Good question.

As an example... BCG comparisons.

These are the posted specs of the SAINT

BOLT CARRIER GROUP
M16 BCG w/ Carpenter 158 Steel Bolt, Shot Peened & Magnetic Particle Inspected
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These are the specs of a $99 BCG on sale at Palmetto today....

Made in USA. Bolt is made of Mil-spec Carpenter 158 steel, Shot peened, High pressure tested and Mag Particle Inspected. Gas key is machined out of bar stock, chrome lined phosphate coated, and secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec. Bolt carrier is phosphated outside and chrome lined inside.

Features:
Milspec Carpenter No. 158® steel bolt
Shot Peened Bolt
High pressure tested (HPT)
Mag particle inspected (MPI)
Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)
Chrome Lined Gas Key
Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications
Gas Key Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners
Gas Key Staked Per Mil-Spec
Tool Steel Extractor
Extractor Spring
Extractor O-ring Insert

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As far as the barrel... a mid length 41V50 Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel barrel can be purchased from PA for $119 or $99 on sale.

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SAINT the rifle.... yawn. SAINT the video way more impressive.

I own some of those BCG's (Premiums without logo- you save $10). And, I like to use PSA parts to build an AR. But, I still like the SAINT! Wide awake here, NO YAWN!

The one thing that Colt has is its military history. Some folks just plain drool over anything the military has used. And, you can't deny that those guns have been through the mill and performed well.

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Freedom isn't free.

The Colt and Springfield (minus the barrel) are both mil spec guns.

Another thing not mentioned is that the extension tube is forged/machined/rolled threads vs extruded and cut threads.

Pretty much anything will work for recreational use, though you get what you pay for.

Frankly the only thing I don't like about the Springfield is the silly "SAINT" text on the side.

The same goes with 1911s. Some people say that if it doesn't say Colt on the side, it isn't a real 1911.

Ain't that James Bond?????

Oh, and I was hoping for belt fed and a quick change barrel.....

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Even older, even crankier....

they've always said the AR was space aged, so i was hoping for one that shot lasers

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Isaiah 43:1-3

Not the same thing. Has nothing to do with the Pony.

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My point is that some people put too much stock in the name on the side of the firearm instead of the firearm itself. It is perfectly possible that someone other than Colt can and does makes a firearm of the same quality and specification. In my opinion, such thinking ends up costing a person more because the brand name can charge more just because of the implied superiority of said name brand. I believe Colt has been doing that for a while, though with the recent financial issues may have leveled the playing field a bit.

If you want top tier, just get what the military gets. Colt LE6920SOCOM version if you can find one.

If you want entry level, the M&P Sport II is a great choice.

I had a big "yawn" when I read about the SAINT from Springfield. Sorry, but I have no use for the mid-length gas system, and while the remaining features are interesting, to me it just doesn't need to be priced that much higher than the M&P Sport II.

Now, AR-type rifles are so prevalent that everyone has an opinion, and the foregoing is mine, and it is no better than that of anyone else. Thank you for reading my opinion. I have enjoyed looking over the opinions of all of the other posters to see if I can learn anything, or to see if other opinions change my mind. I am always open to that, so thanks to everyone for posting your ideas on this topic.

Good show!

And to all my lovely Colt fanboys, I'm sorry, but the military heavily uses FN rather than Colt now from what I've heard.

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Isaiah 43:1-3

Roger Moore played 'The Saint' before Bond.
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I haven't handled the Springfield rifle, but that logo looks like it was carved into the magwell. I don't like large logos like that; I even painted over the M&P logo on my Sport.
Given the wide range of choices, that logo is a deal-killer.

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Registration? NEVER!

Here's your quick-change barrel. Wait no, more like quality control issue:

Springfield Armory SAINT AR-15 - YouTube

I've got a few AR's and have owned multitudes over the years.

As long as you have a descent barrel, their all about the same. You can get into high dollar triggers, but I've never had a problem with the standard ones that come with LPK's.

You admit you know absolutely nothing about ARs or their manufacturers yet assert that the one company you know anything about has better customer service than companies you know nothing about.

As Scott Adam's Dilbert would say, "Ignorance is not a point of view".

Well, the gun was designed by Eugene Stoner at Armalite. And the M-16 I carried while in the Army was made by General Motor's Hydra-Matic Division, not Colt. So, while I will agree that the rifle has performed well, in my case none of that was attributable to Colt.

But Colt has made many guns for the military. They have been used in real battles and worked fine. So, yeah, they have been through the mill and performed well.

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Freedom isn't free.

And if you take an even closer look, you'll also find they are using a lot of BCM and DD's in some units. Last time I checked there was still a long waiting list to get a Daniel Defense due to their contract demand for the military.

As for the Saint. I wasn't overly impressed. I'm still happy with my original M&P Sport and T Modern Sporting Rifles that I've had for years with zero issues and they have held up very well.

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THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Nope. FN does supply a lot of weapons, just not a lot of ARs. Their main supply is M240 SAW and other heavy weapons. FN won the contract to supply 120,000 M4A1s. The majority of them will go to the Army.

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For years I have sat on the sideline and not purchased an AR. I am happy with my pistols. Recently went out and shot some of my friend's AR's and I was impressed. That started my curiosity.

Here in California, they just passed the death sentence on AR style guns. We have until the end of December to buy one, (or we have to go "featureless"). So I started looking for my first AR.

My friends have Daniel Defense, they are nice, but not what I wanted to spend. I also have friends with Sport II's and they like them. On my interest list was the Sport II, Saint, and the Colt.

After looking at all 3, I ended up with the Saint for my first AR. It also comes with a very good lockable hard case (something that will be required here in CA for transport). This rifle just felt better in my hands than the other 2. I am sure all are good rifles, and I know I could have saved money building my own, but since this is probably the only AR I will have here in CA, I am happy with the way it is, and possible upgrades in the future. I am sure all three manufacturers will stand behind their product, so warranties should be about equal. The Saint was priced between the M&P and the Colt. Of course all here in CA have the bullet button and 10 round magazines.

For now, I am going to shoot with the Iron sights, and maybe next year, once I have a better feel for the rifle, and what I might be shooting, I will look into optics.

As far as the marketing, I think it was overdone, but had it not been, I don't think as many of us would be talking about it. It wasn't even on my radar, until I heard the "hype" before the announcement on this and other forums, so I guess it worked for them. Not all that different from how Star Wars teases us for a year about a new movie coming out, or Apple plans giant "launch" events to promote whatever I-thing they introduce.

.... and now if this 10 day waiting period would just hurry up so I can go shoot the thing.....

More like $1640 . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I looked at the SA Saint too- then I saw the S&W M&P-15T, compared the specs and price, and the choice was easy. The M&P-15T also has a 1:8 twist, "Armonite" coated barrel, mid length gas system, but has a 10" free float quad rail and MBUS sights- a better choice for optics IMO. The M&P-15T was only $50 more than the Saint- works for me.

As far as using brand-name furniture goes, I prefer Magpul- the wobbly M4 stock will get replaced with a CTR stock, and some XTM rail covers added.

Geno

Not mine, but a fellow M&P-15T owner's

The AR15s we shoot and buy today are descendants of the M-16 you are referring to IMHO. Colt has been the standard bearer for the modern M4 type rifle for over 20 years. They have proven themselves all over the world in all sorts of conditions.

This does not mean that there are not other great rifles on the market or that others do not have strong value but it is hard to argue against Colts rep in the world of modern AR15s.

The Saint seems like a decent option but the price will have to come down below $799 before it becomes a real competitor in the market. IMHO. Once they get to the $600-$650 range they will be more of a player IMHO. As cyphertext already pointed out there are some real differences in the Saints specs.

They have a decent list of features. You can argue their real world value vs say a Sport II but for many people these will make a difference.

-Mid length gas which IMHO is best for 16" ARs.
-BCM Stock and Grip
-BCM Keymod polymer handguard which looks interesting.
-1/8 twist Melonite coated barrel.
- BCM 7075 Alum Milspec tube. (Some don't care but if I have a choice I will take 7075 over 6061.)
-158 Steel Bolt, Shot Peened & Magnetic Particle Inspected bolt
-High Quality Rear Flip up sight.
-PNT trigger group which should be smoother by virtue of the coating if nothing else over a standard GI trigger.

Just replacing the stock, the grip and the handguard 3 of the things most often swapped out on a Sport II will cost you. $100 The Sport II is going for $600 so if you are getting the Saint for $700 for many people it is a push vs the Sport II.

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Use should dictate gear!

Ok I had a good look at a SAINT in my LGS today...and I have to say, against expectations, I was really impressed! BCG was excellently machined, proper staking of the gas key, appreciated the tight rattle free fit between the upper and the lower due to the set screw they put in the rear pocket, very nice metal flip up iron sight, and I liked the BCM furniture way more than I expected, especially the handgaurd nice and slim with a good texture to it. Mostly though it just felt right, good balance. Wouldn't feel the need to mod this one at all all it needs is a red dot and it's GTG. I'm gonna trade in one of my Sport IIs against it I think, need to sleep on it, but color me impressed.

The Saint is the main story in Guns and Ammo magazine

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Thank You
Wayne

I ordered one for the store when they first became available. Meh, heavier than it should be. Features, meh. BCM furniture? BCM doesn't make a damn thing. Buying this, or any gun or item, because of brand loyalty is pretty dang silly. Every manufacturer has thrown a **** in the punch bowl. Colt, Glock, Springfield and yes, Smith all have those guns they wish they could take back. This is a decent gun. A little over priced for what you get in my opinion. If you like it, buy it.

It's true, I could get a Colt 6920 (actually I'd go 6720) for more or less the same money and that is the only thing that has me hesitating, but I really like the furniture on the Saint and to me it felt good in hand. The Colt would need at least a hand guard, grip and stock. That is of course personal preference re: the furniture.

???? Who cares if BCM "makes" the furniture or the trigger it is better than what comes on the Sport II which just about every Sport II seems to bin as soon as they buy it.

The grip the handguard and the trigger on this rifle are all better than what is on most other budget rifles. It is overpriced right now at $850 but I have already seen them as low as $750 I would guess the bottom end is $700.

At that price the better furniture no matter who "makes" it is a reasonably cost effect upgrade over other budget rifles for those who want a complete rifle. Personally I prefer building lowers and complete uppers but not everyone wants to do that.

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Use should dictate gear!

Jeeze guys, why does everybody compare absolutely everything to the sport? sports go for ~$5-6something depending on where you look and the saint goes for ~$3 more.. plus smith and wesson make more ars then just the sports.. not saying the sport is bad, but it's a basic "low end" budget rifle.

op, get whatever feels good to you.
colt boys, get back to singing "my little pony"

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Isaiah 43:1-3

It is because it seems like 90% of the sales of S&W M&P rifles are Sport IIs. Look at the threads in this section. Almost all of them are about the Sport IIs.

If you walk into your avg LGS I bet they have a Sport II but no other S&W AR15.

Add to that so many people shop exclusively on price point that the Sport II always comes up because it is just about the cheapest mass produced AR15 by a major company that people recognize.

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Use should dictate gear!

Why do you assume that? The OP asked how it compares to any M&P15.

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Freedom isn't free.

Guess it was a mixture of seeing WVSig's post and mixing up another post with this one. Just seems in general though everybody compares rifles to the sport vs a rifle that is closer to the same class wither in price or feature wise.

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Isaiah 43:1-3

Many folks will base the comparison on looks. Let's face it, from 5 ft away in a rack behind the counter, the Sport II and the Colt LE6920 look the same. And with the Sport costing what it does, many folks are trying to figure out what the other rifles do that the Sport doesn't. Sure S&W offers other rifles that compare more favorably to the Colt based on features, but if you base it on configuration only, many folks new to the platform are left wondering why that Colt costs so much more.

Agreed, I just went through this.

My wife said I could get an AR for Christmas and it's been on my bucket list for a while.

So before she changed her mind I reviewed AR's on line, the two that were always in everyone's online top 10 list in my price range were the Colt and the sport II.

I called our local store and asked if they had one of each in stock, they had one colt and 6 sport II's.

When I went to look the colt was a lightweight model and they wanted $1400sih for it, a little more than I wanted to pay for a base AR.

They had one sport II that they already installed a drop in rail hand gaurd/ pistol grip/butt stock/cheapo reflex sight and an angled forward grip for $900.

The sport II looked and felt better for my first owned AR, so that's why I bought it. I have added a Magpul BAD and a Raptor charging handle but other than that plan to leave at least the upper alone.

I have my eye on a DDm4v11 upper receiver that a buddy is selling that I can add a scope to and just switch out at the range with my sport II upper.

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M&P15 sport II, Retired Army

Those MFT minimalist stocks are really nice. Have a google you can do a nice mod adding a paracord cobra weave to it.

I used to build my own AR's. Only a few, but, it was the smart thing to do. And, being that the prices are low right now, and will continue to drop, (Thanks D.T. ) it only makes sense to build your own, ONLY IF YOU'RE CAPABLE of doing so!
I currently own (2) AR's; A Sport I, and an AR-556. I don't favor one or the other. They each have their good points and bad, but, thats to be expected.
Member WVSig gives great advice about building budget AR's, but, with good quality parts! I'm sure that the Colt Fanboys would turn their noses up to this. But hey, to each their own. With the new SAINT out now, I "might" pick it over a Colt. I really can't say for sure because I have yet to shoot one. But, the stats on it (SAINT) sure look good on paper!

Really?

The metallurgy of 4150 vs. 4140 steel is immaterial to all but most abusive shooters. For most, the difference will only matter to the shooter's grandchildren.

The mid-length gas system is something of note as every inch makes a big difference in the temperature (and hence errosivity) of the returning gas.

Everything else in the post is a matter of personal preference and so only makes one rifle "better" than another in the opinion of the particular buyer. These are not absolute superiorities.

Yes really. The barrel is better from a pure objective standpoint in terms of longevity. It might not matter to the avg guy plinking 500 rounds a year but that does not change objective reality.

The trigger is objectively better. Pull the trigger on the avg Sport II vas a BCM with the PNT or the Saint and the BCM made trigger is better. It is smoother and crisper than the one found in a Sport II.

Heat shielded hand guards are a positive. S&W leaves them off as a cost cutting measure they are not removed to improve the rifle. Only downside to them is a small amount of weight.

I think we both agree on the mid length gas system is an improvement. I would also put the bolt carrier group as an objective improvement. If you could have a tested FA bolt vs a SA untested bolt for the same price which you take?

The rest of the upgrades are subjective in their value but if you look at this forum closely, and I know you do, you will see that the most common alterations of the Sport II rifles are the grip, the stock and the foregrip. Many find the parts bin before ever making it to the range. Even if you like othe designs better the grip and the stock are improvements over the stock GI configuration found on the Sport II.

I agree that some people might not see as much value in the furnature as others but the Saint is a little higher up the food chain then the budget Sport II. IMHO YMMV

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Use should dictate gear!

If you want to compare then Saint based on current market and $$ to something in the S&W line I would put it up against the older version of the M&P 15T. It is going for $799- $850 but you are buying a rifle that is going to be discontinued in it current configuration.

The barrel on the 15T is great but you are going to get a quad rail which for the post part are going the way of the dinosaurs. The grip and stock are the same as the Sport II do really you are paying extra for the barrel and the outdated quad rail. Once the new Mlok version is out the price if one will push higher than the Saint.

The reason the Saint keeps getting compared to the Sport II is because at $800 there is a bit of a dead zone in the S&W offering. You jump from the $500-$600 Sport II to the normally $1000+ 15T.

To me the Saint is attempting to be like the Colt Magpul MOE additions. A basic out of the box rifle that is slightly upgraded from the GI M4 look for a slightly higher price.

I might be coming off as a SA fanboy here but I really am not. I don't own a single SA product and I have no intentions on buying a Saint. I generally don't buy complete rifles anymore. The only ones that are attractive to me are the OEM ones that ship with no furnature so I can configure that the way I want it.

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Use should dictate gear!

I try not to get into these discussions. I go with what's been proven. I don't care that I live in suburbia and not in a futuristic Mad Max Walking Dead apocalypse. Everything else is background noise. Especially when the differences are only a $100 or two dollars

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Please tell me this is not a serious inquiry.

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The Penetration Channel

And so you went with... LOL

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Use should dictate gear!

I went with 2 Colts. 6920 and 6721. Both were used police rifles that cost me around $700 OTD

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Nothing wrong with a Colt. I still like my old LEO marked 6920, back when they came with a carry handle, even with the Surefire Quadrail I put on it years ago. I take it out whenever I make pizzas so I can grate the cheese. LOL

In all seriousness the Colt is a quality proven rifle that will get the job done and is a great choice. The only downside to Colts are the cost of ownership and buying a used patrol rifle is a great way to avoid that downside!

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Use should dictate gear!

I prefer my COLT LE6940 to any on the market.

Do you run it stock?

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Use should dictate gear!

Yes really.

You sound like you disagree on the barrel material, yet you admit that the difference could be advantageous to abusive shooters and to the shooter's grandchildren... so really you do agree with me. Because if you look back at what I said, I said it is a better rifle "on paper".

Looks like you agree that the midlength gas system has some advantageous over the carbine.

I agree that furniture is a personal preference, but almost any hand guard with a heat shield is better than what comes on the Sport. (yet I still have the factory furniture on my Sport )

Full auto bolt carrier vs semi auto bolt carrier... Maybe the advantages can only be measured by guys in lab coats, but they agree that it is better for the reliability of the rifle. After all, the semi auto bolt was brought on by gun control measures to ensure that a semi rifle could not be modified into a full auto, not because it was better for the operation of the rifle. Again, still using what came stock in my Sport, as I wouldn't spend money to replace a working part, but when buying one for a build, I bought the full auto carrier.

Trigger... a slicked up trigger is better than a stock trigger. If I were buying a replacement trigger, it may not be the one I would choose, but it could be enough improvement to make a guy stick with it vs. a replacement trigger. Again, my Sport has the stock trigger... rifle built for my son does not have a stock GI trigger.

With a good shooter and quality ammo, does all of this make a difference that can be seen at the range? Maybe, maybe not. But on paper, spec wise, the Saint is the better rifle. Whether it is the better buy for your use is a different conversation.

Looks like we've about covered the subject of the Saint and any possible comparison to the Sport.

(from Long Guns M&P Section)

Gentlemen, this isn't the "AR" section. It's the M&P AR section. Now that doesn't mean we can't mention other brands or comperatives when it's relevant and fits into a discussion, but threads dedicated to another brand need to go in the other brand section.

We'll move this thread here -

http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearm...-other-brands/

i purchased a sport 2 nib two days ago for 499.99

Can not see spending three hundred for nothing, Picked up new mp shield 9 mm for 350.
So much for getting the saint lol

Your assertion only works if you like the Bravo Company furniture that comes standard on the Saint. Otherwise you'll spend an extra $100 upgrading the Saint as well.