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01-20-2017, 04:02 PM
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How is this Mossberg Shockwave legal?
590 Shockwave - 6 Shot | O.F. Mossberg & Sons
American Rifleman | SHOT Show 2017: Mossberg 590 Shockwave
It is over 26" in length, but has a 14" barrel. Apparently it is not considered an SBS or an NFA or an AOW or any other other alphabet thing making it illegal/difficult to own.
I have read some of the explanations. I guess the fact that it was never fitted with or intended to be fitted with a buttstock makes all the difference.
So - I can just walk into a store and buy one, the same as buying an H&R Topper?
Please - I know these shorty shotguns inspire strong reactions, mostly of the "its not good for anything" variety. I just want to know how it avoids the usual governmental encumbrances a 14" barreled shotgun usually brings.
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01-20-2017, 04:09 PM
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It was manufactured as delivered. 26"+ oal. Trim some off the stock and you will have a problem.
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01-20-2017, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigggbbruce
It was manufactured as delivered. 26"+ oal. Trim some off the stock and you will have a problem.
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But I always thought it was a two-part test: 26" OAL and a barrel at least 18" long.
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01-20-2017, 04:21 PM
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I am not completely fresh on the laws so I urge you to search this information.
But to modify an existing long barrel it must not be shorter than 18". The gun you've referenced was manufactured with a barrel shorter than 18" and must remain 26"+ and keep the birdshead grip.
Last edited by bigggbbruce; 01-20-2017 at 04:24 PM.
Reason: meant not fresh on the laws
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01-20-2017, 04:22 PM
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They must have caught someone asleep at the BATFE, or someone who doesn't know how to read their own regulations. I suspect this will not stand and it will be reclassified as an AOW.
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01-20-2017, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigggbbruce
I am completely fresh on the laws so I urge you to search this information.
But to modify an existing long barrel it must not be shorter than 18". The gun you've referenced was manufactured with a barrel shorter than 18" and must remain 26"+ and keep the birdshead grip.
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I find this hard to believe, or we would have already seen lots of shotguns manufactured with a buttstock and a shorty barrel. I agree with sigp220.45 - 26" OAL and 18" barrel minimums.
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01-20-2017, 04:30 PM
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If it has a rifled barrel it is legal. Makes it a pistol just like an AR pistol.
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01-20-2017, 04:38 PM
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My understanding is similar to say a Thompson Contender with a 14" barrel shooting rifle calibers. It's a pistol. Or an AR15 with a 7" barrel.. designed as a pistol. Why not a shotgun designed as a pistol. Just sayin' that's how I've heard it.
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01-20-2017, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 29aholic
If it has a rifled barrel it is legal. Makes it a pistol just like an AR pistol.
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A handgun over .50 caliber is considered a "destructive device" with all the attendant restrictions and a $200 tax.
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01-20-2017, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 29aholic
If it has a rifled barrel it is legal. Makes it a pistol just like an AR pistol.
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Its not rifled. Regular smoothbore shotgun barrel.
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01-20-2017, 04:56 PM
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Do you have any contacts at the ATF?
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01-20-2017, 04:58 PM
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TC
TC makes shotgun barrels, but I think that they are all rifled.
Here's SC laws
(b) "Sawed-off shotgun" means a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than eighteen inches in length or a weapon made from a shotgun which as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches or a barrel or barrels of less than eighteen inches in length.
(c) "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger. The term includes any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell but does not include an antique firearm as defined in this section.
(d) "Sawed-off rifle" means a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than sixteen inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle which as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches or a barrel or barrels of less than sixteen inches in length.
------
Since it was not modified and it has the 26" overall length, I'll bet its' ok. For now.
You can check the net for laws in your own state.
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Last edited by rwsmith; 01-20-2017 at 05:07 PM.
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01-20-2017, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arik
Do you have any contacts at the ATF?
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Not anymore.
I'm sure Mossberg has some assurances from ATF that it is legal to sell without a tax stamp.
I may buy one before they change their mind.
In doing some further reading it seems that this is not a shotgun, since it was never manufactured with a shoulder stock. It is an "other" on the 4473. If you make one from an existing shotgun you need to jump through the SBS hoops. But as is, this is good to go as long as it is 26" OAL.
State law may disagree.
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Last edited by sigp220.45; 01-20-2017 at 05:23 PM.
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01-20-2017, 05:54 PM
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From Shockwave:
I get a lot of questions from customers about the “new” ATF ruling regarding pistol-grip-only (PGO) firearms with 14″ barrels that aren’t considered NFA items.
Well, first off, let me say, it’s not a new ruling. It’s the same position that ATF has always taken regarding PGO firearms that fire a fixed shotgun shell that have NEVER had a buttstock attached to them—they’re NOT shotguns! They’re simply firearms. As such, they don’t necessarily need to have 18″+ barrels on them to remain out of the purview of the NFA.
You see, the very definition of a “shotgun” requires that it be “designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder…” Without a buttstock ever having been fitted to the PGO firearms in question, they can’t be fired from the shoulder and are therefore not shotguns. Hence, with a 14″ barrel, they can’t be considered short-barreled shotguns, as they aren’t shotguns to begin with. Read the full definition of a shotgun here.
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01-20-2017, 06:02 PM
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Well, learn something new every day. Had no idea that there was an "other" category. So it's rifle, shotgun, handgun, and "other"?
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01-20-2017, 06:34 PM
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Appears to be out of stock everywhere and also no sales in CA or NY, good news for the rest of us.
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01-20-2017, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom K
I find this hard to believe, or we would have already seen lots of shotguns manufactured with a buttstock and a shorty barrel. I agree with sigp220.45 - 26" OAL and 18" barrel minimums.
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There is a company that sells mossbergs and Remingtons in this configuration for $500-600 and has been for years. Perfectly legal if it started out as a pistol and not a full length shotgun
The 18" barrel length only applies to shotguns that did not start out as a "handgun"
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01-20-2017, 09:34 PM
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This a long gun! Period.
This configuration just can not begin as a fully stocked shotgun.
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01-20-2017, 11:22 PM
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Whatever it is, I'm sure Gator McClusky wants one.
: )
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01-21-2017, 12:13 AM
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Kind of like Male, Female and "Other"............
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01-21-2017, 12:24 AM
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The 590 Shockwave exists due to the best loophole. There exists a realm in American firearms law that allows for a non-NFA Mossberg 500 with 14-inchch barrel to exist. Without going into too deep into the why a Mossberg 590 that has never had a stock attached to it, and is longer than 26 inches is not considered a shotgun and considered a firearm. This puts the weapon’s legal definition as a firearm and not a shotgun. So barrel length isn’t an issue as long as the overall length is longer than 26 inches and it lacks a stock. ... From thearmsguide.com
Last edited by Richard M; 01-21-2017 at 12:25 AM.
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01-21-2017, 12:34 AM
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Maybe if you live in one of those Tiny Houses with a Tiny gun safe it would be a good fit for you. It can't be all that much fun to shoot more than once or twice, but by then I'd guess the situation would be resolved.
I had a friend with an old sawed-off 10 gauge side-by-side that ripped your wrist off, but it sure did a number on a close by target.
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01-21-2017, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clang444
Whatever it is, I'm sure Gator McClusky wants one.
: )
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Or James Caan (Mississippi)......
Chuck
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01-21-2017, 08:09 AM
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To confuse the matter some more, if young Tommy, on his 18th birthday, goes down to Joes Gun Shop to buy a Mossberg 500, that's fine, as it's a shotgun. But if he wants a Mossberg Cruiser, which has a pistol grip instead of a buttstock, he can't do it.
No buttstock means can't be fired from shoulder means NOT A SHOTGUN means he must be 21.
Now ain't that just plumb idiotic.
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01-21-2017, 09:18 AM
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Back in the day I would have thought one would really be fun to play with. Now old and with arthritis I doubt if it would be fun. Larry
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01-21-2017, 10:07 AM
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So, are there any actually available to purchase anywhere? I see lots of articles but nobody seems to have them in stock. Did they sell out or have they not been delivered to retail stores yet?
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01-21-2017, 10:52 AM
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If I see one I'll buy it on the spot. Great "golf" cart gun.
Btw, never heard of those Aguila mini shotshells before now.
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01-21-2017, 11:55 AM
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*sign me up*
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01-21-2017, 12:36 PM
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Is it totally practical...nope
Is it niche...yeap
Am I going to use it in a class...nope
Do it dig it?..you betcha
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01-21-2017, 12:47 PM
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Just glad it is legal.
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01-21-2017, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrad
So, are there any actually available to purchase anywhere? I see lots of articles but nobody seems to have them in stock. Did they sell out or have they not been delivered to retail stores yet?
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They probably just came out for SHOT, so I'm betting not just on shelves yet.
Shockwave does sell the PG separately. You could just take a PGO Mossy and put it on and trim the barrel down. The Shockwave PG is long enough to keep the OAL past 26". A conventional PG isn't long enough. You'd just have to remember to start with a PGO and not something that ever had a stock on it.
I bought one of the Shockwave PG's back when they first came out. Regardless of utility, they are more comfortable to use than a conventional PG. Not as hard on the web of your hand and your wrist. You can also use the tang safety on the Mossy easier too.
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01-21-2017, 01:06 PM
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This Mossberg has a really neat look to it. I have read the BATFE regs a few times prior and do not see how this is not an AOW. If it is legal, you would probably be well served to carry a copy of the determination letter around with the gun. I think most street cops will see the barrel less than 18" and call it SBS or AOW depending on their interpretation, and it may not be 50 states legal either.
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01-21-2017, 05:49 PM
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I'll bet a Police officer would just love to find
one in a car during a routine traffic violation.
Neat little piece. Would be an awesome "indoor sweeper"
with mild enough loads.
Somebody, somewhere, will
get detained. Legally or not. I'm betting......
Just my 2 cents worth.
Chuck
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01-21-2017, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAFireman
This Mossberg has a really neat look to it. I have read the BATFE regs a few times prior and do not see how this is not an AOW. If it is legal, you would probably be well served to carry a copy of the determination letter around with the gun. I think most street cops will see the barrel less than 18" and call it SBS or AOW depending on their interpretation, and it may not be 50 states legal either.
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I agree..........
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01-21-2017, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jingles
From Shockwave:
I get a lot of questions from customers about the “new” ATF ruling regarding pistol-grip-only (PGO) firearms with 14″ barrels that aren’t considered NFA items.
Well, first off, let me say, it’s not a new ruling. It’s the same position that ATF has always taken regarding PGO firearms that fire a fixed shotgun shell that have NEVER had a buttstock attached to them—they’re NOT shotguns! They’re simply firearms. As such, they don’t necessarily need to have 18″+ barrels on them to remain out of the purview of the NFA.
You see, the very definition of a “shotgun” requires that it be “designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder…” Without a buttstock ever having been fitted to the PGO firearms in question, they can’t be fired from the shoulder and are therefore not shotguns. Hence, with a 14″ barrel, they can’t be considered short-barreled shotguns, as they aren’t shotguns to begin with. Read the full definition of a shotgun here.
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With all that as an explanation,,then why wouldn't BATF allow the 'Judge' in 28ga that was shown at the SHOT Show a year or 2 ago to be sold on the market, but instead the BATF ordered it pulled from commercial sales.
It's a PGO firearm,,it can't be fired from the shoulder as a butt stock was never designed nor fitted to the gun and they fire fixed shotgun shell.
(The 410 Judge gets a pass cause it also chambers and fires the 45Colt and is rifled)
If never having a butt stock fitted to the gun by the factory, firing a fixed shotgun shell and having short bbls (less than 18"in length) simply put the gun under a 'firearm(?)' classification (outside of NFA rules),,then Ithaca Auto&Burglar guns both Flues and NID models should be legal to own w/o NFA registration,,but they are not.
Remington Model 17P (Police) 20ga pump shotguns (14" bbl w/ pistol grip stock as mfg by Remington Arms Co commonly called the Whippet) should be legal to own w/o NFA registration,,but they are not.
Something is amiss. If it is truely mfg as a handgun, it is a smoothbore and that alone places it in NFA territory.
..and FWIW,, the BATF NFA manual currently states the bbl length/overall length thing as 'either/or' when refering to a weapon MADE FROM a rifle or a shotgun.
The OAL is less than 26" OR the bbl length is less than 16" (rifle) 18" (shotgun).
In NFA speak,,a 'Rifle' is a shoulder fired firearm w/a bbl less than 16"
A 'Shotgun' is a shoulder fired firearm w/a bbl less than 18".
The AOW (Any Other Weapon) is the catch-all for the rest of the firearms that don't neatly fall into the above.
H&R Handy Guns, Ithaca Auto&Burglar Guns, MArbles Game Getters, Remington M17 Police 'Whippet' Shotgun, Smoothbore revolvers, disguised guns like pen guns & lighter guns,ect.
Interesting though. I'd like to see how it was all sorted out.
Last edited by 2152hq; 01-21-2017 at 11:04 PM.
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01-21-2017, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
With all that as an explanation,,then why wouldn't BATF allow the 'Judge' in 28ga that was shown at the SHOT Show a year or 2 ago to be sold on the market, but instead the BATF ordered it pulled from commercial sales.
It's a PGO firearm,,it can't be fired from the shoulder as a butt stock was never designed nor fitted to the gun and they fire fixed shotgun shell.
(The 410 Judge gets a pass cause it also chambers and fires the 45Colt and is rifled).
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The 28 gauge Judge wasn't 26" long, which appears to be mandatory for this type of "other".
The Mossberg isn't a handgun or a shotgun.
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01-21-2017, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAFireman
This Mossberg has a really neat look to it. I have read the BATFE regs a few times prior and do not see how this is not an AOW. If it is legal, you would probably be well served to carry a copy of the determination letter around with the gun. I think most street cops will see the barrel less than 18" and call it SBS or AOW depending on their interpretation, and it may not be 50 states legal either.
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Gotta believe Mossberg would include a copy of such a letter addressed to them from ATF explaining the status of the gun under Federal law. Do you really think the Shockwave would not be permissible in CA or NY!!??
Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
P.S. A few years ago, there was a short-barrel AR-15 firearm mfg'd by Sig/Sauer (IIRC) with a "hand or arm support" or some such name masquerading as a stock. People were predicting ATF would come down on that item. Anyone know if they did?
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01-22-2017, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaaskop49
P.S. A few years ago, there was a short-barrel AR-15 firearm mfg'd by Sig/Sauer (IIRC) with a "hand or arm support" or some such name masquerading as a stock. People were predicting ATF would come down on that item. Anyone know if they did?
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Yes and no. At first ATF put out a letter stating it was ok to shoulder the MCX pistol with folding brace and then they changed their minds. They claimed that anyone shouldering this weapon was making a design change and that it would be considered a SBR. I got one of these almost 2 yrs ago and had it SBR'd by July that year not wanting any hassle if someone saw me shouldering it. In my opinion SBR's should be removed from NFA along with suppressors. Stupid laws, collecting tax money from those who would like to own such things. Criminals don't obey laws anyway.
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01-22-2017, 12:47 AM
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01-22-2017, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard M
The 590 Shockwave exists due to the best loophole. There exists a realm in American firearms law that allows for a non-NFA Mossberg 500 with 14-inchch barrel to exist. Without going into too deep into the why a Mossberg 590 that has never had a stock attached to it, and is longer than 26 inches is not considered a shotgun and considered a firearm. This puts the weapon’s legal definition as a firearm and not a shotgun. So barrel length isn’t an issue as long as the overall length is longer than 26 inches and it lacks a stock. ... From thearmsguide.com
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Exactly. I have a Mossberg 500 Cruiser Breacher built and shipped with a pistol grip. I can order from Mossberg all the parts to convert and put on the 14" barrel and shorter mag tube, and it is 100% legal. The key is that, as stated above, it NEVER had a shoulder stock. Thus can't be a shotgun. Now, if I ever put a shoulder stock on it, even if I take it back off, it now becomes a shotgun forever. Legally speaking. Same argument as an AR pistol and you shoulder a Sig brace. Now a rifle forever, and you just committed a felony, because you "made" a Short Barreled Rifle, which you aren't licensed to manufacture, nor are you licensed to own.
From here The 14″ Mossberg 500 That ISN’T NFA! | Shockwave Technologies
"You see, the very definition of a “shotgun” requires that it be “designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder…” Without a buttstock ever having been fitted to the PGO firearms in question, they can’t be fired from the shoulder and are therefore not shotguns. Hence, with a 14″ barrel, they can’t be considered short-barreled shotguns, as they aren’t shotguns to begin with. Read the full definition of a shotgun here." The Shockwave Tech link above has links to the ATF letters and determinations.
Last edited by Racer X; 01-22-2017 at 01:35 AM.
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01-22-2017, 02:02 AM
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I kind of want one. With zombie green furniture and an axe head clamped to the muzzle end.
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01-22-2017, 09:00 AM
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If you think the Shockwave is interesting...check this out.
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01-22-2017, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
How is this Mossberg Shockwave legal?
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It must because it does not have "the shoulder thing that goes up"
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01-22-2017, 10:59 AM
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I would have thought a 12 gauge hand gun would have been all kinds of illegal ! Interpretation of the rules is paramount.
I witnessed a policeman try to dispatch a rabid dog that was terrorizing our neighborhood , walking and riding paths on my street.
He had a stockless 12 ga. pump, the dog started for him and from point blank range, talking 6 feet when he fired , he missed 4 times!
I watched it and couldn't believe what I saw. Those things aren't easy to shoot accurately when you are shooting under pressure ! I decided right then and there I didn't need a stockless pump shotgun. A double barrel Howdah pistol would be fun to play with though .
Gary
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02-01-2017, 01:02 AM
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Got one on pre order from Buds. I don't think they have been released anyswheres yet.
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02-01-2017, 05:38 AM
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I had one in my hands 2 weeks ago I could have paid and walked out the door . It is not a shotgun .
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02-01-2017, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triaxle
I had one in my hands 2 weeks ago I could have paid and walked out the door . It is not a shotgun .
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Did you like it? Did it seem shorter than a standard 500?
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02-01-2017, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom K
Well, learn something new every day. Had no idea that there was an "other" category. So it's rifle, shotgun, handgun, and "other"?
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It's the same category a stripped ar15 lower would go under.
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02-01-2017, 10:15 AM
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I want to get a grip ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross3914
... Shockwave does sell the PG separately. You could just take a PGO Mossy and put it on and trim the barrel down... A conventional PG isn't long enough. You'd just have to remember to start with a PGO and not something that ever had a stock on it... Regardless of utility, they are more comfortable to use than a conventional PG. Not as hard on the web of your hand and your wrist. You can also use the tang safety on the Mossy easier too.
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Good to hear that the birdshead PG will be available. I have a Mossberg "Cruiser" that has the conventional pistol grip on it and I can see the utility of that style grip. Head thumper comes to mind, but with a carbide tip screwed into it it would also be a good window exploder rescue tool.
digiroc
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02-01-2017, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45
How is this Mossberg Shockwave legal?
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I think Mossberg explains it well enough right here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45
So - I can just walk into a store and buy one, the same as buying an H&R Topper?
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I doubt it, for the simple reason that Mossberg hasn't shipped enough of the things yet. But when they do arrive in volume at LGSs, yeah, you can walk in and buy one with no tax stamp. Projected retail right now is $449.
I have one on special order right now...no telling how long it'll take to get here. The owner of one large LGS tells me he has them on order from Mossberg, but no projected delivery date yet.
And in the end, does it really matter how it's legal? Why get all involved in the intracacies of federal law and BATFE rules. Mossberg isn't going to manufacture, ship, and sell an illegal firearm.
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