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Old 05-23-2016, 10:55 PM
Me239 Me239 is offline
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Does a Vintage Carry Pistol Stand up to Today's Pistols? Does a Vintage Carry Pistol Stand up to Today's Pistols? Does a Vintage Carry Pistol Stand up to Today's Pistols? Does a Vintage Carry Pistol Stand up to Today's Pistols? Does a Vintage Carry Pistol Stand up to Today's Pistols?  
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Default Does a Vintage Carry Pistol Stand up to Today's Pistols?

A little while back, I saw a post on another forum asking how turn of the century pocket pistols would compare to the recent surge in popularity of pocket pistols. The two pistols in question are the FN 1910, chambered in both .32 and .380 ACP, and the Kahr CM40, chambered in .40 S&W. Perhaps a better comparison would have been against the CW380/P380 (maybe even the CT380 due to the similar barrel length), but the CM40 is the closest I have.

Functionality:
From an engineering standpoint, the two handguns are worlds apart, the CM40 being a recoil system and the 1910 being a simple straight blowback. In the early 20th century, metallurgy was not what we had today, nor had the specific short recoil system used in the CM40 been invented, meaning pistols of the day were limited to lowered powered cartridges that could be handled by the simple blowback designs. The .380 ACP is right on the cusp of being the most powerful cartridge capable of being chambered in a blowback design, before we come up with a Hi Point C9. The first pistol of Browning's to fire the .380 was the Colt 1908, which in itself is an updated Colt 1903 simply modified to fire the larger .380 over the .32 ACP. When Browning designed the 1910 pistol, he engineered the weapon to be capable of switching calibers with simply a barrel swap as a way to cut down on manufacturing costs. The pistol itself is a robust, striker-fired, design ahead of its time and was to copied over the next century, the most prominent being using the barrel as the guide rod, a design that would be found later in pistols like the Walther PP/k, Makarov, and even today's Bersa Thunder series. The 1910 was also considered to be one of the safest pistols of the day, featuring 3 safeties, the grip safety, thumb safety, and magazine disconnect.

The Kahr CM40 is in a class of its own. As to my knowledge, the CM40 is the smallest .40 S&W handgun in production. Utilizing a double action striker, Browning style recoil system, and 3 dot sight system (a feature that has almost come to be expected from every manufacturer), the CM40 has the benefits of over 100 years of engineering and user feedback over the 1910. The CM40 is one of the value based offerings from Kahr and was born out of the CM9 by increasing its size ever so slightly to compensate for the added power of .40 S&W. Another benefit of the years is the polymer frame used on the Kahr, making it lighter than similar sized full steel pistols. Other than the fact that the CM40 is the smallest .40 S&W in production, it's design is similar to the polymer, striker-fired handguns that fill the market today.

Size:
The two pistols are nearly the same size, with the exception of the 1910 being slightly longer and noticeably thinner.

Specs for the 1910:
Weight: 20.8 Oz
Length: 6.02"
Width (my calipers): .775"
Height (my calipers): 3.9"
Barrel length: 3.5"
Capacity: 6+1 or 7+1 (.380 and .32 ACP respectively)

The CM40:
Weight: 15.8 Oz (empty)
Length: 5.47"
Width: .94"
Height: 4"
Barrel: 3.1"
Capacity: 5+1

Handling:
The 1910 is a sweet shooting pistol, for it's size, since all three fingers fit on the grip. If it were not for the steel frame, the recoil would drive the narrow frame into the web of your hand. The balance of the pistol is near perfect and points quite naturally, which is great due to the incredibly low profile sights. While it can be enjoyable to shoot, it is obviously meant to be carried and drawn easily as the profile is incredibly sleek and sights minimal.

The CM40 is a beast. Short and simple. The recoil in the CM40 is manageable enough for carry, but by no means a range toy. The two fingered grip with flush mags is minimal at most and the top heavy design means it handles a bit more clunky than the 1910. The design is sort of reminder that most carry guns today are chopped versions of their larger counterparts, the CM40 being the same.

Which should you carry?
This is obviously a question of opinion, but the facts can be laid out. The 1910 is a 116 year old design that's claim to fame is killing Franz Ferdinand and precipitating WW1. The CM40 on the other hand is a benchmark of contemporary handgun design, and has the added safety of a double action trigger pull. In my opinion, the one big flaw with the 1910 is the striker. The 1910 has a crisp single action trigger pull, but at a cost as there is also no firing pin block. The only thing holding the striker back from touching off the round (and the rest of the magazine) is the small sear engagement, and if it were to ever break, results would be disastrous. The Kahr on the other hand has a double action trigger pull meaning if it were to drop accidentally, it wouldn't have sufficient power to set the primer off, but ontop of that the firing pin block would have prevented the striker from ever touching the primer in the first place. It's actually sort of sad to me that the 1910 has that flaw as it has the unique characteristic of being built for concealed carry from the ground up, as opposed to what seems to be an attitude of "what's the largest caliber we can put in the smallest gun?". With all that said, I actually find myself carrying BOTH pistols at times. I think of my 1910 as a more ergonomic LCP with a longer barrel that can squeeze a bit more juice from the diminutive .380.

What do you guys think of carrying a vintage pistol for carry?
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Old 05-23-2016, 11:00 PM
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Well, I carry a 1911 so, yes. I'm all for it.
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Old 05-23-2016, 11:01 PM
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Most older handguns work just fine.

They often display craftsmanship that hasn't been seen in decades.

I enjoy being able to use classics: after all, my edc is a 1911.
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Old 05-23-2016, 11:59 PM
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Most older handguns work just fine.

They often display craftsmanship that hasn't been seen in decades.

I enjoy being able to use classics: after all, my edc is a 1911.
The 1911 and the Hi Power are the oldest designs I still see in use today. That said, the Commander sized 1911s are just cut down full size 1911s too I do like the recent efforts from companies like Kimber and their Solo, as well as Remington's failed, albeit appreciated, attempt at rebooting the model 51. I often think that a polymer framed 1910 or more faithful model 51 would sell like wild fire.
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:03 AM
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Awww
You're not looking to start a fight with this question...
hahaha


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Old 05-24-2016, 08:49 AM
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Awww
You're not looking to start a fight with this question...
hahaha. Chuck
Perish the thought!
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Me239 View Post
A little while back, I saw a post on another forum asking how turn of the century pocket pistols would compare to the recent surge in popularity of pocket pistols. The two pistols in question are the FN 1910, chambered in both .32 and .380 ACP, and the Kahr CM40, chambered in .40 S&W. Perhaps a better comparison would have been against the CW380/P380 (maybe even the CT380 due to the similar barrel length), but the CM40 is the closest I have.

Functionality:
From an engineering standpoint, the two handguns are worlds apart, the CM40 being a recoil system and the 1910 being a simple straight blowback. In the early 20th century, metallurgy was not what we had today, nor had the specific short recoil system used in the CM40 been invented, meaning pistols of the day were limited to lowered powered cartridges that could be handled by the simple blowback designs. The .380 ACP is right on the cusp of being the most powerful cartridge capable of being chambered in a blowback design, before we come up with a Hi Point C9. The first pistol of Browning's to fire the .380 was the Colt 1908, which in itself is an updated Colt 1903 simply modified to fire the larger .380 over the .32 ACP. When Browning designed the 1910 pistol, he engineered the weapon to be capable of switching calibers with simply a barrel swap as a way to cut down on manufacturing costs. The pistol itself is a robust, striker-fired, design ahead of its time and was to copied over the next century, the most prominent being using the barrel as the guide rod, a design that would be found later in pistols like the Walther PP/k, Makarov, and even today's Bersa Thunder series. The 1910 was also considered to be one of the safest pistols of the day, featuring 3 safeties, the grip safety, thumb safety, and magazine disconnect.

The Kahr CM40 is in a class of its own. As to my knowledge, the CM40 is the smallest .40 S&W handgun in production. Utilizing a double action striker, Browning style recoil system, and 3 dot sight system (a feature that has almost come to be expected from every manufacturer), the CM40 has the benefits of over 100 years of engineering and user feedback over the 1910. The CM40 is one of the value based offerings from Kahr and was born out of the CM9 by increasing its size ever so slightly to compensate for the added power of .40 S&W. Another benefit of the years is the polymer frame used on the Kahr, making it lighter than similar sized full steel pistols. Other than the fact that the CM40 is the smallest .40 S&W in production, it's design is similar to the polymer, striker-fired handguns that fill the market today.

Size:
The two pistols are nearly the same size, with the exception of the 1910 being slightly longer and noticeably thinner.

Specs for the 1910:
Weight: 20.8 Oz
Length: 6.02"
Width (my calipers): .775"
Height (my calipers): 3.9"
Barrel length: 3.5"
Capacity: 6+1 or 7+1 (.380 and .32 ACP respectively)

The CM40:
Weight: 15.8 Oz (empty)
Length: 5.47"
Width: .94"
Height: 4"
Barrel: 3.1"
Capacity: 5+1

Handling:
The 1910 is a sweet shooting pistol, for it's size, since all three fingers fit on the grip. If it were not for the steel frame, the recoil would drive the narrow frame into the web of your hand. The balance of the pistol is near perfect and points quite naturally, which is great due to the incredibly low profile sights. While it can be enjoyable to shoot, it is obviously meant to be carried and drawn easily as the profile is incredibly sleek and sights minimal.

The CM40 is a beast. Short and simple. The recoil in the CM40 is manageable enough for carry, but by no means a range toy. The two fingered grip with flush mags is minimal at most and the top heavy design means it handles a bit more clunky than the 1910. The design is sort of reminder that most carry guns today are chopped versions of their larger counterparts, the CM40 being the same.

Which should you carry?
This is obviously a question of opinion, but the facts can be laid out. The 1910 is a 116 year old design that's claim to fame is killing Franz Ferdinand and precipitating WW1. The CM40 on the other hand is a benchmark of contemporary handgun design, and has the added safety of a double action trigger pull. In my opinion, the one big flaw with the 1910 is the striker. The 1910 has a crisp single action trigger pull, but at a cost as there is also no firing pin block. The only thing holding the striker back from touching off the round (and the rest of the magazine) is the small sear engagement, and if it were to ever break, results would be disastrous. The Kahr on the other hand has a double action trigger pull meaning if it were to drop accidentally, it wouldn't have sufficient power to set the primer off, but ontop of that the firing pin block would have prevented the striker from ever touching the primer in the first place. It's actually sort of sad to me that the 1910 has that flaw as it has the unique characteristic of being built for concealed carry from the ground up, as opposed to what seems to be an attitude of "what's the largest caliber we can put in the smallest gun?". With all that said, I actually find myself carrying BOTH pistols at times. I think of my 1910 as a more ergonomic LCP with a longer barrel that can squeeze a bit more juice from the diminutive .380.

What do you guys think of carrying a vintage pistol for carry?
I wouldn't carry either one of those . . .
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:06 AM
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:16 AM
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Colt 1903 / 1908 and their FN equivalents are well made, reliable, concealable, and capable of putting holes in people who have a hold of you so sure they stand up to today's pistols.
The "next gen" spawned by the Walther PP / PPK are still classic carry guns that have following today.
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:23 AM
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I've never liked the Kahr pistols and would have no problem with carrying a Browning FN 1910. I don't think age has anything to do with it. Its much more about what you can shoot well and are comfortable with.
Of course I may be the wrong guy to ask since the Colt Commander I carry everyday was made in 1959.
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:43 AM
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I find that I can shoot well just about any gun when I practice. ....A LOT! I don't think those turn of the century gun will hold up to a lot of practice. And when something does break parts arnt going to be easy to find or replace. Even when found, they don't just drop in like they do today. I don't carry for nestalgia, I carry for self defense. Give me a good modern gun, with good sights that I can practice.

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Old 05-24-2016, 09:48 AM
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"What do you guys think of carrying a vintage pistol for carry?"

One problem with carrying a vintage, or really expensive pistol, is that if it's used in a SD situation it may be confiscated by the police for a long while. Sitting in an evidence room for months or years un-cared for so if you get it back no telling what it'll look like. Other than that, carry what you want.

Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it.
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:58 AM
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The Question needs to distinguish between a "vintage pistol" and "vintage pistol design"...........


I've got no problem with carrying my Browning HPs or Walther PPKs or even a 1911 pattern pistol.......heck ....I've even been known to carry an "old style" S&W M&P............ but only if it can handle +P....LOL


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Old 05-24-2016, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
The Question needs to distinguish between a "vintage pistol" and "vintage pistol design"...........


I've got no problem with carrying my Browning HPs or Walther PPKs or even a 1911 pattern pistol.......heck ....I've even been known to carry an "old style" S&W M&P............ but only if it can handle +P....LOL


True dat!

Some designs are rock solid and still made to this day dispite the guns themselves being new

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Old 05-24-2016, 10:07 AM
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I have a 1910 in .380 and find it to be one of the mos instinctive pointing handguns I have ever fired. I like it and do carry it from time to time. The fact that the design was made literally unchanged for over 60 years speaks well for it.
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Old 05-28-2016, 05:11 PM
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I carry my 1908 Pocket Hammerless (.380ACP) and my 1903 PH (.32ACP) from time to time....they are both solid and accurate....


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Old 05-28-2016, 05:46 PM
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my problems with the Browning 1910's/1922s are the tiny safeties & sights... ditto that with the pocket Colts autos of the same era... but they are all well made & dependable... the mag releases could be better too.

That said, I've carried & used and still use 1911's, Walther PPK/PP, Browning High Powers , S&W revolvers & Colt revolvers whose designs were all first done in the late 1800s & early 1900s, some were tweaked later... all are still the same basic brilliant designs.

As Muss said above.. I wouldn't chose either of those 2 pistols of the original post for a primary carry piece...but either would beat using a rock or a foot long sharp stick as a concealed carry piece.
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Old 05-28-2016, 07:29 PM
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Either gun is better than no gun.To me it wouldn't matter as long as you have one when you need it.
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Old 05-28-2016, 08:14 PM
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A well maintained older quality firearm is still just as dependable and suitable as the day they were made. They are proven. The FNs, Brownings, Walthers, early Colts, and 1911s are just fine. I have several old well maintained firearms and carry them. Good luck.
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Old 05-28-2016, 09:14 PM
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I've considered getting a Browning 1910 to carry. They were made up until 1984 if I'm not mistaken. Unfortunately I think the later ones only came with the target sights so they would need to be modified before carry.
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Old 05-28-2016, 10:29 PM
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Me239,

You raise some interesting points, but are also sadly misinformed about several points.

First, any mechanical device is a set of compromises. Every feature cannot be built into every design, and we are not talking about only guns! Any firearm is nothing more nor less than a bullet launching device. The ammunition doesn't care what it is fired from, and both accuracy and safety are in a large point a result of the operators competence, not the design.

There have been blow-back pistols in calibers including 9mm Browning Long, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Largo, and even .45 ACP. Have you ever heard of HiPoint??? All of these are far more powerful than .380!

"Vintage Design"? How about the S&W J-Frame and K-Frame models? These all date back to 1896 and 1899 respectively! I think a Model 10, 19, 60, etc. could easily fall into the Vintage category. Not only are many "Vintage" pistols and revolvers fully as capable as "Modern" guns, they are just as capable as when they were new. During my life, and the more than 50 years I have carried concealed during it, I have carried many "Vintage" firearms and felt fully confidant in their ability to defend me if it came to dire necessity, and I did my share. These include in no particular order:

Mauser 1934 .32
Walther PP .32
Remington style "Hy Hunter" double-derringer, .357
Colt 1911 .45
S&W 1905 4th Change .38, ca. 1918 "I was the 3rd police officer to carry this revolver as a duty and off duty weapon!"
Browning 1910 .380
Colt New Service .45 Colt
Webley "Metropolitan Police" in .450 Revolver ca. 1870 or so.
Savage 1907 .32
Colt (Clone) SAA .45 Colt
Colt 1903 .32
S&W .38 Safety
S&W .32 Double Action (I'll admit this is marginal!)
And a few times, when in a peculiar mood, a Colt Navy .36

I am sure there were a few more that I don't recall at the moment.

My EDC is a S&W Model 12, either of 2.

I also carry from time to time, a S&W Shorty Forty, Astra A-75L 9mm, S&W Model 39, S&W Model 19 2 1/2", S&W Model 10 2", S&W Model 60-9(?) .38, S&W Model 14-2 "Dayton", S&W Model 30 3" .32 S&WL, and several others. I cannot say I really have felt any more confident with any of these "modern" guns that those in the list above. I still carry some of those from time to time when the mood strikes. Historically they have all been able to get the job done when needed, and I have no doubt they still will!
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Old 05-29-2016, 02:27 AM
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To the OP. Your hypothetical scenario is interesting but it's obvious
that you started with your conclusion and then built your "comparison"
around it. It's impossible to really generalize on the basis of vintage
vs today's. Soooo many variables. To stake your life on a gun you must
trust that specific gun you own whether vintage or modern. Different
designs require different handling procedures but it's all the same.
You must know how to handle YOUR gun.
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Old 05-29-2016, 03:01 AM
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I carried a pre-war Walther PP for years.
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Old 05-31-2016, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Me239 View Post
Handling:
The 1910 is a sweet shooting pistol, for it's size, since all three fingers fit on the grip. If it were not for the steel frame, the recoil would drive the narrow frame into the web of your hand. The balance of the pistol is near perfect and points quite naturally, which is great due to the incredibly low profile sights. While it can be enjoyable to shoot, it is obviously meant to be carried and drawn easily as the profile is incredibly sleek and sights minimal.

The CM40 is a beast. Short and simple. The recoil in the CM40 is manageable enough for carry, but by no means a range toy. The two fingered grip with flush mags is minimal at most and the top heavy design means it handles a bit more clunky than the 1910. The design is sort of reminder that most carry guns today are chopped versions of their larger counterparts, the CM40 being the same.

Which should you carry?
.

What do you guys think of carrying a vintage pistol for carry?
I prefer the vintage pistols, and this point has a lot to do with it. Also, like someone else said, there's a lot of craftsmanship in the older guns that you don't get with fantastic plastic.

If you think that the caliber in your gun is sufficient to deter, then go with the most comfortable choice in that caliber, and the one you take the most pride of ownership in.

So one is old and the other can be bought new? Remember, in a year they would both be "used guns", and that new part is no longer relevant.
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Old 05-31-2016, 07:34 AM
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One thing to consider is that older guns MAY NOT be drop safe. There was a gun writer who was a contributing editor to a large well known gun magazine. He died when his Colt Model 1903 hammerless slipped from his waistband, discharged, and struck him in the chest. He made it to his garage to drive to the hospital, but died there.

This is a controversial topic among gun people, but I never carry a pistol that is not considered 'drop safe'. This means either a super light firing pin or firing pin block.
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Old 05-31-2016, 09:38 AM
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Technology and the U.S. legal system drive all decisions by gun makers.

Metal treatment and advances in materials all make more modern guns "better" firearms. Today's finishes are more robust, and the introduction of stainless steel and modern thermoplastics permanently changed the industry.

There is a level of labor put into older pistols that makes them objets d'art. However, from a pure utilitarian perspective, those older gems may not make the modern grade. The examples we see of an older era are the best that have survived. The junk guns that were around then are, for the most part, long scrapped.

The legal system has everyone's attention. Colt came out with the Series 80, partly in response to the potential liability from the Series 70 firing system. It may have been a "panic call", but it's what reality is. Even Glocks have had negligent discharges, and its advertised as a "safe action" pistol. The Series 70 system is still alive and well.

I've handled and fired the Browning 1910, but I wouldn't want to spend an afternoon putting .380's downrange with it. I'm just not a huge fan of the straight blow back pistol, and I own a Beretta 85SF, and a couple of CZ83's. My Colt Government Model .380 is a much better pistol in that regard.
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Old 05-31-2016, 09:59 AM
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Human beings have not changed in that time frame.....my 1919 manufactured Colt 1911 will still do the trick, as will my 1908 Colt 380 Pocket Hammerless.

There are some older guns, and some modern, that I would not trust to be 100% for SD/HD purposes.

There are no certainties in life, so stack the deck in your favor as much as you can.
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Old 05-31-2016, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Me239 View Post
nor had the specific short recoil system used in the CM40 been invented,
Meh. All tilting barrel systems are variations on John Brownings design which was introduced in his Model 1900 (if memory serves).
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Old 05-31-2016, 10:20 AM
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I have to agree with American1776 about the drop-safe thing. Of course you are not supposed to ever drop your pistol... but things do happen.

In my .45 Commander I prefer a Titanium firing pin to a firing pin safety. Maybe I am wrong, but I base that preference on that first and foremost I want the gun to always fire.

In any case, as has been said already, the most important thing seems to be having knowledge of and confidence in your particular pistol, whatever age it is.
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Old 05-31-2016, 10:55 AM
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A gun in good mechanical condition that would kill 100 years ago will probably kill today. I have a Navy Colt .36 cal, same gun Wild Bill Hickok used. If it got down to it, i am sure it would kill a home invader. Of course, if it gets to that point, the BD is slipping on a lot of loose brass on the floor and my aim will be in question.
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Old 06-01-2016, 10:30 AM
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The REAL interesting thing will be to see, in 50 years or so, how todays pistols held up against the vintage guns!
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Old 06-01-2016, 11:02 AM
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Default K Frame 32 WCF

I sometimes carry a S&W 32WCF of 1920s vintage and I cook up my own handloads. It feels and handles great with its 4" barrel. I just found an H.H.Heiser holster that fits it perfectly and is a very comfortable carry. I switch it out with a model 36 at times. I'm not looking for a fight, so it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
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Old 06-01-2016, 11:11 AM
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My '72 Chiefs Special works just fine. Thank you very much.

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Old 06-01-2016, 11:13 AM
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I still have a place in my heart (but not my safe) for my once-owned wartime (WWI) commercial Broomhandle, although that's not the fastest gun in the world to get into action. Pretty safe gun.

I still carry an improved Model 56 (AKA 2" M15), whose design does actually go back to before the penultimate turn of the century, with the latest safety modification made, I believe, during WWII.

There have clearly been some significant improvements in safety features of modern autoloaders, but there have also been a number of striker-fired autoladers developed, most of them drop-proof, but also lacking some human engineering advantages (see the other thread).

Present or past, there are plenty of usable designs and available guns. Of course, there are also some that certain individuals may not prefer, or even be willing to carry. It's a sad day, indeed, when there is nothing to bitch about.

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Old 06-01-2016, 11:25 AM
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my model 59 and 4506 no dash will be there-whenever
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Old 06-01-2016, 01:31 PM
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Default Vintage pistol for cary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me239 View Post
A little while back, I saw a post on another forum asking how turn of the century pocket pistols would compare to the recent surge in popularity of pocket pistols. The two pistols in question are the FN 1910, chambered in both .32 and .380 ACP, and the Kahr CM40, chambered in .40 S&W. Perhaps a better comparison would have been against the CW380/P380 (maybe even the CT380 due to the similar barrel length), but the CM40 is the closest I have.

Functionality:
From an engineering standpoint, the two handguns are worlds apart, the CM40 being a recoil system and the 1910 being a simple straight blowback. In the early 20th century, metallurgy was not what we had today, nor had the specific short recoil system used in the CM40 been invented, meaning pistols of the day were limited to lowered powered cartridges that could be handled by the simple blowback designs. The .380 ACP is right on the cusp of being the most powerful cartridge capable of being chambered in a blowback design, before we come up with a Hi Point C9. The first pistol of Browning's to fire the .380 was the Colt 1908, which in itself is an updated Colt 1903 simply modified to fire the larger .380 over the .32 ACP. When Browning designed the 1910 pistol, he engineered the weapon to be capable of switching calibers with simply a barrel swap as a way to cut down on manufacturing costs. The pistol itself is a robust, striker-fired, design ahead of its time and was to copied over the next century, the most prominent being using the barrel as the guide rod, a design that would be found later in pistols like the Walther PP/k, Makarov, and even today's Bersa Thunder series. The 1910 was also considered to be one of the safest pistols of the day, featuring 3 safeties, the grip safety, thumb safety, and magazine disconnect.

The Kahr CM40 is in a class of its own. As to my knowledge, the CM40 is the smallest .40 S&W handgun in production. Utilizing a double action striker, Browning style recoil system, and 3 dot sight system (a feature that has almost come to be expected from every manufacturer), the CM40 has the benefits of over 100 years of engineering and user feedback over the 1910. The CM40 is one of the value based offerings from Kahr and was born out of the CM9 by increasing its size ever so slightly to compensate for the added power of .40 S&W. Another benefit of the years is the polymer frame used on the Kahr, making it lighter than similar sized full steel pistols. Other than the fact that the CM40 is the smallest .40 S&W in production, it's design is similar to the polymer, striker-fired handguns that fill the market today.

Size:
The two pistols are nearly the same size, with the exception of the 1910 being slightly longer and noticeably thinner.

Specs for the 1910:
Weight: 20.8 Oz
Length: 6.02"
Width (my calipers): .775"
Height (my calipers): 3.9"
Barrel length: 3.5"
Capacity: 6+1 or 7+1 (.380 and .32 ACP respectively)

The CM40:
Weight: 15.8 Oz (empty)
Length: 5.47"
Width: .94"
Height: 4"
Barrel: 3.1"
Capacity: 5+1

Handling:
The 1910 is a sweet shooting pistol, for it's size, since all three fingers fit on the grip. If it were not for the steel frame, the recoil would drive the narrow frame into the web of your hand. The balance of the pistol is near perfect and points quite naturally, which is great due to the incredibly low profile sights. While it can be enjoyable to shoot, it is obviously meant to be carried and drawn easily as the profile is incredibly sleek and sights minimal.

The CM40 is a beast. Short and simple. The recoil in the CM40 is manageable enough for carry, but by no means a range toy. The two fingered grip with flush mags is minimal at most and the top heavy design means it handles a bit more clunky than the 1910. The design is sort of reminder that most carry guns today are chopped versions of their larger counterparts, the CM40 being the same.

Which should you carry?
This is obviously a question of opinion, but the facts can be laid out. The 1910 is a 116 year old design that's claim to fame is killing Franz Ferdinand and precipitating WW1. The CM40 on the other hand is a benchmark of contemporary handgun design, and has the added safety of a double action trigger pull. In my opinion, the one big flaw with the 1910 is the striker. The 1910 has a crisp single action trigger pull, but at a cost as there is also no firing pin block. The only thing holding the striker back from touching off the round (and the rest of the magazine) is the small sear engagement, and if it were to ever break, results would be disastrous. The Kahr on the other hand has a double action trigger pull meaning if it were to drop accidentally, it wouldn't have sufficient power to set the primer off, but ontop of that the firing pin block would have prevented the striker from ever touching the primer in the first place. It's actually sort of sad to me that the 1910 has that flaw as it has the unique characteristic of being built for concealed carry from the ground up, as opposed to what seems to be an attitude of "what's the largest caliber we can put in the smallest gun?". With all that said, I actually find myself carrying BOTH pistols at times. I think of my 1910 as a more ergonomic LCP with a longer barrel that can squeeze a bit more juice from the diminutive .380.

What do you guys think of carrying a vintage pistol for carry?
After around eighty years of owning, and using "vintage pistols", I think the preceived problem of whether or not they are all right for carry has already been proven by the weapons themselves. I also think that the serviceability of the Soy bean/Horse manure weapons of this last generation will speak for themselves. When they have been used a while in the rays of the sun, and other elements. Then, we will know how they hold up. Plastic has already been shown to be easier, cheaper, faster, and more profitable for the manufactures to build guns from, but, the jury is still out on how long they will last. A little common sense, would go a long ways in this equation, along with some opening of your eyes. My guess is that after a short service life, they will be ground up with all other disposable products, and replaced. This is when the so called, "terrible high price" of fitting, and finishing metal weapons', true value, will come to light. Project us forward another century, and if our Rulers, still allow us to own those great old weapons, they will still be with us! Will the "Soy Bean/Horse manure" Plastic ones ? 'Nuff. Said.
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Old 06-02-2016, 06:50 AM
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All vintage guns were not created equal just as modern guns were not.
Since this thread seems to be about .380 semi autos, which I own
several of I have a few opinions. There are two .380s that just stand
out from all the rest as being exceptionally well thought out designs
along with being very well made. In striker fired guns the Browning-
FN 1910 is at the top of the list. There's a reason why it was made
for many years unchanged and was JMB's personal favorite. If you
take some time to study the design and look at how the very few
parts interact it's impossible not to be impressed. It is truely a
remarkable little pistol. The other is the external hammer Beretta
mod 1934, no doubt the most rugged, simple, durable and all around
best gun of it's type ever. I have examples of both and have carried
them for SD at times but don't often do so because of the weight of
their all steel construction, not because of concerns about their
reliability.
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:47 PM
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I think any reliable pistol regardless of age is well suited for SD. Now as for me the most "vintage" pistol I've carried was my bulgarian Makarov. (9x18mak is the most powerful round you can get away with safely in a blowback design) It served the russians & their satilite countries since 1951 up until the 90's and some nations still issue them to the PD & military. If it's good enough for them then it's good enough for me.

I'm a huge fan of Kahr pistols & my EDC is my K9 9mm and I recently ditched my M&P bodyguard for a CM9, which is not much bigger than the BG380. For giggles, I still on occasion take my mak out for a walk, I would trust any of these pistols with my life..

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Old 06-13-2016, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
Me239,

You raise some interesting points, but are also sadly misinformed about several points.

First, any mechanical device is a set of compromises. Every feature cannot be built into every design, and we are not talking about only guns! Any firearm is nothing more nor less than a bullet launching device. The ammunition doesn't care what it is fired from, and both accuracy and safety are in a large point a result of the operators competence, not the design.

There have been blow-back pistols in calibers including 9mm Browning Long, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Largo, and even .45 ACP. Have you ever heard of HiPoint??? All of these are far more powerful than .380!

"Vintage Design"? How about the S&W J-Frame and K-Frame models? These all date back to 1896 and 1899 respectively! I think a Model 10, 19, 60, etc. could easily fall into the Vintage category. Not only are many "Vintage" pistols and revolvers fully as capable as "Modern" guns, they are just as capable as when they were new. During my life, and the more than 50 years I have carried concealed during it, I have carried many "Vintage" firearms and felt fully confidant in their ability to defend me if it came to dire necessity, and I did my share. These include in no particular order:

Mauser 1934 .32
Walther PP .32
Remington style "Hy Hunter" double-derringer, .357
Colt 1911 .45
S&W 1905 4th Change .38, ca. 1918 "I was the 3rd police officer to carry this revolver as a duty and off duty weapon!"
Browning 1910 .380
Colt New Service .45 Colt
Webley "Metropolitan Police" in .450 Revolver ca. 1870 or so.
Savage 1907 .32
Colt (Clone) SAA .45 Colt
Colt 1903 .32
S&W .38 Safety
S&W .32 Double Action (I'll admit this is marginal!)
And a few times, when in a peculiar mood, a Colt Navy .36

I am sure there were a few more that I don't recall at the moment.

My EDC is a S&W Model 12, either of 2.

I also carry from time to time, a S&W Shorty Forty, Astra A-75L 9mm, S&W Model 39, S&W Model 19 2 1/2", S&W Model 10 2", S&W Model 60-9(?) .38, S&W Model 14-2 "Dayton", S&W Model 30 3" .32 S&WL, and several others. I cannot say I really have felt any more confident with any of these "modern" guns that those in the list above. I still carry some of those from time to time when the mood strikes. Historically they have all been able to get the job done when needed, and I have no doubt they still will!
Hey, sorry for the late response. Did you read my original post carefully? I'm fully aware of Hi Points (and other blowback 9,40,45,etc) and even mentioned them in the post. I said that .380 is on the cusp of being the most powerful cartridge before we arrive at a design similar to a Hi Point C9.

And yes, of course pistols are a compromise of features, however you cannot deny that the firing pin block is a prominent feature in today's pistols. There may be some older, pocket gun designs that do feature the safety, but it's mostly a modern phenomenon.

Revolvers are also "vintage" in my eyes, but my comparison was mainly between two automatic pistols that are similar in function, size, and operation (automatic, pocket sized, and striker fired pistols)
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Old 06-13-2016, 02:02 AM
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Vintage pistol carried by Vintage person....can sho' be deadly combination.
It is an interesting post. Thank you.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougb1946 View Post
A gun in good mechanical condition that would kill 100 years ago will probably kill today. I have a Navy Colt .36 cal, same gun Wild Bill Hickok used. If it got down to it, i am sure it would kill a home invader. Of course, if it gets to that point, the BD is slipping on a lot of loose brass on the floor and my aim will be in question.
I read something some years back about a homeowner using a Colt Navy C&B (original or replica not stated) to repel a home invasion attempt - in Dallas, I think. I remember no details. It worked.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:44 AM
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If you're strictly talking turn of the 20th century pistols, it's a bit of a niche comparison and not very relevant to the choices available today.

The real leap in small self defense pistol technology arguably came in the early 1930s with the PP series pistols - and they are considered old by both chronological and technological metrics.

A more practical comparison is the blow back operated, double action, de-cocker equipped PP series pistols in .32 ACP and .380 ACP with more modern delayed recoil locked pistols in .380 ACP like the Kimber Micro.

A PP or PPK/S is a pleasure to shoot in .32 ACP, but in .380 ACP, particularly a stout self defense load, the blow back operated pistol is less pleasant and has some bite to it. Not enough to matter over a short range session, but enough that you don't enjoy putting 100 rounds or more through one. And, it's enough that it requires additional training for the shooter to get good with it.

In contrast, the Kimber Micro's 1911 style delayed recoil locked breech system requires a much light recoil spring and the slide is much easier to operate. It also has much less "perceived" recoil, when in fact it actually has more total recoil given it's lighter weight, but the recoil is spread out over more time and has less "bite" to it.

The Kimber Micro is lighter and smaller than a PPK/S and is every bit as reliable - and with one of the several loads using the 90 gr XTP hollow point, it will come very close to meeting the FBI's penetration and expansion requirements.

In fairness, the PP and PPK/S with their longer barrels (3.5" and 3.9" compared to 2.75") and greater ballistic efficiency will actually meet the FBI requirements with the 90 gr XTP at around 1000-1050 fps.

----

With all that said, I have no qualms carrying either one, but at the end of the day when everything is considered, my preference for a an armed citizen self defense shoot is still a steel J-frame revolver like the Model 36 or Model 60. With a well chosen .38 +P self defense load, it will also meet the FBI penetration standards and is also very enjoyable to shoot when equipped with a decent set of rubber grips.

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Old 06-13-2016, 11:48 AM
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I carry this once in a while. Usually when discrete concealment is an issue and sometimes when I just feel like it.
It always works, accurate enough, flat, smooth, all steel...I could go on.
What's not to like?
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:44 PM
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I've got a 1941 WWII Mauser HSc in .32 acp that is just as reliable as a modern pistol.

Does a Vintage Carry Pistol Stand up to Today's Pistols?-mauser-hsc-jpg
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard View Post
I have a 1910 in .380 and find it to be one of the mos instinctive pointing handguns I have ever fired. I like it and do carry it from time to time. The fact that the design was made literally unchanged for over 60 years speaks well for it.
Always wanted one of those, but the only ones that turned up around here were always .32 cal.
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Old 06-14-2016, 08:24 PM
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Nothing wrong with an older gun as long as it is functionally sound and reliable. I'm not a fan of Kahr. Newer design is ok also. If the older gun is working good it's a toss up. Which one do you shoot better and which one carries better. Caliber is scondary to which one you shoot better
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
Me239,

You raise some interesting points, but are also sadly misinformed about several points.

First, any mechanical device is a set of compromises. Every feature cannot be built into every design, and we are not talking about only guns! Any firearm is nothing more nor less than a bullet launching device. The ammunition doesn't care what it is fired from, and both accuracy and safety are in a large point a result of the operators competence, not the design.

There have been blow-back pistols in calibers including 9mm Browning Long, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Largo, and even .45 ACP. Have you ever heard of HiPoint??? All of these are far more powerful than .380!

"Vintage Design"? How about the S&W J-Frame and K-Frame models? These all date back to 1896 and 1899 respectively! I think a Model 10, 19, 60, etc. could easily fall into the Vintage category. Not only are many "Vintage" pistols and revolvers fully as capable as "Modern" guns, they are just as capable as when they were new. During my life, and the more than 50 years I have carried concealed during it, I have carried many "Vintage" firearms and felt fully confidant in their ability to defend me if it came to dire necessity, and I did my share. These include in no particular order:

Mauser 1934 .32
Walther PP .32
Remington style "Hy Hunter" double-derringer, .357
Colt 1911 .45
S&W 1905 4th Change .38, ca. 1918 "I was the 3rd police officer to carry this revolver as a duty and off duty weapon!"
Browning 1910 .380
Colt New Service .45 Colt
Webley "Metropolitan Police" in .450 Revolver ca. 1870 or so.
Savage 1907 .32
Colt (Clone) SAA .45 Colt
Colt 1903 .32
S&W .38 Safety
S&W .32 Double Action (I'll admit this is marginal!)
And a few times, when in a peculiar mood, a Colt Navy .36

I am sure there were a few more that I don't recall at the moment.

My EDC is a S&W Model 12, either of 2.

I also carry from time to time, a S&W Shorty Forty, Astra A-75L 9mm, S&W Model 39, S&W Model 19 2 1/2", S&W Model 10 2", S&W Model 60-9(?) .38, S&W Model 14-2 "Dayton", S&W Model 30 3" .32 S&WL, and several others. I cannot say I really have felt any more confident with any of these "modern" guns that those in the list above. I still carry some of those from time to time when the mood strikes. Historically they have all been able to get the job done when needed, and I have no doubt they still will!
Feel bad responding to this over a year later, but I just logged back in! So I'm not sure if you read my entire post or not, but I clearly state that I consider .380 ACP to be the most powerful cartridge that can be chambered in a blowback pistol before something like the C9 is created

I know that every mechanical design is a compromise, but I also recognized in my post that the 1910 has the distinct disadvantage of being in the group of the first successful semi-automatic pistols, while Kahr has over 100 years of feedback from the failures and successes of manufacturers before them.

As far as the revolver argument goes, do you feel safer with a revolver without a transfer bar than a revolver with one (seeing that you carry an 1851 tells me this probably isn't an issue)? Transfer bars, along with drop safeties, are hallmarks of modern carry pistols and revolvers. I also never stated that those revolvers weren't vintage either, I simply never mentioned anything besides a FN 1910 and CM40

EDIT: Oh wow, I see that I already responded to the post with nearly the exact same opinions. Guess I'm a little stubborn.

Last edited by Me239; 08-12-2017 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
All vintage guns were not created equal just as modern guns were not.
Since this thread seems to be about .380 semi autos, which I own
several of I have a few opinions. There are two .380s that just stand
out from all the rest as being exceptionally well thought out designs
along with being very well made. In striker fired guns the Browning-
FN 1910 is at the top of the list. There's a reason why it was made
for many years unchanged and was JMB's personal favorite. If you
take some time to study the design and look at how the very few
parts interact it's impossible not to be impressed. It is truely a
remarkable little pistol. The other is the external hammer Beretta
mod 1934, no doubt the most rugged, simple, durable and all around
best gun of it's type ever. I have examples of both and have carried
them for SD at times but don't often do so because of the weight of
their all steel construction, not because of concerns about their
reliability.
I was just about to say that the Beretta 1934 has to be one of the best .380s ever made. With a steel frame and and open slide design I bet that little gun would run the new and hot JHP defense loads all day without failure. Heck, if Beretta brought the 1934 back I would buy one. Especially if they made the saftey easier to operate and used an aluminum frame like the 80s and 92s.
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Old 08-12-2017, 05:14 AM
Ivan the Butcher Ivan the Butcher is online now
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Being 61, I have noticed that older men carry older guns and younger men carry younger designs. I don't know if this is a statement for stubbornness, or wisdom.

What I have learned over the last 45 years of being in the working world is; "New and Improved", seldom is!

One of the other issues I take concern over is; "Drop proof" firearms. If the 1911 is so bad, Why aren't there millions of dead or wounded GI's from WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. The guns were dropped sometimes with the men attached! Or the millions of civilians that have owned these same guns or commercial models.

Using primed only cases, The Columbus, Ohio PD ordinance department conducted independent tests to see what it actually took in real life to get a 1911 to discharge when dropped. They could not get one of the test guns to discharge! They used a slide only, and got it to discharge UNDER UNREALISTIC CONDITIOND ONLY! The bore axis must be perpendicular to the surface and the distance it falls was greater than 6'2" men could hold them unaided. (8 foot 6 inches, is the minimum distance that sticks in my mind.) A complete steel framed pistol's center of gravity won't allow these conditions to exist under anything close to real life conditions! Saying that it is impossible to happen isn't true either, but you stand a much greater chance of being struck by lightning, TWICE! (which has happened, ONCE!)

Is any of this relevant to the 1910 FN or Kahr pistols? I believe that gravities relationship to an objects center of gravity hasn't changed! I also believe that most people don't go looking for a way to have a ND! I do believe that there are a lot of stupid people out there, and Murphy's law will come up once in a great while. So to prevent any catastrophe, send all your FN 1910's and 1922's along with all your Colt 1903's, 1908's and 1911's to me for proper disposal!

Ivan
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:13 AM
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Is a 1911 vintage enough?
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