often overlooked / missed point: You -after a bit work / with a litle luck-
now have the money to buy 10, 20...Colts, S&W's...what's ever....
BUT YOU CAN ONLY GET THE PERMISSION TO BUY 2 (TWO) handguns...

At the Colt Forun Korth vs Python just runs
a "Korth vs Python" thread...

For the Korth fans:
Here ("KORTH USA" is still on-line) Korth-Waffen (Revolver)
(scroll down, then right ) you can find the "Owners Manual and product literature"
literature

For the Manurhin MR 73 fans:
Here (scroll down to "External links") you can download the "English
User Manual" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manurhin_MR_73

I think, alone the unique "rebound system" is worth a look...

P.44

6string · #25 05-29-2016, 08:23 AM

Hey P.44,

Some great links, there!
The Python vs. Korth argument was inevitable, I guess!

Here's a couple good essays by Michael Zeleny:
french and german revolvers for sport and social work - larvatus prodeo

korth revolvers redux - larvatus prodeo

Michael is very knowledgeable about Korths, MR73s, and SIG Neuhausen P210s. What he writes about is generally borne out of his experience and research.
I think some of his comments will possibly raise a few eyebrows. But, his logic is sound and his opinions are worth serious consideration.
Anyone contemplating making the investment in any one of these fine arms will likely find the information quite helpful.

Best Regards,
Jim

PS: I can include P210 links if anyone wants them. Don't want to stray too far of the OP Korth theme!
(PPS: Hope my Zeleny links aren't redundant given the references in the Colt forum thread-link!)

Andyd · #26 05-29-2016, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.44

....what's ever....
BUT YOU CAN ONLY GET THE PERMISSION TO BUY 2 (TWO) handguns...

That may be so for the average guy but if you are successful at competitions, that standard rule does not apply. I had enough luck and was successful enough at competitions to own eight handguns on the green WBK and had licenses in all colours, green, yellow, and several red ones.

Grayfox · #27 05-29-2016, 11:03 AM

Some years ago I had the opportunity to shoot a Korth. The fit and finish were outstanding and the action was superb. I was impressed.
However, I look at Korth pretty much as I do the very expensive top end 1911s. Great workmanship, beautiful to look at and there is a certain pride in ownership. But very few shooters are skilled enough to take full advantage of them. I sure ain't one of 'em. So, for me at least, the extra cost is just wasted money. I'm much better off buying the plain models that I can shoot reasonably well.

As for these NightHawk versions, first thing I noticed was that they moved the cylinder release. Makes me wonder what other corners they cut.

Jebus35745 · #28 05-31-2016, 11:24 AM

Gotta love the Korth, the fit, finish and accuracy is great. Went to Tulsa for the first time and sold mine there. Figured Tulsa was the place to sell the gun. It was a .22 made in the 60's. I enjoyed shooting it and was glad I owned it. As said above, it shot way better then I could shoot it. I shoot off hand double action most of the time and the Korth was shooting the same as the Smiths I own. Shooting it single action made me look like I could shoot. It sold to a person that could get the accuracy out of it that it was capable of. I kinda miss it and will never see one for sale for what I paid. I have a Manurhin MR73 4" with target sights getting a high gloss blue job to make it look like it did when it was new. I shoot the MR 73 better then I did the Korth.

Nice guns, if I hit the lottery, I'll buy one from GB in .357. Larry

Freischütz · #29 05-31-2016, 01:29 PM

What were the Brünner revolvers? The picture makes me think of a Colt Officers Model Target.