Friends.

This post does not directly concern any Smith & Wesson gun, but I know that some of you are knowledgeable about the history of target competition in the U.S. and may be able to help me with a little research project.

A couple of months ago I won a pistol in an auction. It is a Remington Model 1871 rolling block, no. 642, that was converted from the original .50 centerfire to .22 LR at some point in the past, including replacement of the barrel. I have posted the auction pictures in the photo album section of this forum, here:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/members...-to-22-lr.html

Here is one of the photos:



There is a saying, "Buy the gun, don't buy the story." I bought the gun, and I like it. However, there is also a "story" that came with this gun, which I don't necessarily "buy," but which I am trying to check out. I hope that some of you can help.

Four pages of documentation were conveyed to me with the pistol. I have posted images of all four documents on the photo-album page. For convenience I will refer to them here as documents #1-4.

Document #1 is an affidavit executed in 1966 by "I. N. Wagner," who asserted that he had owned the pistol from the time that it was rebuilt in 1922 "by an old Remington man named Elliot," until he sold it in 1966 to "Bruce Budd, of Ashland, Ohio." Among other assertions, Wagner affirmed this was one of three pistols that he (Wagner) used "in capturing the All-Around Pistol Championship of the United States in 1925." Here is an image of the Wagner affidavit:



Document #2 is a handwritten note on the letterhead of "Wagner's Gunroom, Ashland, Ohio," unsigned. It appears to be little more than a restatement of some of the information from the affidavit, along with the statement, "So far as known there are no duplicates of this gun." [More about "Wagner's Gunroom" in posts below.] There is no date on this document but it looks like it dates to the 1960s or thereabouts.

Document #3 is a letter (on original color stationary of Arms and The Man, a magazine about guns) sent to Wagner on August 19, 1922, by Major Julian S. Hatcher. Hatcher was a renown authority on firearms, author of well-known works such as Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, who retired from the army as a major general. He was also an accomplished competition shooter. In the letter, Hatcher advised Wagner regarding the best ammo "for your Barnes Remington Pistol." Here is an image of Major Hatcher's letter:



Document #4, dated March 1, 1988, consists of handwritten notes by an unknown party. These appear to reflect somebody's effort to understand Wagner's claim regarding the "old Remington man named Elliot." The notes also contain some biographical information about Hatcher.

So then, there are several points here that I am trying to either validate or disprove.

-- THE "ELLIOT" CLAIM. The unknown 1988 note writer apparently was scrutinizing the possibility that the "old Remington man named Elliot" was renown firearms innovator William H. Elliot [note that the name was spelled with a single "t"]. If it could be documented that William H. Elliot actually did the conversion on my pistol, that would be of great interest and perhaps enhance its monetary value considerably. William H. Elliot was a dentist and prolific inventor, with over 100 patents, about 60 related to firearms. He developed and patented several successful Remington models, including the .41 double derringer, and also was behind the design of the Colt Lightning, according to various reference sources. However, William H. Elliot, if still alive in 1922, would have been old -- at least in his 80s. I suppose it is possible that the famous inventer, who had once been closely associated with Remington, was still puttering around in his 80s or 90s converting old Remington military single shots into target pistols, but I am skeptical of this. It seems at least as likely that Wagner, when himself an old man, was confused in his memory, or perhaps misattributed the gun to the famous Elliot in the hope of increasing its value. It is even possible there was more than one "old Remington man" named Elliot, although this seems unlikely. [UPDATE: In his post below, Buford57 reproduces what I was unable to find myself -- an obituary for William H. Elliot, which reveals that Dr. Elliot died on March 27, 1895. I think we can agree that this rules out William H. Elliot as being the "old Remington man named Elliot," who supposed rebuilt my pistol. This pushes me more towards the alternative theory that it was actually modified by somebody named "Barnes" (see the next paragraph), although it is still possible that there is another Elliot yet to be discovered.]

-- THE "BARNES" REFERENCE. In his letter to Wagner, Major Hatcher refers to "your Barnes Remington pistol," and the context makes it clear that he is referring to a .22 pistol. I do not know for sure that the pistol that Hatcher referred to is the pistol that I now own, but it seems highly probable, given the context. Wagner says in the affidavit that he obtained the converted pistol, converted to .22LR, in 1922. Also in 1922, Wagner apparently wrote to Hatcher asking for advice on the best .22 ammo for use in a "Barnes Remington pistol." It seems very likely that it is the same gun, especially since the original Hatcher letter has been passed down with the pistol and not some other pistol. So the question is, who was "Barnes"? Was he, perhaps, the gunsmith who actually converted the pistol to .22LR, with the "old Remington man named Elliot" being a later revision?

-- THE "CHAMPIONSHIP" CLAIM. In his 1966 affidavit, Wagner affirms that this pistol "is one of three pistols used by him (Wagner) in capturing the All-Around Pistol Championship of the United States in 1925." My research so far, which has been far from exhaustive, has failed to find a reference to any competition called the "All-Around Pistol Championship" or any close approximation. More importantly, I could not find any reference at all to a competition shooter named "I.N. Wagner." However, I would like to research this in far greater depth. I am handicapped by not even knowing Wagner's first name -- even the 1922 letter from Hatcher is addressed to "Mr. I.N. Wagner, 250 Custer Avenue, Youngstown, Ohio" -- no first name. [UPDATE: In his post below, Bekeart cites census data that indicates Mr. Wagner's full name was Irenaeus Nicholas Wagner, born December 26, 1889, died June 21, 1983.] The Hatcher letter provides evidence that Mr. Wagner was pursuing an active interest in target shooting in 1922, but if he really won any kind of national competition in 1925, whatever the exact name of the event, I would think that it would be possible to find a record of it.

I would be grateful for any light that any of you can shed on any of the murky issues outlined above, including but not limited to the following points: What year did the firearms inventor William H. Elliot die [answered below-- he died in 1895]? Was there a gunsmith named "Barnes" who was involved in such conversions during the 1920s? Is there any reference to anybody named Wagner participating in shooting competitions in or around 1925, whether nationally or in Ohio, and if so, did he actually "capture" any titles? [See post of August 15, 2017 below, for additional information about I.N. Wagner, raising yet more questions.]

Any observations on the pistol itself would also be of interest to me.

Thank you!

Douglas D. Johnson
SWCA No. 2404

If you haven't done so yet, search the census, voter registration, military service, death records and business license records for Ohio for persons with the names you mention. You will probably get several hits you can follow up on. Ed.

According to A Short History of the National Trophy Individual Pistol Matches, the firearm required to be used in 1925 was the Colt 1911. The competition that year was won by a Cpt. MacLaughlin.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Found out some about Mr. Wagner

Name: Irenaeus Nicholas Wagner
Birth Date: 26 Dec 1889
Death Date: 21 Jun 1983

Home in 1920: Coitsville, Mahoning, Ohio Census
Home in 1930: Youngstown, Mahoning, Ohio Census
Home in 1940: Ashland, Ashland, Ohio CEnsus
Residence Year: 1942 Ashland, Ohio Draft Registeration
Residence Place 1983: Ashland, Ashland, Ohio Death


1920/1930 worked at department store Census
1940 worked as assembler Census

Elliot

↑ "Death of Dr. William Harvey Elliot", in Harlan, A. W. (ed.). The Dental Reivew. (Chicago: H. D. Justi & Son)., Vol. 9, p. 354, 1895.

Dr. William Harvey Elliot, of No. 499 eighth street, South Brooklyn, died at the Hotel Kirby, Grafton, Mass., Wednesday morning, March 27, after a short illness. Dr. Elliott was born in Leicester, Mass., April 23, 1816, and was a successful inventor from his early youth. In 1838 he married Miss Almira Lowell, of Plattsburg, N.Y. He practiced dentistry in Montreal from 1846 to 1856 and attained a wide celebrity from his articles published in English and American dental journals, being made an honorary member of the Canadian Medico-Chirurgical Society. In 1858 he went to Ilion, N.Y., where he made a long series of mechanical experiments, resulting in the production of a number of pistols and rifles of original patterns, manufactured by the Remington Arms company. In 1882, at the age of sixty-six, he went to Colts' Armory, where he brought out his last firearm, the lightning repeating rifle, now being manufactured by the Colts company. He was an experimenter in many fields, having taken out over a hundred patents. He went to Grafton to attend the funeral of his brother, Dr. Joseph D. Elliott, and survived him only a week. He had two children, a son the late S. Lowell Elliott, and a daughter. His remaining family consists of a daughter and a daughter-in-law. He was buried at Grafton, Mass.


Curiously enough, on my way to this I noticed a Rhode Island burial record for a Remington Elliot. I'll see if I can find it again. A grandson or nephew? **** Disregard: turned out to be an Elliot T. Remington, who was born in 1902. Hardly "old" in 1922 to anyone above the age of 8.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

You have a Remington Model 1901 Rolling Block Pistol. The barrel is original and .22 LR was an original calibre. These were not bored to .50 cal. These were made from 1901 to 1909, and if memory serves me well, 735 were manufactured. I will verify details in a reference book I have on these when I am home later tonight. These are currently bringing around $5000 in a condition somewhat better than yours at auction houses like James Julia. I would guess yours would still be worth north of $3K.

^What mrcvs said. 975 1871 Army models were purchased at auction and sold to Mr. Hartley (Remington Arms President). He converted them into .22 LR, .32 and .44 S&W as the Model 1901. This writeup will help. Looks like you made out big time!

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

The OP's has a barrel contour I do not see in pictures of other 1901s. Look right at the receiver ring.
The hammer spur is slimmer, longer, and more graceful.
Of course about any shop could have made the grip adapter.

Let me say at the outset that while I am very attracted to these old Remington target pistols, it is an interest I've developed only in the past few years, and I am very far from being an expert. So I am quite willing to be instructed, challenged, or corrected. But, I am currently persuaded that the pistol we are discussing here, the "Wagner pistol" shown in the photograph above, is indeed a Army Model 1871 that was modified long after it left Remington.

Certainly, the Wagner pistol has similarities to the Model 1901 -- after all, the Model 1901 apparently was made utilizing leftover Model 1871 frames. But the Wagner pistol has characteristics quite distinct from any Model 1901 that I have seen to date.

I was fortunate enough to acquire, three years ago, an actual Model 1901 in .22 LR, No. 3242. No. 3242 has a well-documented provenance, and it has attributes that are consistent with the descriptions and photos of the Model 1901 in the reference books -- see, for example, page 214 of Remington Rolling Block Pistols by Jerry Landskorn (Rolling Block Press, 1981.) The Model 1901 has what you might consider a heavy barrel -- octagon for about four inches, then round but fat. Here is a photo of my Model 1901:



The "Wagner pistol" also has a two-section barrel, but both sections are much slimmer than the corresponding barrel sections on the Model 1901. On the Wagner pistol, the first section has three flat planes on the top, but is otherwise round. On the Wagner pistol, the last five inches of the barrel are entirely round, slim, and I think slightly tapered.

There are other distinctions as well, all of which suggest to me that the Wagner pistol is indeed the product of non-factory gunsmithing on a pistol that started out as a Model 1871 (.50 CF).

[Additional comments added August 16, 2017: I've done a little more reading now on the various models of rolling block pistols that Remington cataloged from 1871 to 1901. As I understand it, they all used the same "surplus" frames, but incorporated successive generations of engineering refinements -- improved sights, minor modifications to the action, etc. It is possible that the gunsmith who modified my pistol started with a Model 1887 or a Model 1891, and if so he may have started with a chambering other than .50 CF. I still think it quite unlikely that he reworked a Model 1901, which was already a pretty refined target pistol.]

Now that I look at your photograph of a true 1901, there are significant enough differences in barrel, grips & hammer that make the firearm in question unlikely to be a true 1901, despite my initial observations and comments. I stand corrected.

I did not get around to verifying the facts relative to the information I posted about the Model 1901, but I shall get to it over the weekend. In the meantime, here are photographs of my Model 1901. Enjoy!

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You might check the US Revolver Association records for Wagner. They also organzied championship matches. I think they were slow fire only and single shots as well as revovlers were permitted. I think the USRA is still in existence.

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far. The information provided has clarified a couple of the major issues. However, I am still seeking any information regarding the "Barnes" referred to in Maj. Julian Hatcher's 1922 letter; this "Barnes" may be the gunsmith who turned this Remington pistol into a .22 target pistol. Also, any information to validate the claim that Irenaeus Nicholas Wagner (I.N. Wagner) won a national pistol competition in 1925.

I am also interested in any information regarding Wagner's Gunroom, a firm in Ashland, Ohio, that Wagner operated for many years. I've learned that Wagner's Gunroom advertised hand-loaded ammo for target shooters in various national publications as late as the 1960s.

Who needs CSI?. This thread is so much better. Frank

Friends,

I am still seeking information on a circa-1920s gunsmith named "Barnes" who may have converted this Remington Model 1871 from .50 CF to .22 LR rimfire. Also, I am seeking additional information on the pistol's previous owner, Irenaeus Nicholas Wagner (I.N. Wagner), who is said to have won a national pistol competition in 1925. Wagner was associated with "Wagner's Gunroom" in Ashland, Ohio, and for many years sold custom target ammunition through ads in national gun magazines.

Douglas Johnson
SWCA No. 2404

Check this out.

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

I set aside this research project for awhile, but now I am turning back to it. Since the initial discussion, I have come up with a few items regarding the previous owner of my pistol, Irenaeus Nicholas Wagner, who everybody called "I.N. Wagner." We have previously established that Mr. Wagner was born December 26, 1889, and died June 21, 1983. This is a portrait of him (date unknown):



I have now obtained a copy of an article about Mr. Wagner that appeared in an Ohio newspaper when Wagner was 90 years old, which would have been in 1980. (I do not have the name of the newspaper or the exact date of publication.) Here is an image of the article:



The reporter wrote, "In 1923 he was National Accurate Pistol Champion, qualifying in .22, .38, and .45 caliber automatic weapons [sic], winning the most points of all three matches. He was the the state pistol champion from 1921 until 1923, competing all three years at Camp Perry. During this time and until 1931 he was one of the top 10 pistol shooters in the United States and held the master's rating, pistol shooting's best. In 1924 he tried out for the Olympics but lost in points."

Presumably, all of that was based on what Mr. Wagner told the reporter. At that time, Mr. Wagner was 90 years old "and sometimes . . . forgets names and faces so familiar to him at one time in his life." This was 14 years after Mr. Wagner swore out the affidavit asserting that "this pistol . . . is one of three pistols used by him in captured the All-Around Pistol Championship of the United States in 1925," an assertion not entirely consistent with the achievements as recited in the article. So far, I have failed to find a record of an "I.N. Wagner" winning a national pistol championship in either 1923 or 1925. In fact, I have not yet found his name as a competitor in any event. But, my research materials are limited. I would be interested in receiving any documentation regarding any involvement by I.N. Wagner in national or Ohio pistol shooting competitions in the period of about 1921-1931. I think it likely that he was in fact a competition shooter of some distinction, even though details may have been garbled or exaggerated decades later.

So far, I have entirely struck out in trying to locate any information about the gunsmith, "Barnes," referred to in the Hatcher letter, who may have converted my pistol in or about 1922. Any leads on that trail would also be appreciated.

I wouldn't dwell on Hatcher's use of the term "Barnes Remington Pistol". Since he was replying to Wagner's letter, he was likely simply using the term that Wagner used to describe the gun, like saying "Here's a good choice for your Old Betsy." Barnes could be the guy Wagner bought it from. Given Mr. Wagner's apparent penchant for prevarication, he might've imagined a master gunsmith Barnes.

I suppose it would be a large task, but it seems one place to start would be researching any Barnes in the Ohio census from the period.

I have serious doubts about just about every tale in that newspaper article as well. The heroic rescue attempt of a drowning niece could be what I.N. told his son, and not necessarily witnessed by him. How old would his son have been in 1924? And the watch mysteriously stopped, even though jewelers say there's nothing wrong with it, holding the ghostly power of a young life tragically lost. The epic-level reloading prowess is questionable: He invented more than 2,200 loads for over 160 calibers, and of course all the equipment had been sold, that's why it wasn't there to be observed? That's an average of 14 loads per caliber. Elmer Keith and Jack Connor combined couldn't hold a candle to this guy.

The claim of being the first-ever firearms instructor for both the local Police and Sheriff's Departments should bear some mention in the histories of those agencies, and should be verifiable.

So basically the only thing we have fairly solid proof of is that Mr. Wagner once owned a single-shot .22 pistol, and was such an expert that he had to write to a popular writer to ask what ammunition to use. A state pistol champion, after two victorious years, had to ask what every novice shooter knows about .22s being picky about which ammo they like.

I think he has a second personality named Walter Mitty.

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TEAM DNF

Well, SOMEBODY converted the Remington from .50 Centerfire to .22 LR, including instillation of a new barrel, target sights, etc. It is very nice work, and of a "style" that probably dates it to early 20th century. I suspect that Hatcher was referring to somebody with a reputation for doing nice work on such conversions, the way we might nowadays refer to "a Bowen revolver" or some such. But this is just a working theory.

The failed rescue and the stopped watch are outside the scope of my inquiry.

As I mentioned in my post of June 23, 2016, above, in my initial research I did establish that for quite a number of years, into the 1960s, Mr. Wagner advertised custom handloads via mail order in various firearms-related publications nationwide (including, I think, the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN). I retained a couple of these ads, which I have inserted below. I am not a handloader myself, and I express no judgment on how many "loads" someone might plausibly employ in 15 or 20 years of such work, as this too is really outside the scope of my inquiry.

I am not invested in any particular outcome on this research. I would like to learn who did the pistol conversion, if possible. If Mr. Wagner in fact was a shooter of high distinction, I'd like to document it (and I don't think that his asking Hatcher for advice on ammo in 1922 excludes that possibility). Nor will I be too quick to reach a judgment of prevarication, given the fallibility of human memory and the imprecision of many newspaper reporters -- I have ample personal experience of both. But if none of it checks out, no sweat. As I indicated earlier, I bought the gun, not the story.

The gist of my post is that if you can't believe anything a man says, then you can't believe anything a man says. While it is certainly possible that out of a galaxy of falsehoods spun by a person, the one true thing is the one that makes your wishes come true, it's not a sound rationale.

I wouldn't be surprised if he stole the thing, or found it in an abandoned house sitting on a piece of newspaper with an ad for Barnes Miracle Elixir, and started fantasizing about his custom gun and winning national championships. Objectively that would be just as likely as there being a talented gunsmith named Barnes, of such prominence that Maj. Hatcher was familiar with him, that there is no record of anywhere.

As to the ammo reloading issue, it's an advanced experimenter that might try 14 different loads for his pet piece. Not something a casual reloader would do, especially on a shoestring, not something a re-manufacturer would do if they expected to make any profit, and completely implausible to do so for 160 different calibers.

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TEAM DNF

Well, I don't yet know that there is "no record . . . anywhere" of a talented gunsmith named Barnes, circa 1922. So far, my only investigations into that question have been this thread, and some googling -- hardly exhaustive research. I do intend to make some other inquiries as time allows.

I've spent a little more time looking into the Wagner claims of a winning some national competition, but I surely don't feel that I have covered the ground sufficiently to issue a verdict of prevarication or any other verdict. There was a great deal of competitive target shooting going on in the USA back in that era, and if somebody has assembled a compendium on the bright lights (other than the members of the Olympic teams), I haven't found it yet. Recently I signed up for a couple of subscription document-archive services so that I could pursue some of these little research projects, but I haven't had time yet to master those tools.

I have limited interest in the reloading aspect, but if any reader personally utilized Mr. Wagner's handloading service ("Wagner's Gunroom"), late 1940s to sometime in the 1960s, I hope he will post here. There is a substantial likelihood of garbled information in a newspaper piece based on an interview on a technical subject, conducted by a reporter probably young and unversed in the subject, especially when the interviewee is a 90-year-old man with failing memory.

The name 'Barnhart' is very well known in early Ohio gunsmithing. Perhaps a son, nephew or other relative of one of these older Ohio Gunsmiths that were building muzzle loaders from the early 1800's (and some before). Many worked well into the 1890's and early 20th century and worked on breechloaders.
I'm sure the trade was passed on at times.

As far as the slight difference in the name,,shortening the name slightly changing the spelling or otherwise scrambling the name was so very common. Still seems to be!
Before S/S#'s & data bases, you could be pretty much anyone you wanted to be in name.

Just my thoughts..

My name is Steve Wagner and I am I.N . Wagner's grandson. I did not take the time to read all of your questions and posts. I know the name Elliot from the past but from many moons ago in various conversations at the first gunshop I remember. I don't recall a Barnes name.
Almost all of his shooting was before I was born. Probably most of his awards were won at Camp Perry in Ohio. After you found what IN stood for you more than likely noticed he was first alternate in pistol at the 1936 Olympics.
While I was still living in Ohio grandpa was mostly loading for hunters. At one time I had a couple of his pistols but after moving to Florida and entering the military I lost track of them.
My dad and uncle sold everything in the last gunshop in the late 1980's. I have no records but I do know the name of the one gentleman from Ashland you mentioned named Bruce Bud.

Mr. Wagner: I thank you very much for taking the trouble to register for this forum and for your very helpful post. Actually, this is the first I had heard about I.N. Wagner being an alternative member of the 1936 Olympic pistol team. I would love to find a book or other documentation that mentions I.N. Wagner's role as an alternate at the 1936 Olympics. I have some reference materials pertaining to the 1936 Olympic pistol competition, but unfortunately the books I possess only mention the regular team members.

I may follow up with some additional questions when I have more time.