The British Sten submachine gun

PALADIN85020 · #1 08-02-2016, 02:06 PM

This is a draft of a future article - as always, comments are welcome.

John

The British Sten submachine gun

As Britain entered World War II by declaring war on Nazi Germany in 1939, its military was woefully under-equipped with submachine guns. Their only indigenous design was the Lanchester, a wood-stocked 9mm near-copy of the German MP 28 II. The few of these available were both heavy and expensive to manufacture. America helped by providing Thompson submachine guns to their British cousins, but these were not nearly enough to meet demand. The need was evident for a lighter-weight cheap-to-manufacture 9mm subgun that could compete with the excellent German MP 38s and MP 40s, which were being used in large numbers as the war got underway. In 1941, the first of the Sten guns, the Mark I, was introduced.

The basic gun was developed from the Lanchester at Enfield Arsenal by Reginald V. Shepherd and Harold J. Turpin. The “Sten” name was a combination of the initials of the last names of these two men and the first two letters of Enfield. Because of its crude looks, it quickly acquired such nicknames as the “Stench gun,” the “plumbers delight,” or the “Woolworth gun” after the “five and dime” company that offered cheap merchandise. As first made, the gun had a wooden fore-end, a flash hider, a combination wood and stamped metal stock, and a wooden folding forward grip. A later version of the Mark I had a tubular steel stock with no wood component. The side-mounted double-column single-feed magazine mimicked the German subgun magazines. The Sten was selective fire, either full-automatic or semiautomatic from an open bolt. It was a simple blowback design with a tubular receiver, utilizing a heavy fixed-firing pin bolt and a spring for breech sealing. Still, it was more elaborate and expensive to manufacture than desired. Some attempts at producing it more economically resulted in the Mark I* (Mark I Star), which dispensed with the flash hider and substituted a stamped steel housing for the wooden fore-end. The wood forward grip was then quickly trashed as being unnecessary.

It was not long before another model of the Sten, the Mark II, was introduced. This further lightened and simplified the design. The operating handle was re-designed. The barrel and barrel jacket were both made shorter, with the barrel jacket only covering about half of the barrel. Several interchangeable butt stocks were used, the most common types being a metal “outline” version or a tubular type with a flat metal buttplate and a welded-in flat pistol grip with lightening holes. The former type is illustrated with this article on a Mark II. The Mark II also had an innovative feature in that the magazine housing could be rotated around the receiver to serve as a dust cover for the magazine opening and the ejection port. A selector button in the middle of the trigger group could be pushed back and forth laterally to provide for semiautomatic fire when pushed to the right, and automatic fire when pushed to the left. The left of the button was marked “R” for “repetition” and right of the button was marked “A” for “automatic.” The sights were fixed, calibrated for 100 yards. While there was no manual safety as such, the bolt could be locked open if the operating handle was lifted and inserted into an L-shaped portion of the handle slot in the receiver. The Mark II Sten became the most commonly used type during World War II, with over two million being produced. Here are its specifications. Caliber: 9mm Parabellum. Overall length: 30 inches. Barrel length: 7.75 inches. Magazine capacity: 32 rounds. Muzzle velocity: 1280 feet per second. Cyclic rate: 540 rounds per minute. Weight: 6.62 pounds.

A Mark II S was produced with a shorter barrel, a sound suppressor, and a lighter bolt with a shorter recoil spring. Since full-auto fire would quickly destroy the “silencer,” users were cautioned to use it in semiauto mode only, which would also be quite appropriate for clandestine use.

But wait, there’s more! An even cheaper and cruder version of the Sten was made as the Mark III. On this one, the receiver and barrel jacket were made as one long tube, and the magazine housing was welded in place. The barrel was not detachable. This was most certainly a step back in quality, but the manufacturing advantages were obvious. A Mark IV had two sub-models, and only roughly 2,000 were made. Here, the weapon was made into a more compact package. These had very short barrels and flash hiders, and were designed for use by special forces. The Model A had the trigger close to the magazine housing, in conjunction with a pistol grip. The Model B had the more conventional trigger placement. The cocking handle could be used to lock the bolt in the forward position. It appears that few if any Mark IVs were ever actually issued, however.

The last “standard” design was a return to some refinement, the Mark V. Here, a wood pistol grip was employed in conjunction with a wood stock. Early ones also had a wood vertical fore grip. The Mark Vs could also accommodate bayonets, and the front sights had protective “ears.” This version continued to be made until the adoption of the more sophisticated Sterling submachine guns in 1953.

The very last variety was the Mark VI. This was another short-barreled, suppressed gun. As with the Mark II S, semiauto-only operation was recommended.

The Stens were turned out by the millions from 1941 to 1954, with over four million being made in the ‘40s. Because their manufacture did not require a lot of sophisticated equipment, many parts were subcontracted to smaller companies that didn’t normally make munitions. In the U.K., the primary manufacturers were BSA (Birmingham Small Arms) in Tysely and Shirley, and the Royal Ordnance Factory at Fazakerley. The Sten was also made in Canada at the Long Branch Arsenal, located in Toronto.

There were some shortcomings, most of which revolved around the 32-round magazine, which was configured similarly to the 50-round Lanchester design. Not only was the double-column single-feed arrangement prone to jamming from internal friction when dirty, but it was very hard to load fully without a specially-provided magazine loader. This loader fit on the mouth of the magazine and had a pivoted finger-loop depressing lever; a later one had a simpler curved lever. The magazine for the subsequent Sterling subgun was a great improvement, using a roller-type magazine follower. That magazine was also curved to stack the rounds more uniformly, and it had a two-position feed. These things helped a lot with reliability and ease of loading. A safety problem with the Stens (until the advent of the Mark IV) was that if the bolt was in the forward position with a full magazine, the gun could fire if dropped on its butt. The bolt could move rearward enough by inertia to pick up a round from the magazine, chamber and fire it. Not good. Early Stens utilized bronze bolts, and the sear projection on these could wear easily, allowing inadvertent full-auto firing during employment. The selector buttons sometimes malfunctioned, resulting in the opposite type of fire than what was desired.

It’s strange that although the Sten was the Brits’ cheaply-made answer to the German MP 38 and MP 40 weapons, late in the war, the Germans also produced about 10,000 crude “last ditch” weapons for the volkssturm that were very similar to the Sten. These MP 3008s mostly differed in that they had bottom-position magazines. With a nod to the Brits, the U.S developed its M3 submachine gun, also designed for lighter weight and economy. Copies and variants of the Sten were produced by many nations, including Australia, where their version was called the Austen. It incorporated fore and aft vertical pistol grips, and was made at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory.

The Sten had a fairly good record in combat, and was prolifically used in both the European and Far East theaters during WWII. British and Canadian troops used them during the D-Day invasion of Normandy. Many were air-dropped to partisans in occupied France during the war, and there are numerous photographs of these arms being used in the liberation of Paris. Stens and Sten copies made around the world have been used in combat by many national and guerilla forces even to the present day. They were milestones in small arms design, and richly deserve to be called classics.

(c) 2016 JLM

NYlakesider · #2 08-02-2016, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PALADIN85020

This is a draft of a future article - as always, comments are welcome.

John

The British Sten submachine gun

As Britain entered World War II by declaring war on Nazi Germany in 1939, its military was woefully under-equipped with submachine guns. Their only indigenous design was the Lanchester, a wood-stocked 9mm near-copy of the German MP 28 II. The few of these available were both heavy and expensive to manufacture. America helped by providing Thompson submachine guns to their British cousins, but these were not nearly enough to meet demand. The need was evident for a lighter-weight cheap-to-manufacture 9mm subgun that could compete with the excellent German MP 38s and MP 40s, which were being used in large numbers as the war got underway. In 1941, the first of the Sten guns, the Mark I, was introduced.

The basic gun was developed from the Lanchester at Enfield Arsenal by R.V. Shepherd and H. J. Turpin. The “Sten” name was a combination of the initials of the last names of these two men and the first two letters of Enfield. Because of its crude looks, it quickly acquired such nicknames as the “Stench gun,” the “plumbers delight,” or the “Woolworth gun” after the “five and dime” company that offered cheap merchandise. As first made, the gun had a wooden fore-end, a flash hider, a combination wood and stamped metal stock, and a wooden folding forward grip. A later model had a tubular steel stock with no wood component. The side-mounted double-column single-feed magazine mimicked the German subgun magazines. The Sten was selective fire, either full-automatic or semiautomatic from an open bolt. It was a simple blowback design with a tubular receiver, utilizing a heavy fixed-firing pin bolt and a spring for breech sealing. Still, it was more elaborate and expensive to manufacture than desired. Some attempts at producing it more economically resulted in the Mark I*, which dispensed with the flash hider and substituted a stamped steel housing for the wooden fore-end. The wood forward grip was then quickly trashed as being unnecessary.

It was not long before another model of the Sten, the Mark II, was introduced. This further lightened and simplified the design. The operating handle was re-designed. The barrel and barrel jacket were both made shorter, with the barrel jacket only covering about half of the barrel. Several interchangeable butt stocks were used, the most common types being a metal “outline” version or a tubular type with a flat metal buttplate and a welded-in flat pistol grip with lightening holes. The former type is illustrated with this article on a Mark II. The Mark II also had an innovative feature in that the magazine housing could be rotated around the receiver to serve as a dust cover for the magazine opening and the ejection port. A selector button in the middle of the trigger group could be pushed back and forth laterally to provide for semiautomatic fire when pushed to the right, and automatic fire when pushed to the left. The left of the button was marked “R” for “repetition” and right of the button was marked “A” for “automatic.” The sights were fixed, calibrated for 100 yards. While there was no manual safety as such, the bolt could be locked open if the operating handle was lifted and inserted into an L-shaped portion of the handle slot in the receiver. The Mark II Sten became the most commonly used type during World War II, with over two million being produced. Here are its specifications. Caliber: 9mm Parabellum. Overall length: 30 inches. Barrel length: 7.75 inches. Magazine capacity: 32 rounds. Muzzle velocity: 1280 feet per second. Cyclic rate: 540 rounds per minute. Weight: 6.62 pounds.

A Mark II S was produced with a shorter barrel, a sound suppressor, and a lighter bolt with a shorter recoil spring. Since full-auto fire would quickly destroy the “silencer,” users were cautioned to use it in semiauto mode only, which would also be quite appropriate for clandestine use.

But wait, there’s more! An even cheaper and cruder version of the Sten was made as the Mark III. On this one, the receiver and barrel jacket were made as one long tube, and the magazine housing was welded in place. The barrel was not detachable. This was most certainly a step back in quality, but the manufacturing advantages were obvious. A Mark IV had two sub-models, and only roughly 2,000 were made. Here, the weapon was made into a more compact package. These had very short barrels and flash hiders, and were designed for use by special forces. The Model A had the trigger close to the magazine housing, in conjunction with a pistol grip. The Model B had the more conventional trigger placement. The cocking handle could be used to lock the bolt in the forward position. It appears that few if any Mark IVs were ever actually issued, however.

The last “standard” design was a return to some refinement, the Mark V. Here, a wood pistol grip was employed in conjunction with a wood stock. Early ones also had a wood vertical fore grip. The Mark Vs could also accommodate bayonets, and the front sights had protective “ears.” This version continued to be made until the adoption of the more sophisticated Sterling submachine guns in 1953.

The very last variety was the Mark VI. This was another short-barreled, suppressed gun. As with the Mark II S, semiauto-only operation was recommended.

The Stens were turned out by the millions from 1941 to 1954, with over four million being made in the ‘40s. Because their manufacture did not require a lot of sophisticated equipment, many parts were subcontracted to smaller companies that didn’t normally make munitions. In the U.K., the primary manufacturers were BSA (Birmingham Small Arms) in Tysely and Shirley, and the Royal Ordnance Factory at Fazakerley. The Sten was also made in Canada at the Long Branch Arsenal, located in Toronto.

There were some shortcomings, most of which revolved around the 32-round magazine, which was configured similarly to the 50-round Lanchester design. Not only was the double-column single-feed arrangement prone to jamming from internal friction when dirty, but it was very hard to load fully without a specially-provided magazine loader. This loader fit on the mouth of the magazine and had a pivoted finger-loop depressing lever. The magazine for the subsequent Sterling subgun was a great improvement, using a roller-type magazine follower. That magazine was also curved to stack the rounds more uniformly, and it had a two-position feed. These things helped a lot with reliability and ease of loading. A safety problem with the Stens (until the advent of the Mark IV) was that if the bolt was in the forward position with a full magazine, the gun could fire if dropped on its butt. The bolt could move rearward enough by inertia to pick up a round from the magazine, chamber and fire it. Not good. Early Stens utilized bronze bolts, and the sear projection on these could wear easily, allowing inadvertent full-auto firing during employment. The selector buttons sometimes malfunctioned, resulting in the opposite type of fire than what was desired.

It’s strange that although the Sten was the Brits’ answer to the German MP 38 and MP 40 weapons, late in the war, the Germans also produced about 10,000 crude “last ditch” weapons for the volkssturm that were very similar to the Sten. These MP 3008s mostly differed in that they had bottom-position magazines. With a nod to the Brits, the U.S developed its M3 submachine gun, also designed for lighter weight and economy. Copies and variants of the Sten were produced by many nations, including Australia, where their version was called the Austen. It incorporated fore and aft vertical pistol grips, and was made at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory.

The Sten had a fairly good record in combat, and was prolifically used in both the European and Far East theaters during WWII. British and Canadian troops used them during the D-Day invasion of Normandy. Many were air-dropped to partisans in occupied France during the war, and there are numerous photographs of these arms being used in the liberation of Paris. Stens and Sten copies have been used in combat by many national and guerilla forces even to the present day. They were milestones in small arms design, and richly deserve to be called classics.

(c) 2016 JLM

By coincidence just last night I was watching a show about WW2 and in specific the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich.

The "show expert" a retired German Special Forces leader said the Sten was a notorious jammier and basically unreliable and was the worst gun to use in such a important event. Heydrich was not shot as The Sten jammed but was in fact killed by a bomb that blew chunks of car interior into the SS leader.

Your thoughts please!

PALADIN85020 · #3 08-02-2016, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYlakesider

By coincidence just last night I was watching a show about WW2 and in specific the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich.

The "show expert" a retired German Special Forces leader said the Sten was a notorious jammier and basically unreliable and was the worst gun to use in such a important event. Heydrich was not shot as The Sten jammed but was in fact killed by a bomb that blew chunks of car interior into the SS leader.

Your thoughts please!

As I said in the article, the magazine was prone to jamming when dirty. Even then, a double-column single-feed magazine was a bad idea. The double-columned rounds had a traffic jam when trying to merge to a single feed point, and there was a great deal of stress on the feed lips. For this reason, stamped steel reinforcement plates were welded on the sides of the mouth of the magazine so the lips would not spread.

This type of feed originated with the German MP 28 II, a pre-war design. It was copied and used in the MP 38 and the MP 40, so that the magazines could be interchangeable. The British Lanchester used exactly the same arrangement, since it was a direct copy of the MP 28 II. When the Sten was designed, this same type of magazine was specified, with the thinking that German magazines could be used in a pinch. In the U.S., the M3 and M3A1 "grease guns" copied that same magazine design in .45 ACP. The grease guns could also fire 9mm with a switch of the barrel and a magazine well adapter which would allow use of the Sten magazines. A single feed point was necessary for this adaptability.

The Thompson mags were done right with a double right-left feed point. Less friction, for sure, and the Thompson was designed so that its feed area was wide and funneled to use that concept.

The British recognized their error with the Sten magazine, and the later Sterling mag used a double feed point, a roller follower, and a curved magazine body so that the tapered 9mm rounds would stack more uniformly in the magazine. The Sterling is regarded even today as one of the most reliable SMGs ever made.

In later years, the MAC 10 used modified grease gun mags, and the same problems ensued there. The main reason those mags were used were that they were readily available, nothing more than that.

The Sten had its problems, yes. But it was one of those "good enough" designs that was used all over the place during the war. If the mags were kept clean and properly lubed, they did work, even if they weren't an optimum design.

John

paul s · #4 08-02-2016, 04:34 PM

Had a STEN for a few years, fun shooter but fussy about mags, some would work and other would not. At the time they were cheap $3 or so each so no big deal. Now for the M3 grease gun, thats my BABY! Never owned one but acces to two over the years and shot them a lot, 2500+rnds, never had a jam! Very easy to control and a joy to shoot. M3 mags were built like tanks with Yankee know how and did not suffer the problems the Brits had with the STEN mags. Thats all I know.

CajunBass · #5 08-02-2016, 06:03 PM

When I was in high-school, one of my teachers, was an old WWII Marine, who had fought his way across half the Pacific. He was a history/economics teacher, so he had a number of opportunities to bring in his collection of war trophies. Japanese flags, rifles, pistols, helmets, knives, grenades, bayonets, etc.. But the "jump out at you" centerpiece was a British Sten gun he'd gotten somewhere.

Can't imagine a teacher doing that today.

lawandorder · #6 08-02-2016, 06:16 PM

Have had opportunities to fire quite a few FA weapons, and with out a doubt the Sten was at the bottom of the list of enjoyable ones, but it did fulfill the need John illustrates.

les.b · #7 08-02-2016, 06:34 PM

John:

Like Paul, I owned a Sten MK II for several years. I sold it when I was rasing funds for a Class 3 AKM. It was one of the mildest shooting autos that I ever fired. One of my buddies was a Class 3 dealer at the time, and he would get in lots of different autos, just to play with, although he did make a pretty good business out of it.

Anyway, I had the opportunity to shoot many different autos over the years, and owned a few, still have two different ones.

The Sten had almost no recoil, and a very low cyclic rate, I'm thinking around 450 RPM, if I remember correctly. You could definitely hold it on target and stay right there, no muzzle climb at all. I had 8 or 9 mags, and they all seemed to work fine. I did keep it clean, so I don't know how it would have performed in dirty or muddy or freezing temps.

Wish I had kept it. But it was probably the ugliest gun I ever owned. Well, that was before the Glocks came out. (Just kidding, Glock guys).

Definitely looked like something that you could make in your home workshop, but it was inexpensive, and worked rather well, at least mine did.

By the way....Excellent article, as usual!!!

Best Regards, Les

Texas Star · #8 08-02-2016, 06:40 PM

The British did use the Thompson extensively, and many soldiers were loath to turn them in for Stens.

In, "Man-Hunt in Kenya", Inspector Ian Henderson, GM, told of using the Patchett SMG in hunting Mau-Mau in Kenya in the 1950's. The Patchett was the prior version of what became the Sterling.

If you want to see Stens in a movie apart from the usual war films try, "Safari", starring Victor Mature and Janet Leigh. Set in Kenya during the Mau-Mau Emergency, it features a white hunter seeking revenge for the terrorists killing his son and his housekeeper. But watch carefully: his MK II Sten sometimes becomes a MK III! Interestingly, Miss Leigh's rifle is a Winchester M-94, not the usual safari rifle. A good movie that I saw as a kid, and I bought the DVD a couple of years ago.

John, this is a nice article. All I can add is to suggest saying how well yours shoots, if it's not a DEWAT.

Glashaus · #9 08-02-2016, 06:43 PM

Nice write up, I too have shot a Sten and they are a lot of fun! Very slow RPM and very controllable!

PALADIN85020 · #10 08-02-2016, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Star

John, this is a nice article. All I can add is to suggest saying how well yours shoots, if it's not a DEWAT.

I have shot a Sten in the past, and it evidently had a good mag; it shot well, easily, with a slow cyclic rate. Not the handiest thing in the world; much prefer the Sterling if you have to have a side-mounted magazine. It's almost embarrassing, how ugly it is. If I were a Brit, I'd be very reluctant to trade in my Thompson for one. Like comparing a Ferrari to a Yugo!

I do not own the Mark II illustrated, and have not shot this particular gun, so I can't comment on it. The owner does keep it in great condition.

John

6518John · #11 08-02-2016, 09:49 PM

"The sights were fixed, calibrated for 100 yards."

This would not be my idea of a 100 yard gun.

Cyrano · #12 08-02-2016, 11:58 PM

There are actually two varities of magazine filler, both illustrated here. Having used them both, I like the smaller one better. There's also a sling for the Sten. It ha a ring at one end that goes into the holes in the barrel housing. I know it's correct for I showed it to a French friend who recalls the Tommies coming through his village in WW II with Stens slung like this.

The 50 round magazine for the Lanchester works fine in the Sten. Here's the Sten magazine pouch and the Lanchester. I have a bunch of magazines for my Sten and have fired it extensively. Never had any feeding problems but I kept my gun and mags clean and oiled.

jeeps · #13 08-03-2016, 06:23 AM

Biggest cause of jams was holding the magazine,your suppose to hold the perforated barrel jacket like a carbine. I have shot thousands of Rds out of the Sten Mk - 2 without problem.

da gimp · #14 08-03-2016, 07:44 AM

nice articles John...and Cyr thanks for the nice piece showing the different mag loaders, sling & pouches too.

Murdock · #15 08-03-2016, 09:39 AM

I always enjoy the WWI and WWII historical threads. Thanks!

DeathGrip · #16 08-03-2016, 11:11 AM

There are parts kits available and receivers. A handy person can build one. My friend has built a couple and says the next one he builds he's gonna clock the mag to make it a bottom feeder.

PALADIN85020 · #17 08-03-2016, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrano

There are actually two varities of magazine filler, both illustrated here. Having used them both, I like the smaller one better. There's also a sling for the Sten. It ha a ring at one end that goes into the holes in the barrel housing. I know it's correct for I showed it to a French friend who recalls the Tommies coming through his village in WW II with Stens slung like this.

The 50 round magazine for the Lanchester works fine in the Sten. Here's the Sten magazine pouch and the Lanchester. I have a bunch of magazines for my Sten and have fired it extensively. Never had any feeding problems but I kept my gun and mags clean and oiled.

Thanks for the info on the two versions of the loader. I incorporated that. The sling for the Sterling is similar (if not identical), with a clip that is designed to fit through any two of the holes in the barrel sleeve.

John

PALADIN85020 · #18 08-03-2016, 01:22 PM

In the article I made reference to the "German Sten," the MP 3008. Here's a picture. The parentage is quite obvious. The MP 3008 took the standard MP 38/MP 40 mags. I'm not sure of this, but I think those mags and the Sten mags were interchangeable. The main difference between the German gun and the British gun was the orientation of the magazine.

John

kaaskop49 · #19 08-03-2016, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeeps

Biggest cause of jams was holding the magazine,your suppose to hold the perforated barrel jacket like a carbine. I have shot thousands of Rds out of the Sten Mk - 2 without problem.

Good point! There was an article on the Sten several years ago in the AR. The problem of jamming was mentioned and, as usual, blamed on the magazine. Interestingly, soon after, the AR printed a letter from a former WWII British soldier with Sten experience. He said the rotating magazine housing was the main cause of jams as it tended to loosen under repeated rotation of the housing. IIRC, switching the housing's position was to prevent crud from entering the action/chamber.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Cyrano · #20 08-03-2016, 03:04 PM

Here's a really ugly dude shooting a Stirling. At the insistance of his friend he had to shoot it one handed. The recoil is minimal. From the size of his nose, you can tell it's Cyrano. That's a 1955, right hand drive, Land Rover in the background. The machine gun is a Bren in 308, not 303.

les.b · #21 08-03-2016, 03:15 PM

Cyrano:

Now that's a proper vehicle for going to the range!!! What a find. I've only seen those in African Safari movies!!! Are you sure that Victor Mature or Clark Gable is t somewhere around there?? Nice guns, too, Cyrano!! Like I said above, I've had a Sten, but only dreamed of a Sterling.

Best Regards, Les

ACP230 · #22 08-03-2016, 09:43 PM

I have seen the name written as STen.
S and T for the designers and en for Enfield.

Of course, I can't recall where I saw that now.

HOUSTON RICK · #23 08-03-2016, 11:47 PM

There was a war going on, they were not going to issue Beretta Imperiale Montecarlo Shotguns to everyone (you get the idea - forget they were Italian). Sten was an easily produced weapon to fill a big gap.

Cyrano · #24 08-03-2016, 11:57 PM

Mk II Stens were also produced in Canada and New Zealand (two different models of the Mk II in New Zealand). There's a great book on the Sten: 'The Sten Machine Carbine' by Peter Laidler, Collector Grade Publications.

jimmyj · #25 08-04-2016, 07:46 AM

My Experience :
In the early 1990s I was a Patrol Deputy with a small rural county Sheriffs Department . A new hire young Deputy was dating the second in command major. Thus He was allowed entre to most of the offices. In the armory in a dark corner he discovered a cardboard box of "Funny Looking" gun parts and was permitted to check out the box. He bought the box to me and I assembled the weapon which turned out to be a "Sten Gun" from along ago drug raid. I disassembled the Sten and He took it to a local Auto Parts store and had it "Dipped" in a vat (?) that removed the old painted finish. He then sprayed it with dollar store flat black paint and had me reassembled it. The Department practice ammo was reloads using home cast lead round nose bullets from a "Buddy" of the Sheriff. These reloads were the dirty and worst reloads I had ever seen. Most of the Deputies would not use these reloads in their personal or issue weapons. The Sten fired these reloads with negative problems and was easy to hold on target.

jag312 · #26 03-04-2019, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeeps

Biggest cause of jams was holding the magazine,your suppose to hold the perforated barrel jacket like a carbine. I have shot thousands of Rds out of the Sten Mk - 2 without problem.

The proper way to hold a STEN.

walkinghorse · #27 03-04-2019, 03:23 PM

Anyone know why the side magazine orientation was chosen?
The German similar type is to the bottom.
Wonder if the side orientation of the magazine could have contributed to feeding issues?

PALADIN85020 · #28 03-04-2019, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkinghorse

Anyone know why the side magazine orientation was chosen?
The German similar type is to the bottom.
Wonder if the side orientation of the magazine could have contributed to feeding issues?

The side loading concept, first used by the Brits in the Lanchester SMG, was apparently adopted because it allowed the user to get closer to the ground when it was fired from the prone position. Also, the weight of the rounds in the magazine (vertical orientation) would be detrimental when and if the mag spring was weak and/or took a set from compression when the mag was left loaded for a long time.

At any rate, that was the thinking. By the way, here is a photo taken during the liberation of Paris during WWII. The resistance fighter is correctly avoiding holding his Sten by the magazine, but it's not clear if his finger is on the trigger. The American lieutenant (probably a newly minted butter bar) is violating protocol with his finger on the trigger of his .45 while pointing it at the resistance guy...

John

triaxle · #29 03-04-2019, 04:20 PM

Years back I remember a guy who flew C- 47 DC-3 over the hump ., he said if the natives waived they dumped Stens out the back to them , and if they shot we turn and got the hell out of their . Back then I guess they just came back state side , no one checked like now , he brought quit a few home . they looked new to me Long Branch 1943 .loop stock , and small mag loaders .

colt_saa · #30 03-04-2019, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeeps

Biggest cause of jams was holding the magazine,your suppose to hold the perforated barrel jacket like a carbine. I have shot thousands of Rds out of the Sten Mk - 2 without problem.

This issue is not limited to older SMGs

I had the same issue with one of my MP5s on a demo day. It worked 100% for me and other attendees but was a jam-a-matic in the hands of some of the attendees.

We finally noticed that the folks having the jamming issues were using the magazine as a fore-grip while the folks having no troubles were correctly gripping the fore-end for they second hand

Absalom · #31 03-04-2019, 05:05 PM

John:

Have you ever come across anything definite about the finish or finishes used on the Sten?

In conjunction with determining the exact type of finish on wartime British revolvers, I’ve been a bit frustrated. Without wanting to offend anyone in particular, the knowledge pool about finishes among British militaria collectors seems exceedingly shallow, to put it politely, and nobody really knows what they‘re talking about.

The stovepaint-based suncorite, which seems not to have been used on handguns until post-war FTRs, has been mentioned as first appearing as the original finish on Stens in later 1944, although I don‘t recall the sources. Do you know anything further?

Buford57 · #32 03-04-2019, 07:39 PM

Great article. Takes me back. A MKII was the only Class III I ever owned. It was fun while it lasted, but I acquired it in the last year before the kids started coming. In my mind it's like shooting muzzle loaders: some fall in love with it and others try it and say "well, I guess I can scratch that off the list". I'm in the second group with full auto stuff.

Texas Star · #33 03-05-2019, 01:00 AM

My son used a MP-5 to good effect in Iraq. I have a video of him firing it, but he has asked me not to post it. Doesn't want images with him or his family on the Net.

He found the gun to be quite reliable. Says the 9mm cartridge is more effective than many claim. He used it in both the MP-5 and in Beretta and Browning pistols.

In post No. 8 above, I mentioned a movie, "Safari". It's now on YouTube in the original English. (It's also been posted in Spanish. I thought member Leonardo Carrillo in Argentina might want to see it in his language.) Watch as Victor Mature's Sten changes from a MK II in some scenes to a MK III in others!

It's a very good film, made by some of the people who later made the James Bond films. Here it is:

PALADIN85020 · #34 03-05-2019, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

John:

Have you ever come across anything definite about the finish or finishes used on the Sten?

In conjunction with determining the exact type of finish on wartime British revolvers, I’ve been a bit frustrated. Without wanting to offend anyone in particular, the knowledge pool about finishes among British militaria collectors seems exceedingly shallow, to put it politely, and nobody really knows what they‘re talking about.

The stovepaint-based suncorite, which seems not to have been used on handguns until post-war FTRs, has been mentioned as first appearing as the original finish on Stens in later 1944, although I don‘t recall the sources. Do you know anything further?

I've not thoroughly researched this subject. I do know that the wartime Mark IV Webleys were marked "WAR FINISH" on the left side of the frame. Webley was proud of its commercial-finish guns, and wanted it understood that the finish on these wartime revolvers was an exception and not up to its usual standards. I think this had more to do with lack of final finishing polish than the method used for chemical color treatment. I'm not aware of any specific standard British WWII finishing techniques.

John

jag312 · #35 03-05-2019, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkinghorse

Anyone know why the side magazine orientation was chosen?
The German similar type is to the bottom.
Wonder if the side orientation of the magazine could have contributed to feeding issues?

The German MP18 was the firearm that started the side magazine configuration. Rather than designing a magazine specifically for the MP18, they improvised the usage of the Luger snail drum magazine. While the snail drum magazine worked in a vertical position for a semiauto pistol, there were feeding problems for the relatively rapid fire MP18 when used in a vertical position. Mounting the magazine in a horizontal position minimized the feeding problems. When the MP28 was designed, the horizontal configuration was kept. So when the British copied the MP28 as the Lanchester, if the horizontal configuration worked for the Germans, then it must be right.

Texas Star · #36 03-05-2019, 03:26 PM

Re John's Post no. 34, I hope that all here will have the opportunity to see Webley guns in normal peacetime finish. Their bluing was sometimes superior to what S&W used at the time, especially in the early to mid 1950's.

Don't judge them by the finish on their military series of revolvers, Marks 1-6. Their commercial guns were far better finished. Models like the WG and the Wilkinson-Webleys were as well finished as anything.

Geoffrey Boothroyd told me that if the British had made more movies about their people in India and their other colonies, the Webley would be as well known here as is the Colt SAA.

One good film to see Webleys in is, "Northwest Frontier", starring Kenneth More (not Moore) and Deborah Kerr. I think it's still on YouTube. I saw it in a theater in high school, and I have the DVD. Look carefully and you can see the captain's MK VI change in one scene to an earlier Mark with a four-inch barrel!

Actually, he couldn't have had a MK VI, because the film was set in 1905! But it could be standing in for a commercial Army Model, popular with officers buying their own revolvers, the norm until at least WWI. The Army Model looks like a MK VI, but has a front sight like a MK IV. It was for private purchase, not an issued model.

With changes in the world, movies like, Zulu, Northwest Frontier, and Safari probably can't be made today, and Lawrence of Arabia would also be difficult to make. Such films are among my favorites. See them when you can, and reflect on how the world has changed!

BTW, the officers in, Zulu had Webley MK VI guns. I guess the prop house couldn't find models suitable to a movie set in 1879...

On a contrary note, in TV's, The Lost World (1999-2002), the MKVI was rare. Usually subbed for with MK IV .38's. Lord Roxton's nickel guns were the only MK VI .455's I recall seeing on that Aussie-made series.

Guevera · #37 03-05-2019, 10:40 PM

It's not like the good old days when the Sten truck came by and it was Sten guns for everybody!

LoboGunLeather · #38 03-05-2019, 11:09 PM

Good article. I noticed that you mentioned US-provided Thompson SMG's being provided. While a little bit off the topic of the Sten guns, it would be easy to insert a line or two about the overall lack of arms for home defense units and the drive (assisted by the NRA) resulting in thousands of privately owned rifles, shotguns, and pistols provided by US citizens for use by the British anticipating a German invasion.

It might just be me, but I can't pass up an opportunity to publicize the unintended consequences of gun control laws!

jimmyj · #39 03-05-2019, 11:20 PM

What model Sten had the butt stock that was a round tube with a flat metal butt ? (like a long "T")

PALADIN85020 · #40 03-06-2019, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather

Good article. I noticed that you mentioned US-provided Thompson SMG's being provided. While a little bit off the topic of the Sten guns, it would be easy to insert a line or two about the overall lack of arms for home defense units and the drive (assisted by the NRA) resulting in thousands of privately owned rifles, shotguns, and pistols provided by US citizens for use by the British anticipating a German invasion.

It might just be me, but I can't pass up an opportunity to publicize the unintended consequences of gun control laws!

The last article in my book 101 Classic Firearms was titled "Help! Send Guns!". It describes the British gunless situation in WWII when they faced a probable German invasion, already plotted as "Operation Sea Lion." Their full-page plea for guns was published in the November 1940 American Rifleman. Americans did respond with thousands of personally-owned pistols, rifles, shotguns and binoculars. Very few were ever returned to their rightful owners, and most wound up melted for scrap or sunk in the ocean after the war. It's an object lesson - people denied firearms are designated as subjects, but people with the right to keep and bear arms are called citizens.

My final sentence in the book was If America ever had to appeal for arms to defend itself, exactly to whom would we turn???

John

inspcalahan · #41 03-06-2019, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrano

Here's a really ugly dude shooting a Stirling. At the insistance of his friend he had to shoot it one handed. The recoil is minimal. From the size of his nose, you can tell it's Cyrano. That's a 1955, right hand drive, Land Rover in the background. The machine gun is a Bren in 308, not 303.

I want that vehicle. I'll give you guns. Not all but, many.

inspcalahan · #42 03-06-2019, 12:16 AM

John - outstanding writeup at usual! History is best shared. Keep them coming!

KEN L · #43 03-06-2019, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PALADIN85020

Thanks for the info on the two versions of the loader. I incorporated that. The sling for the Sterling is similar (if not identical), with a clip that is designed to fit through any two of the holes in the barrel sleeve.

John

John

Great article on the Sten.
Interestingly, the Sten mag will fit & function in the Sterling, but not the other way around. It was designed that way.

Absalom · #44 03-06-2019, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyrano

Here's a really ugly dude shooting a Stirling. At the insistance of his friend he had to shoot it one handed. The recoil is minimal. From the size of his nose, you can tell it's Cyrano. That's a 1955, right hand drive, Land Rover in the background.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by inspcalahan

I want that vehicle. I'll give you guns. Not all but, many.

Unfortunately, Cyrano passed away the year after that post.

Great guy, a real loss to the forum. Extremely knowledgeable especially about weapons of this time period of the world wars.

6518John · #45 03-06-2019, 03:13 AM

I love seeing his old posts, but it makes me profoundly sad every time one recycles back to through the forum.

Absalom · #46 03-06-2019, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PALADIN85020

....
I do know that the wartime Mark IV Webleys were marked "WAR FINISH" on the left side of the frame. Webley was proud of its commercial-finish guns, and wanted it understood that the finish on these wartime revolvers was an exception and not up to its usual standards. I think this had more to do with lack of final finishing polish than the method used for chemical color treatment. I'm not aware of any specific standard British WWII finishing techniques.

John

Thanks for your reply, John.

I'm familiar with the Webley war finish, which was indeed nothing but their standard bluing but without surface prep or polishing. The first two photos attached show a comparison between a war finish Mk IV shipped 11/1941 and a commercial-finish Mk IV shipped 1/1951.

I'm more interested in the Enfield finish, which quite clearly was some type of parkerizing-like finish. The third photo shows an original-finish No 2 Mk I** from 1/1943.

inspcalahan · #47 03-06-2019, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

Unfortunately, Cyrano passed away the year after that post.

Great guy, a real loss to the forum. Extremely knowledgeable especially about weapons of this time period of the world wars.

Thanks for the reminder. I now remember hearing that. I got caught up in the resurrected thread. Too bad there wasn't a way that it would highlight the thread if it was more than say 6 months old, so it would be immediately apparent. oh well.