Could anyone here give me an idea of a fair price to pay for a Winchester Model 12 16 gauge shotgun? Field grade with 30" solid rib barrel and 2 3/4" chamber. Early 40's gun. Good condition but needs a new buttplate or pad to make it look right. Thanks!

I saw one sell in an auction Saturday, and it brought $375, but the condition was just so-so. Very little bluing left, but locked up solid.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

the solid rib barrels are the most desirable, then vent ribs with plain barrels the least desirable. Skeet & imp. cylinder chokes are most desirable with mod & full chokes being the most common. If it is a modified barrel or more open.. it ought to be a humdinger of a pheasant gun.. though some people like the full choked guns for both pheasant & long range dove shooting.

__________________
be safe,enjoylife,journey well

Just got a plain barrel full choke, field gun. They were asking $700 for it.

I have a field grade M12 16 ga made in 1913 that is tight but has that well worn but well cared for look that I dearly love in a vintage shotgun . Cost me $ 325.00 5 years ago . I would not pay much more than that unless it was near mint. There are a lot of M12 16's on the market and $700 for a field grade is way too high.

Eddie

__________________
Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

You're gonna need that shotgun.

Here's my 1947 field grade.

In my neck of the woods M-12s in 12&16g field grade in good
condition are $350 average. 20g are at least $100-150 more.
28g still off the charts. The market for anything less that mint
or NIB collectors guns is limited. The new generation would rather have a space gun type or para military style shotgun. Last
year I was at a auction, nice 16g m12 came up and went for
$365, the next gun up was a Moss 500?/ camo- brought $450.
Us old farts that loved these guns are getting thin, so M12 is a
classic that is actually coming down in price. Some times I think
it is time to turn in my spurs, when a Moss sells higher than a
Win 12, the pump shotgun that every other pump was judged by.

I bought a M-12 in 16 gauge in a STL LGS about 4 years ago. It was around $300 plus or minus. It is very clean but a full choke plain bbl. Again, very nice and solid.

At that same LGS I bought 2 M-12's in 12 gauge. Both plain bbl's. One was a 1927 30" full and the other was a late 40's 3". I gave $225 for the 1927 and $250 for the 3". The 3" had a small crack that was repaired and the 2 3/4" had bad wood and no blue left but was mechanically perfect. I found an old Sile NIB replacement walnut wood and blued the gun. Sharp old gun. I know it is now not original but all the original had been worn off years ago, I found a 12 gauge 1918 riot front half at a small gun show and fit it to the gun for night duty.

I have owned quite a few in 16 gauge, up until maybe 7 or so years ago the 16 was really cheap.

They pretty much go begging for owners unless they're a riot configuration. Then everyone wants it. Many fine game guns are simply cut down to make them sell,,and they do sell well and for good profits for the work involved.

Unappreciated or just not up with the times,,what ever the issue is the M12 and the rest of the classic pumps and autos are just not good sellers. You can find a lot of fine examples for very good prices in that bunch. But don't expect to squirrel them away and make a million bucks. Just enjoy them while you can. It's a hobby after all.
That's why my Marlin 43T, Stevens 200 pump and 520, Rem 10T, Win 42, FNA5 and Sportsman 48 see a lot of range time. Could care less about values at this point. I just like 'em.

I got one of each

__________________
Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

I recall that most of these old 16 gauge 12s had 2 9/16" chambers, vs. the 2 3/4" seen today. I know that they can easily be opened up to fire modern shells--there may be some pressure issues when firing 2 3/4" shells in unmodified guns.

I bought a field grade 16 gauge this year for less than 250.00. A nice gun, it goes with my 20 gauge rather nicely. The 20 has been with me since 1963, it has aged better than I have.

By the way, the above photos are beautiful.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

It seems that there are a couple of themes running through this thread:
1) Value of the Model 12 has dropped quite a bit in recent years;
2) The quality of the Model 12 was superb, regardless of configuration;
3) Most people want a home defense gun or something new made out of composite and steel.
To me, this seems like a perfect opportunity for those of us who appreciate that older craftsmanship to obtain a fabulous firearm at bargain prices!

The 16-gauge seems to be experiencing something of a resurgence in popularity. At least in my neck of the woods. And they seem to sell quickly. A nice pre-'64 Model 12 in that gauge would go for $400-$500 around here, perhaps a bit more with with nicely grained stock and forearm.

Hard to find shells and/or reloading components in my neck of the woods. The only 16 gauge shells that I have are some high brass ones given to me long ago. They kick like the proverbial mule. :-)

Mine has the short chamber so I either shoot 2 1/2 RSC shells or load my own on a MEC 650 with the short kit added. I would not open the chamber out to shoot 2 3/4 . The 2 9/16 / 2 5/8 chamber will handle the longer shell but it will not eject the fired case as the opening in the frame is also not long enough to allow the case to clear once it is opened. Rabbits and Quail can't tell the difference in a 2.5 and a 2.75 shell. I have a short barrel M12 in 12 ga made in 1917 for my house gun that has fired many rounds of 2 3/4 baby mag #4's as well as 00 Buck without a hiccup. It may have been converted long before I got it but if that is so I can not tell it.

Eddie

__________________
Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

Made the guy an offer, but he said he might consider it. Buttstock had been shortened and an oversized buttplate had been fitted. Would need to put some money into it to make it look right. Otherwise, not too bad. Will give him time to think about the offer. No big deal if it doesn't work out.

The chamber area of that barrel is so overbuilt with good steel that there is no problem that will develop from reaming out the 2 9/16" chamber to a 2 3/4" chamber. But, I would take that one step further and use a "Tapered Forcing Cone" reamer available from a few reamer makers. It actually will reduce the apparent chamber pressure and usually cause the shotgun to pattern better. I have those reamers in 20 ga. and 12 ga. but there was never enough demand for the 16 ga. for me to get that one.

The producers of firearms are a 'hidebound' group in some design areas. The standard chamber for shotshells is a 'stepped' design that originated sometime in the late 1800s for paper hulled shells with the roll crimp. The crimps used now are longer and the pattern developed suffers from the shot and wadding being swaged down as they pass that old step in the chamber to barrel transition. Most of the shotgun barrel manufacturers increased the length to accommodate the longer crimp, but kept the 'Step Design'. I never reamed out a standard 12 or 20 ga. barrel to the Tapered Forcing Cone design and failed to improve the pattern.

On my 16th birthday, my Father gave me a slightly used Win. M 12 in 16 ga. Of course it had a fixed choke in Modified. That worked out perfectly for Nevada Quail, Pheasant and Chucker. I kidded my Dad that it was too bad that model Winchester wasn't a Model 16. Then that birthday would have been a 16....16.....16. He didn't think that was funny because he was a dedicated Winchester Model 12 man.

Usually the 20 ga. buttstock is a direct swap for the 16 ga. as they were built on the same frame. The 20 ga. buttstock is readily available.

As far as problems ejecting a 2 3/4" fired hull from a shotgun converted from 2 9/16" is easily solved by milling out the leading edge of the port by 1/16" and the rear edge by the same amount. But, I would try it first as most I ever handled would eject the longer hull just fine.

That's useful information. And someone else mentioned the scarcity of 16-gauge ammo. Where I live...lower NC Piedmont area...the resurgence of the 16-gauge has seen wider availability of ammo. I haven't noticed any shortage of the stuff in the LGSs I frequent.

This is right, I've changed out quite a few.

Right now Midway USA is selling Boyd's M-12 stocks that are listed as 12 gauge. I ordered one to replace the cracked and bobbed off stock on mine.

It is distinctly for a 20 or 16 as the wood was too small at the action. The metal stood out proud. I called and they checked some of the other stocks, all were the same size.

So if someone needs to restock your 20 or 16 now is the time to do it.

They returned my money. I found a Sile replacement set. NIB, Italian. Nice walnut. I was just lucky.

If it is a early 1940s Model 12 16 gauge then it should have a 2 3/4 inch chamber. The switch to 2 3/4 in chambers happened near serial number 500,000.

Value wise it gets a big plus for the solid rib and 30 inch barrel. The cut stock is pretty huge negative moving it to a shooter grade gun. If the condition is decent a $300 to 400 price would be reasonable.

I have always thought the 16 Gauge Winchester Model 12 was pick of the litter. They tend to weigh about 6 1/4 to 6 1/2 pounds. They carry, swing and point like a dream. It doesn't get much better in Model 12s.

I sure love my 16 Gauge Model 12, manufactured in 1955. It feeds and ejects both Federal and Herters shells perfectly.

__________________
Bill Bates

When it comes to 2 3/4 inch 16 gauge ammo the Cabela's Herters shells are a great value, especially if you buy when they are on sale or combined the with a free shipping deal. Often you can get them down under $6 a box.

They are a great shell. They use Cheddite hulls. They burn clean and pattern well in my 16s. With a bit of searching you can find a bunch of positive reviews, especially with those shooting 16 gauge guns.

And the disclaimer, yeah I work under the Cabela's big green roof.

__________________
Bill Bates

My 20 has a short stock, (was that way when I bought it), with a recoil pad. Always worked good for me if it was really cold and I had to wear lots of layers. It fits my wife perfectly since she is rather short. She killed more doves on her first hunt than lots of the "Bubbas" did.

I do need to replace it with an original stock and plate.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

When I was a young teenager I had a 3" M-12 / rib. Those M IV
3" really belted me. My oldman was the gentleman bird hunter
type, and took his bird hunting and dogs very seriously. He was
always bawling me out for sky busting pheasants other hunters
had flushed. You didn't shoot a bird, unless the dogs pointed it.
You had to let the bird gain some distance before you touched
him off. If you shot to quick a load of 3" #6s would destroy the
bird. Wish I had kept it, but traded it off for a M70 220swift.

Leon since I did not use the Midway Boyds stock I don't remember if it was like an old original with more drop or straighter.

Still a great way to replace a broke or bobbed one.

Mine fires any brand 2 3/4 shell just fine but fails to eject any of them. I had the same problem with a Browning A5 years ago.I would not want to mill the ejection port on my first year gun . I know it's not in high grade collector condition but it has survived for 103 years without being milled and I hope it goes another 103 without it. I would however not hesitate to have the forcing cone tapered if there was someone in my area I could trust to do it correctly. My area has plenty of hacks but no real gunsmiths anymore .

Eddie

__________________
Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

I only shoot 16ga. I was lucky to find a Model 1912 16ga made in the first year of issue...1914. It looks new! I shoot Remington and Federal shells and they work fine. I do not believe it has been altered.

__________________
A Snider squibbed n the Jungle