There's a CETME 308 for sale locally. I checked the auction sites and the price seems reasonable. Its been listed for a while, so I figure I can haggle a bit too.
I don't really need it as I have M1As. Ammo wouldn't be a problem. I'm really asking more out of curiosity rather than any real interest in buying, but things could change in the near future.
I honestly know very little about these rifles. So tell me:
Accuracy?
Recoil?
Reliability?
Handling?
Scopes? (this one doesn't have a rail)
I believe I've heard that they're hard on brass. True or false?
Anything else you want to mention?

Very hard on brass. Accurate enough for combat. Short stock kicks my cheek. Check the bolt gap. Fun rifle. I have a mag if you get it. A PM will do. Free, but you pay shipping. i had an HK91 a long time ago. Sold it to fix my Harley. Have had a PTR91 and another clone since then. Even had a clone of the 93. No joy on mags on that one. And they throw brass about 25 feet. I like my M1As and LR308 better.
But, they are fun. LOL

If it is a Century Arms build I would stay as far away from it as I could, unless you are a gambling man and like to risk your money. The quality of the Century CETMEs were very hit or miss.

bob

You probably know it evolved into the H-K 91/G-3. My son had a G-3 in Iraq as a contractor. He took it along when ranges might be too long for his M-4 5.56mm carbine. He said it killed better than the smaller caliber. He shot enough people with both to know.

I think the Spaniards loaded the 7.62 NATO ctg. lightly. You may damage the rifle if you use full loads. Anyone know?

The G-3 was the rifle used a lot in Rhodesia if you couldn't get an FN-FAL. I've been told by men who were there then that the FN was much preferred. Most of the FN's were probably made in South Africa, where the military called it the R -1. The locally made Galil, with a longer stock, is the R-4.

My son liked the G-3 pretty well, but went looking for an FN when he bought it. Had trouble finding one for what he wanted to pay. After all, he had to re-sell the rifle when he left. They wouldn't let him leave the country with weapons beyond his knives.

Personally, I wouldn't trust a CETME as much as I would a German G-3. In your place, I'd buy a FAL if you want something besides your M-1A's.

This is very true, and may be why you are seeing it at a reasonable price, which may be reasonable for a working gun, or a total raping for a useless pile of problems that will have you trying to get rid of it in 3 months, or doubling your investment to try and put it right. I have a smooth running PTR91 and a SOCOM, you could give me a Century CETME, but you would have to do just that, GIVE it to me...

STAY AWAY. ....FAR FAR AWAY....VERY FAR!

Century butchered them to no end. These guns came in very used and instead of building on new parts Century just forced fit what they could. Since its a roller system those ball bearings have to be changed out eventually for head space issues. Century just grounded to bolt to force fit head space.

If you reload then forget about it. The G3/HK/CETME system is not only hard on brass it also throws them to the next county.

But as a general rule anything Century builds is subject to quality control suspicion. If you think you'll use their warranty. ...forget about that too. The warranty is good for ONE YEAR from date of manufacturing. Not date of sale....date of build.

Century import is ok since all they did was bring it in.

Century build ....don't waste your money

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I know that some of the earliest Century CETMEs were GTG (circa 2000-01) but quickly went downhill afterwards so keep that in mind as others have pointed out. If it says MARS equipment on the mag-well buy it and dint look back as they were mfg'd in Spain and imported in the 1960s-early 70s.

You might look at getting an Armalite AR10 in .308Win... the AR 15 service rifle/match rifle builders have discovered all the tricks necessary for building extremely accurate AR 15 platform rifles & those tricks work just as well on the .308Win platform rifles..

Armalite rifles are matching & in some cases out performing other manufacturers AR 10 style rifles costing 2 to 3 times as much. & they stay in tune much better than M14/M1A rifles do... and I love our early M1A NM that our smith built for us... It needs to be re-bedded every year... & is only taken down once per season at the end of the match season... the AR10 doesn't mind being fully stripped every session......I'd say that you should save your pennies & buy an AR10 Armalite...

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

There is some mis information and half truths in the thread so far that should probably be corrected or clarified.

The CETME came in a couple of flavors, the B and C that use different ammunition, but that requires some back ground.

The CETME was a Spanish parallel to the H&K G3 developed in collaboration with H&K after WWII and it was designed primarily by a German engineer who had developed the Stg 45 at the end of WWII. Collaboration with Spain was needed due to restrictions on small arms development in Germany following WWII.

The CETME and G3 differed as the G3 was designed to use the standard 7.62 NATO round, but the idea behind the CETME was to create an assault rifle with a truly intermediate cartridge - much like the Brits had intended with the L1A1 in .280 British or .280/30, before caving to pressure to adopt the 7.62mm NATO.

As such the 7.62mm CETME cartridge had the same exterior dimensions as the 7.62 NATO but fired a lighter (113 gr) plastic cored bullet at lower velocity (2600 fps). That was very close to the performance of the .280 British with it's 139 gr bullet at 2,545 fps and not much in excess of the 7.62x39 M43 round with a 123 gr bullet at 2425 fps or the original 7.92x33mm Kurz round with a 123 gr bullet at 2,250 fps.

The CETME Model B rifle was designed to use this less powerful round, while the later CETME Model C and E used the full power 7.62mm NATO standardized 147 gr round at about 2800 fps.

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The H&Ks roller locked breech system is a delayed blowback operated system not a gas operated system. In very simple terms, the rollers delay the opening of the breech as the rifle recoils. To facilitate unlocking with some pressure still in the case, the chamber is also fluted to reduce the contact surface.

However the rollers and the recesses in the bolt have to be very precisely engineered and matched to the recoil impulse of the cartridge. This means that when Spain upgraded the CETME B to the CETME C model they had to change the roller lock system to match the more powerful M80 NATO ball round.

This means if you get a CETME, you have to know which model it is, and more importantly which rollers it has in it.

It also means that if you own a roller locked rifle designed for the M80 ball cartridge, like the H&K 91, G3, Springfield SAR-8, PTR-91 - or a CETME C - you have to shoot ammunition in it that is well matched to the roller system which is optimized for a 147 gr bullet at about 2800 fps.

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The CETME, G3, H&K 91, SAR-8, etc all get a somewhat underserved reputation for being hard on brass when they are shot with ammo with heaver recoil impulse than the M80 ball load. This results in pre-mature unlocking of the bolt when the case is still adhered to the chamber wall and when pressure is still too high.

In the extreme, this results in the rifle throwing the brass about 50-70 feet and results in the flutes leaving very deep scoring on the case that makes it almost un-reloadable.

On the other hand, properly fed these rifles can be exceptionally accurate and very reliable. They just are not very amenable to variation in ammunition specifications.

That's the advantage the FAL had as it's adjustable gas system lets it shoot almost anything that comes in a .308 Win/7.62mm NATO case.

The FAL also however is a long and heavy rifle that handles like a m,such shorter and lighter rifle, where the G3, etc feels and handles heavier than it actually is, and it's actually pretty heavy already. Given a choice between a FAL and a G3, I'd choose to carry the G3 as well.

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As for the CAI builds, I agree that their failure rate is high.

If you buy a CAI built CETME (or any other CAI built arm), be sure to buy it face to face where you can carefully inspect it inside and out, and buy from a local gun shop that will agree to refund your money if you find it won't shoot or function properly - with suitable M80 ball type ammunition.

I never had any issues with my Springfield National Match M1A going out of tune - other than having to replace the barrel every 5000 rounds when accuracy started to slide, and re-bedding it every other year or so.

On the plus side, I just had to skim bed it, hogging out about 1/8"bedding in some of the key areas, while leaving enough contact surfaces to keep the action in its proper place to ensure it stays aligned in the stock and maintains proper downward tension on the barrel. It was an easy couple hours work start to finish plus some time overnight to let the steel filled bedding compound set up.

I re-bedded it when I sold it to another shooter just getting started and he called a couple days later to complain he could not get the action out of the stock. I told him that's by design, that I had it out after bedding it to clean it up, and that it should not come out of the stock more than once or twice a season. I don't think he was happy as I think he wanted to take to out and play with it.

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As a service rifle, the M14 had the advantage of being a very naturally pointing rifle. One of the drills with it involved taping over the rear sights and then snap shooting targets out to about 50 yards.

I had one, probably an early one, serial C02185, bought it back in 1991. It shot just fine and the bolt was fit properly. The bore looked new. I was happy with it, sold it in the Great BUFF Divorce Sale.

I had a Century built C91 Sporter, their version of the HK-91. Good rifle. I bought it from a good friend (also my FFL) and he bought it back because he missed shooting it.

I have had 2 HK-91's and a PTR-91. All had fluted chambers and while the fired cases had black streaks on them, they reloaded fine. I shot a box of W-W and a box of Federal American Eagle through the CETME and the cases resized normally and fit in a case gauge. Others have reported chewed up rims on fired cases, which is a bigger problem than the flute marks.

Spanish Santa Barbara 7.62 ammo was available as surplus at the time. Cost was $125/1,000 in the original wooden crate, delivered. It was excellent ammo, and I went through a couple of cases of it. It was Berdan primed, so I never chased the empties. Yes, these rifles throw the empties a ways with enthusiasm.

The thing is, with any Century branded rifle, you have to inspect it before buying and know what you are looking at. Ground bolts and canted rear sights are the primary failings on their CETME and H&K clones. Century contracted with others to assemble a lot of their rifles, and some shops did a much better job than others.

I prefer other 7.62 battle rifles to the CETME and H&K. The FAL is my favorite. I've had Belgian FNs, a real live British L1A1, a Brazilian IMBEL and kit rifles assembled on DSA, Entreprise, IMBEL and Hesse receivers, some built by gunsmiths, some by me and some factory built. I've also had a couple of M1-A rifles and like them a lot.

The CETME you are looking at may be a great rifle or a source of unending problems. If you can, find somebody to check it out for you, especially the bolt and the bolt/trunnion gap.

Mine is an early one as well, serial number under 1500. Mine has the wood furniture, windmill rear sight and cast stainless steel receiver. Don't know if the cast receiver is better than the stamped but there is a difference.

On the original military scope mount the mount latches down on the pads on the receiver. In order to latch properly the receiver has to spring just a little. The cast receiver doesn't so if you use that type of mount you either have to file the pads on the mount in which case it will not fit properly on another rifle or file the pads on the receiver which is probably the better route to take.

Mine does not have a ground bolt but it does have a slightly canted front sight. The only problems I've encountered were during break-in. The rifle would not chamber a round from a fully loaded, 20rd CETME magazine. If I loaded 10rds it ran fine. After a couple of mags it would work with 15, a couple more and 18. After perhaps 100rds it would work with a fully loaded mag and has ever since.

The muzzlebrake is also an issue. The thing works great but it is so loud you almost need plugs and muffs. I've actually blown stuff off of shooting benches beside me and trust me, if anyone watching you isn't directly behind you they will be after the first shot. Anyone positioned to your rear to the left or right of centerline will get a major shockwave from that brake.

Other than those issues and the other comments about how far they through brass and the way the fluted chamber messes up the brass I've been pleased with mine.

I managed to score 20+ CETME mags when they were dirt cheap so I've not had to try and use any G3 mags but from what I hear they seem to work ok if you can't find CETME mags or just don't want to pay the higher price.

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BCCI Life Member #2068

Thanks for all the info.
I do reload and when I buy Mil-surp ammo I make sure is is reloadable. So being rough on brass and having to chase it down doesn't sit well with me. Its also pretty obvious that I don't know near enough about these rifles to make an informed decision.
I suppose if I can get it cheap enough, I might give it a try. But so far the seller hasn't responded to my e-mail.
Probably just gonna let this one slide.

The key word here is ALMOST. Certain commercial .308 ammo with a long pressure curve defeats the adjustment on my FAL. The clue is that you have to REDUCE the gas to get extraction and even then the rim is getting tweaked. I first noticed this with Winchester SP ammo with the red X on the box.

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Release the Kraken

I own a Century 'C308 Sporter'...it ain't too bad a rifle.

I re-fitted the bolt with new rollers and got some proper gap and it shoots well as far as accuracy.

My CETME however doesn't like CETME magazines. Works fine with G3 mags(steel or alloy)..but sometimes just won't pickup a cartridge with the curved Spanish magazines. I think the lower receiver/mag-catch relationship on mine is out of spec and the curved mags hang too low to work reliably.

Friends don't let friends shoot CETMEs. Just sayin.
Keith

If you like to tinker with your firearms a CETME can be a nice project. When I got mine the Century assembly monkeys had ground the bolt to get a "proper" bolt gap. I replaced the bolt and added +rollers and the bolt gap is good. It came with a brake instead of a flash hider. This config was punishing to the shooters next to me but really tamed the recoil. I installed a US flash hider and was unpleasantly surprised by how much the recoil increased. It does look much better with the FH but if I had it to do over again I would leave it as is. CETME mags work fine in mine but are a bit loose. Accuracy is good and it is reliable with both SA surplus and Russian steel case.

I do not shoot it much these days. I would rather break out my Garands than the CETME quite frankly. If we get another semi auto scare later this year I will likely put it up on Gunbroker along with my only AK and a couple of AR's that rarely get shot.

Thanks to this thread I'm getting ready to knock the cobwebs out of my CETME one of these weekends if I can get some more ammo. I've got a couple hundred rounds of German DAG left and about the same amount of Israeli surplus. Walmart carry any decent 7.62x51?

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BCCI Life Member #2068

I have had a century cetme for over 16 years.It did have a ground bolt.So i got a good used bolt and added +4 rollers.It is a good build quality one.Sights were right on out of the box.Nice welds and very good wood stock..Also came with a new cetme barrel on it.I added a VG surplus G3 olive stock to it.Its been a good rifle.Never a FTF or FTE in over 1500 rounds.All in all its been a great rifle and fun to shoot

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I agree that CAI builds can be suspect. But most of the people bashing them have never owned one.

I too have had this one for many years. It was great out of the box, but I have replaced every part that is HK G3 compatible. The rear sight included. HK parts were pennies on the dollar, and guys like Robert at RTG had them all, cheap.

I like "working" on firearms, and learned much about these delayed roller locks. This one is a very excellent rifle. It has thousands of rounds through it, no problems. It's cool having so many furniture options too. I have wood, A2, slim and wide fore ends, and a Choate side folder, and lots of as new G3 mags. It now has a NOS FA bolt group, so it is sear ready when I get an extra $45,000 +

It's still not an HK, but it is a great rifle.

Jim

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WOW! One of my threads from a year and a half ago has been resurrected.
Just for the record, I passed on that rifle. When my friend passed away early this year, he had a Cetme and it could have easily been mine. I tried it, but didn't much care for the way it felt or handled. I'll stick with my M1As. I no longer have any interest in a Cetme.

Owned plenty of just about everything Century imported and hacked on. All sucked. Each and every one. At this point I won't even entertain the idea of owning a Century build no matter how cheap....still a waste of money.

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Cheap HK knockoff... buy the real deal HK 91 and you will be much happier.

There is a newer group of cetme rifles being put out. With all the issues with cetme . Cetme are having these rifle put together by PTR (used parts and what not). Roughly 600 dollars. Makes a good truck gun. A couple guys here have them work great 2 inch groups. How long till new parts needed repair issue's? I would stick to PTR or HK personally

The G3 was my service rifle and I had CETMEs and original HK rifles issued, also a selected sniper rifle with a Hensoldt 4x24.

The original Cetme manufactured rifles are everybit as good, or as bad, as HK. G3 rifles were accepted into service when they could group 120 mms at 100 meters, if they did better than 80mms they were selected to be fitted with a scope. I found that always rather unimpressive.

By the way the West German army manual ZDV 3/11 states a max combat distance of 300 meters for the G3 with iron sights but 400 meters for its successor, the G36 in 5.56 with the tiny scope. If memory does not betray me, we had to know the bullet drop up to 600 meters in sniper class.