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  #101  
Old 01-09-2017, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian in Oregon View Post
Your assertion only works if you like the Bravo Company furniture that comes standard on the Saint. Otherwise you'll spend an extra $100 upgrading the Saint as well.
Thank you captain obvious. LOL I cannot count how many times in this thread I mentioned that you have to like the BCM furniture vs the GI stocks on the Sport II for it to have value. The furniture on the Sport II is garbage IMHO. It is functional but barely. Almost anything is an improvement. YMMV.

I happen to like BCM stuff so I might see more value than you do. I fully understand that. I guess I just don't understand the love affair with the Sport II if you are paying over $500 for it. It is a bare bones budget rifle you could put together for under $400 but people talk about it like it is gold.

At $500 which it is once again selling at it is a decent value for a complete rifle but it is what it is. It is a cheap version of a Colt M4 which has has a lot of corners cut to meet a price point. It is what it is. Nothing more nothing less. When it jumps to $600-$650 it is a rip off IMHO.
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  #102  
Old 01-10-2017, 11:53 AM
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When it jumps to $600-$650 it is a rip off IMHO.
I like my rip off, But I still enjoyed adding new furniture. I'm prone to upgrade any and everything no matter how good it is or how well it works.

I haven't seen any complete rifle from any maker that I wouldn't change something here or there to make it more for me.

I picked the S&W sport II for a few reasons, my wife said I could get a new rifle for Christmas and the sport II had good reviews was in stock and in my Christmas gift price range. If I had $1000 or $1500 or $2000 price range for Christmas I might have went with a different rifle.

Now I have the AR bug, my next complete or built by me rifle will not be a sport II but I'm happy with the one I have now.
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  #103  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:04 PM
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The Saint compares most directly with S&W's MOE Midlength, in which the Saint proves to be quite the value.

Everyone is a Sport II lover, apparently. As I'd replace everything but some base components, that would be a no go for me.

On the Saint I'd replace the handguard and pin/weld it as a 14.7" and be done with it. To each their own.
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  #104  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by hdrolling View Post
I like my rip off, But I still enjoyed adding new furniture. I'm prone to upgrade any and everything no matter how good it is or how well it works.

I haven't seen any complete rifle from any maker that I wouldn't change something here or there to make it more for me.

I picked the S&W sport II for a few reasons, my wife said I could get a new rifle for Christmas and the sport II had good reviews was in stock and in my Christmas gift price range. If I had $1000 or $1500 or $2000 price range for Christmas I might have went with a different rifle.

Now I have the AR bug, my next complete or built by me rifle will not be a sport II but I'm happy with the one I have now.
I completely understand going that route I just believe that when they are priced over $650 they are overpriced. That does not mean they are not a decent rifle.
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  #105  
Old 01-10-2017, 03:06 PM
Brian in Oregon Brian in Oregon is offline
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Originally Posted by WVSig View Post
If you want to compare then Saint based on current market and $$ to something in the S&W line I would put it up against the older version of the M&P 15T. It is going for $799- $850 but you are buying a rifle that is going to be discontinued in it current configuration.

The barrel on the 15T is great but you are going to get a quad rail which for the post part are going the way of the dinosaurs. The grip and stock are the same as the Sport II do really you are paying extra for the barrel and the outdated quad rail. Once the new Mlok version is out the price if one will push higher than the Saint.

The reason the Saint keeps getting compared to the Sport II is because at $800 there is a bit of a dead zone in the S&W offering. You jump from the $500-$600 Sport II to the normally $1000+ 15T.

To me the Saint is attempting to be like the Colt Magpul MOE additions. A basic out of the box rifle that is slightly upgraded from the GI M4 look for a slightly higher price.

I might be coming off as a SA fanboy here but I really am not. I don't own a single SA product and I have no intentions on buying a Saint. I generally don't buy complete rifles anymore. The only ones that are attractive to me are the OEM ones that ship with no furnature so I can configure that the way I want it.
One of the best constructive observations in this thread.

Instead of comparing the Saint to a less expensive entry level gun, it should be compared to guns in its own tier. That's the real question: Can it hold its own against guns in its pricing bracket? Otherwise it's just bashing a lower tier gun to make the Saint look better. The Sport II is being compared to Colt often in this thread. Unless I missed it I don't see such a comparison being made for the Saint vs Colt, etc.
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  #106  
Old 01-10-2017, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian in Oregon View Post
The Sport II is being compared to Colt often in this thread. Unless I missed it I don't see such a comparison being made for the Saint vs Colt, etc.
The main reason this is being compared to the Sport II is price. Once you pass the Sport II in the M&P line, the price goes up to over $1K. So, it most closely matches the Sport II.

Also, this started as a comparison to the S&W M&P, not other brands. It originated in the M&P15 forum and was moved here. Had it started here, it would more likely have been compared to the Colt or similar other brands.
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  #107  
Old 01-17-2017, 04:37 PM
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Would the M&P 15T be a good choice for a rifle, if it can be purchased close to the same price as the Saint? And to add another plus in the Saint's column, it comes in a plastic case, while the S&W's come in a sturdy, cardboard box.
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  #108  
Old 01-17-2017, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ftcgolf View Post
Would the M&P 15T be a good choice for a rifle, if it can be purchased close to the same price as the Saint? And to add another plus in the Saint's column, it comes in a plastic case, while the S&W's come in a sturdy, cardboard box.
Nothing wrong with the M&P 15T, if that's what you want go for it.
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  #109  
Old 01-22-2017, 03:18 AM
marathonrunner marathonrunner is offline
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Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
The Saint is a better rifle on paper than the Sport 2 is.

4150 CMV barrel vs 4140 barrel on the sport
1:8 twist vs 1:9 twist
Mid length gas system vs. carbine gas
BCM grip vs A2 grip
BCM stock vs standard M4 stock
BCM keymod hand guard with heat shields vs standard guards without heat shields
M16 BCG vs AR BCG
Upgraded trigger vs standard trigger

Probably a few things I am forgetting. Each individual will have to decide if the different features are worth the money. Personally, if it can be had for around $800, I think it makes a good alternative to the Colt LE6920. But if you don't like the BCM furniture, it probably is not the best buy available.
Everything is correct except the Saint does not use 4150 for their barrel material. Springfield will not disclose what exact metal they are using but said it is "somewhere between a 4140 and 4150" which I am not a fan of anything less than 4150. I know the 4140 is fine for most folks but the 4140 feels like a tin can compared to the 4150.
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  #110  
Old 01-25-2017, 12:09 AM
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I know the 4140 is fine for most folks but the 4140 feels like a tin can compared to the 4150.
The only difference between the two is .10% more carbon in 4150... There is no way you can "feel" the difference between the two metals.
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